Cortes traded to Padres

[LouisEly]

13 hours ago, BrewerFan said:

It made no sense to trade away a kid who turned 18 two months ago because you have good players ahead of him. You certainly didn't trade him for much value. You traded him for a guy who's likely not going to stay on the roster when Chourio is back. All for the privilege of moving Cortes?

In the July Brewerfanatic prospect voting, 39 different players received votes but Quintana was not one of them:

https://brewerfanatic.com/forums/topic/45667-july-prospect-voting-is-closed/page/3/#comment-1674568

I agree that they should have kept Cortes, but if you can't trade away a guy who was at least #30 on the team prospect list, if not lower, for a major league stopgap during a playoff run when you know you're going to be short at a position, then I'd argue that you're not a good GM.

[adambr2]

Lockridge looks more or less like the 5th outfielder that he looked like when we acquired him. His bat has been a bit better than advertised and his glove has been a bit worse than advertised, in small sample sizes.

I don’t care much about losing Quintana, who has a minuscule chance of ever even making the big leagues someday.

But, Cortes would be the more impactful player than Lockridge right now for the Brewers.

[BrewerFan]

6 hours ago, LouisEly said:

In the July Brewerfanatic prospect voting, 39 different players received votes but Quintana was not one of them:

 That's a fun little exercise, but it's not at all something I'm going to put much weight in. 

That the LA Scouting thought he was worth 1.7M 2 years ago, that he's an 18 year old Switch Hitting SS who's 6'2 with a projectable frame and who just turned 18 during this season, THAT'S my reason. January of 2024, he was the highest rated LA player we'd EVER signed aside from Lara back in '14. Trade Deadline 2025, we move him+Nestor Cortes+money for... Brandon Lockridge? I can't buy the argument that Lockridge was worth a free #5 pitcher and that lottery ticket. 

I'm pretty certain Lockridge wouldn't have gotten a vote in the Brewerfanatic July Prospect voting either, but he is a 28 year old OFer who's #1 skill is his speed(and it's not even close to his other tools).

Feranando Tatis Jr wasn't a top 30 prospect when the White Sox traded him. Peralta wasn't a top 30 prospect when he was traded. I'm also not saying he's going to be Tatis Jr, but I am saying... I'm not trading a kid that young who had the tools he did for such a little return.

I put that argument in the same pile I put the 'Quintana was useless because we had Pratt, Made and then...Pena I guess could be a SS.'

It's the type of trade you PROBABLY won't care about in 2-3-4 years, but it's not like you got any value for him now anyway. So I'd rather see you keep that player...especially as it's  not like he's blocking anyone in LowA next year, and see if the tools you JUST thought was worth 1.7M develop. 

[SF70]

11 minutes ago, BrewerFan said:

 That's a fun little exercise, but it's not at all something I'm going to put much weight in. 

That the LA Scouting thought he was worth 1.7M 2 years ago, that he's an 18 year old Switch Hitting SS who's 6'2 with a projectable frame and who just turned 18 during this season, THAT'S my reason. January of 2024, he was the highest rated LA player we'd EVER signed aside from Lara back in '14. Trade Deadline 2025, we move him+Nestor Cortes+money for... Brandon Lockridge? I can't buy the argument that Lockridge was worth a free #5 pitcher and that lottery ticket. 

I'm pretty certain Lockridge wouldn't have gotten a vote in the Brewerfanatic July Prospect voting either, but he is a 28 year old OFer who's #1 skill is his speed(and it's not even close to his other tools).

Feranando Tatis Jr wasn't a top 30 prospect when the White Sox traded him. Peralta wasn't a top 30 prospect when he was traded. I'm also not saying he's going to be Tatis Jr, but I am saying... I'm not trading a kid that young who had the tools he did for such a little return.

I put that argument in the same pile I put the 'Quintana was useless because we had Pratt, Made and then...Pena I guess could be a SS.'

It's the type of trade you PROBABLY won't care about in 2-3-4 years, but it's not like you got any value for him now anyway. So I'd rather see you keep that player...especially as it's  not like he's blocking anyone in LowA next year, and see if the tools you JUST thought was worth 1.7M develop. 

Guessing Nestor wouldn’t have been too happy pitching out of the team’s bullpen. Don’t think the team wanted to disrupt the current rotation to make room for Cortez.

I’ll take Patrick over Nestor as the team’s 6th starter anyhow. Besides, his elbow is a ticking time-bomb.

You are also ignoring why the team targeted Lockridge in the first place. They needed a CF that could play for the big-club the month of August with Chourio down, Frelick dinged-up, Collins planned paternity and Perkins still not running at full speed.

They deemed Quintana expendable. 

The need for today with this WS contending team supersedes retaining a prospect, at best, 4 years from the bigs, and at worst, too large a hole in his bat to ever get to the bigs as more than a utility player.

Surprised at the lack of deference to the best FO in the game by some over this trade-deadline move.

[BrewerFan]

46 minutes ago, SF70 said:

Guessing Nestor wouldn’t have been too happy pitching out of the team’s bullpen. Don’t think the team wanted to disrupt the current rotation to make room for Cortez.

 

Cortes was traded JUST before the deadline. He doesn't have to be happy, he's under contract and making an issue of it is only going to make him look bad at this point. Plus, we would have used him to start. 

But I don't care about trading Cortes. That's beside the point. 

48 minutes ago, SF70 said:

I’ll take Patrick over Nestor as the team’s 6th starter anyhow. Besides, his elbow is a ticking time-bomb.

Ok... still not my issue. And his elbow only needs to hold up the rest of this year, but that's still not the point. 

They took on all the risk that he'd get injured again anyway by paying his salary... but that you prefer Patrick over Cortes, I don't know how that pertains to anything I've said. 

I started off disagreeing that Quintana was "immaterial," because of the depth we have at SS. Is Ebel "immaterial?" I mean... of course not. That'd be a silly argument to make. 

49 minutes ago, SF70 said:

You are also ignoring why the team targeted Lockridge in the first place. They needed a CF that could play for the big-club the month of August with Chourio down, Frelick dinged-up, Collins planned paternity and Perkins still not running at full speed.

I am forgetting a lot of that because there's a lot of revisionist history here. I don't remember anyone clamoring for another OFer(one that hasn't even played much CF). 

Perkins had been back for about 2 weeks by then and he'd been well on his way in AAA. He's been running just fine. Collins planned paternity? No, I don't buy that as particularly good reason.

59 minutes ago, SF70 said:

They deemed Quintana expendable. 

....right. Yeah, no, I understand that. I never said he wasn't "expendable." I did say he wasn't "Immaterial," because of the depth we have at SS. 

1 hour ago, SF70 said:

The need for today with this WS contending team supersedes retaining a prospect, at best, 4 years from the bigs, and at worst, too large a hole in his bat to ever get to the bigs as more than a utility player.

Well... by that logic, you would have gone out and gotten Suarez as and given up Henderson or whomever they needed, right? 

The whole "tool large a hole in his bat to ever get to the bigs..." is nonsense. Again, 18 years old. He'll be 18 when next season starts, but you've deemed his swing irreparably damaged? C'mon...

This doesn't seem to be getting through, but it's also trading him when he has...no value. 

 

I'm also curious how you can state Preller was "enamored" with Quintana and then talk about how he's "at best" a utility man 4 years from now. How many Shortstops do they need to find before you start to realize... if they're "enamored" with someone, you should probably hold onto him? They've traded away several elite Shortstops under Preller, they have more than a couple on their roster who could be or did play Shortstops and moved so they could get called up earlier like Merrill or due to injury with Tatis Jr.  

 

1 hour ago, SF70 said:

Surprised at the lack of deference to the best FO in the game by some over this trade-deadline move.

This started because you said "Quintana was immaterial because of MLB best SS depth." That's what I disagreed with. 

 

I can hold two thoughts at once. 

1-The Brewers front office is... incredible. One of the best at player development in the game. The Padres are pretty damn good as well, they just keep trading their young studs, but... setting that aside.

2-I can ALSO disagree with a transaction... such as not protecting Shane Smith, trading Reece Olson. I've also been wrong about trades. 

[SF70]

26 minutes ago, BrewerFan said:

Cortes was traded JUST before the deadline. He doesn't have to be happy, he's under contract and making an issue of it is only going to make him look bad at this point. Plus, we would have used him to start. 

But I don't care about trading Cortes. That's beside the point. 

Ok... still not my issue. And his elbow only needs to hold up the rest of this year, but that's still not the point. 

They took on all the risk that he'd get injured again anyway by paying his salary... but that you prefer Patrick over Cortes, I don't know how that pertains to anything I've said. 

I started off disagreeing that Quintana was "immaterial," because of the depth we have at SS. Is Ebel "immaterial?" I mean... of course not. That'd be a silly argument to make. 

I am forgetting a lot of that because there's a lot of revisionist history here. I don't remember anyone clamoring for another OFer(one that hasn't even played much CF). 

Perkins had been back for about 2 weeks by then and he'd been well on his way in AAA. He's been running just fine. Collins planned paternity? No, I don't buy that as particularly good reason.

....right. Yeah, no, I understand that. I never said he wasn't "expendable." I did say he wasn't "Immaterial," because of the depth we have at SS. 

Well... by that logic, you would have gone out and gotten Suarez as and given up Henderson or whomever they needed, right? 

The whole "tool large a hole in his bat to ever get to the bigs..." is nonsense. Again, 18 years old. He'll be 18 when next season starts, but you've deemed his swing irreparably damaged? C'mon...

This doesn't seem to be getting through, but it's also trading him when he has...no value. 

 

I'm also curious how you can state Preller was "enamored" with Quintana and then talk about how he's "at best" a utility man 4 years from now. How many Shortstops do they need to find before you start to realize... if they're "enamored" with someone, you should probably hold onto him? They've traded away several elite Shortstops under Preller, they have more than a couple on their roster who could be or did play Shortstops and moved so they could get called up earlier like Merrill or due to injury with Tatis Jr.  

 

This started because you said "Quintana was immaterial because of MLB best SS depth." That's what I disagreed with. 

 

I can hold two thoughts at once. 

1-The Brewers front office is... incredible. One of the best at player development in the game. The Padres are pretty damn good as well, they just keep trading their young studs, but... setting that aside.

2-I can ALSO disagree with a transaction... such as not protecting Shane Smith, trading Reece Olson. I've also been wrong about trades. 

Really like your posts over the years and agree with just about every one of them but disagree with your take here.

Also, really don’t like the tone you took with me  —  rather confrontational imo, and unnecessary.

Bottom-line for me — either you trust the FO on this one or you don’t — I do and you don’t and that’s fine. 

 

[LouisEly]

54 minutes ago, BrewerFan said:

Cortes was traded JUST before the deadline.

 

54 minutes ago, BrewerFan said:

I am forgetting a lot of that because there's a lot of revisionist history here. I don't remember anyone clamoring for another OFer(one that hasn't even played much CF). 

Chourio tweaked his hamstring on 7/30.  They had an idea that he could be out for a while.  They also knew that Collins was going on paternity leave soon.  And they knew that Frelick's knee wasn't 100%.  And I don't know who Perkins went on bereavement leave for, but if it was an elderly grandparent or someone who was in poor health and was likely to pass soon, that makes four OFs who they knew might not be available in the immediate future.

They absolutely were clamoring for an OF.  And they needed one who was both major league ready and had an option to be sent down for when Chourio returned.

So, if you weren't willing to give up an 18-year-old in rookie ball who wasn't one of your top 30 prospects, who would you have been willing to give up to shore up the major league team at a position you knew you would be short on bodies for the next few weeks?  Who would have enticed someone to give up a major league-ready OF?

[Thurston Fluff]

1 hour ago, BrewerFan said:

Well... by that logic, you would have gone out and gotten Suarez as and given up Henderson or whomever they needed, right? 

 

How is trading a fringe prospect and a 6th starter on the last year of his contract the same as trading a major league ready starting pitcher with 6 years of control left for a half year rental logically the same? 

[BrewerFan]

49 minutes ago, Thurston Fluff said:

How is trading a fringe prospect and a 6th starter on the last year of his contract the same as trading a major league ready starting pitcher with 6 years of control left for a half year rental logically the same? 

By this logic;

4 hours ago, SF70 said:

The need for today with this WS contending team supersedes retaining a prospect

This logic pretty much justifies any trade. 

[BrewerFan]

2 hours ago, LouisEly said:

 

Chourio tweaked his hamstring on 7/30.  They had an idea that he could be out for a while.  They also knew that Collins was going on paternity leave soon.  And they knew that Frelick's knee wasn't 100%.  And I don't know who Perkins went on bereavement leave for, but if it was an elderly grandparent or someone who was in poor health and was likely to pass soon, that makes four OFs who they knew might not be available in the immediate future.

They absolutely were clamoring for an OF.  And they needed one who was both major league ready and had an option to be sent down for when Chourio returned.

So, if you weren't willing to give up an 18-year-old in rookie ball who wasn't one of your top 30 prospects, who would you have been willing to give up to shore up the major league team at a position you knew you would be short on bodies for the next few weeks?  Who would have enticed someone to give up a major league-ready OF?

We're talking about to get by for a short period of time... and you're saying people on HERE were clamoring for an OFer? 

I don't recall seeing that. I remember 1B/3B, I remember some talking about CJ Abrams. I remember relievers... a 28-year-old OF prospect? I don't recall seeing much of that.   

And we're now guessing that maybe Perkins MIGHT have known he'd go on Bereavement? The reaches here are... big. 

Daz Cameron. How about him. Black could also play Corner OF. We're talking about getting by for a couple weeks at most. 

But you're saying we had to trade for a 28-year-old non prospect who hasn't done anything and paying for Cortes' contract, that wasn't enough? 

2 hours ago, SF70 said:

Really like your posts over the years and agree with just about every one of them but disagree with your take here.

Also, really don’t like the tone you took with me  —  rather confrontational imo, and unnecessary.

Bottom-line for me — either you trust the FO on this one or you don’t — I do and you don’t and that’s fine. 

 

So... you either blindly agree with every move or you don't trust the front office?

That's your take here? 

Yeah, that sounds more like a cult than a fan of a team.  

The tone, what was unnecessary? I don't find it "necessary" to belabor this point this much but here we are. 

This post is also particularly obnoxious given I JUST said;

Quote

 

I can hold two thoughts at once. 

1-The Brewers front office is... incredible. One of the best at player development in the game. The Padres are pretty damn good as well, they just keep trading their young studs, but... setting that aside.

2-I can ALSO disagree with a transaction... such as not protecting Shane Smith, trading Reece Olson. I've also been wrong about trades. 

 

This doesn't seem like a particularly complicated concept, but... apparently it is. 

[LouisEly]

7 minutes ago, BrewerFan said:

We're talking about to get by for a short period of time... and you're saying people on HERE were clamoring for an OFer? 

I'm saying that the BREWERS were clamoring for an OF.

8 minutes ago, BrewerFan said:

And we're now guessing that maybe Perkins MIGHT have known he'd go on Bereavement? The reaches here are... big. 

I had three grandparents live well into their 90s and went into some type of hospice care.  I knew when they were going to pass within the next few weeks, and I told my employers that.

Like I said, I don't know for sure, but it certainly is possible.  Murphy said several days in advance that they would be short the weekend of 8/15, so he knew in advance that it was going to happen.

9 minutes ago, BrewerFan said:

Daz Cameron. How about him.

Not on the 40-man roster.  Would need to put someone on the 60-day or DFA someone, and then would need to DFA him again to send him down.

10 minutes ago, BrewerFan said:

Black could also play Corner OF.

They called him up.  They needed three - Chourio, Collins, and Perkins were all out the same weekend.  On 8/15 and 8/16 they had all three of Lockridge, Black, and Berroa on the ML roster.  The other OFs were Frelick, who was dealing with some knee issues, and Yelich, who I don't know that the Brewers want playing OF every day for risk of re-aggrivating his back.

I respect you as a poster, so I'm not going to say that your reaches are big, but... you're not taking into account a number of facts that were happening at the time.

[SF70]

41 minutes ago, BrewerFan said:

We're talking about to get by for a short period of time... and you're saying people on HERE were clamoring for an OFer? 

I don't recall seeing that. I remember 1B/3B, I remember some talking about CJ Abrams. I remember relievers... a 28-year-old OF prospect? I don't recall seeing much of that.   

And we're now guessing that maybe Perkins MIGHT have known he'd go on Bereavement? The reaches here are... big. 

Daz Cameron. How about him. Black could also play Corner OF. We're talking about getting by for a couple weeks at most. 

But you're saying we had to trade for a 28-year-old non prospect who hasn't done anything and paying for Cortes' contract, that wasn't enough? 

So... you either blindly agree with every move or you don't trust the front office?

That's your take here? 

Yeah, that sounds more like a cult than a fan of a team.  

The tone, what was unnecessary? I don't find it "necessary" to belabor this point this much but here we are. 

This post is also particularly obnoxious given I JUST said;

This doesn't seem like a particularly complicated concept, but... apparently it is. 

Both of your retorts to me were condescending. I must have really struck a nerve, huh?

I’ve already explained my reasoning behind my take on the Cortez trade, and in detail, so I’m not going to re-state what I’ve already said.

Time for me to move on.

[BrewerFan]

1 minute ago, LouisEly said:

Not on the 40-man roster.  Would need to put someone on the 60-day or DFA someone, and then would need to DFA him again to send him down.

Ok...so they have to DFA him again. What you're saying is we HAD to make this trade because we were so short handed that the ONLY thing we could do was give the Padres the pitching depth they needed...while paying for it AND an 18 year old SS prospect that... apparently they were enamored with(not that you said that). 

How about Jared Oliva? 

They had to make a roster spot for Lockridge, right? We made room for Berroa.  So that's not really a problem... unless we're saying we literally couldn't give Nestor Cortes away while paying his salary for a guy with a good glove and a sub 600 OPS unless we added the guy we gave 1.7M for in the 2024 IFA class. 

6 minutes ago, LouisEly said:

I respect you as a poster, so I'm not going to say that your reaches are big, but... you're not taking into account a number of facts that were happening at the time.

Apparently not so much that I can't say, "I don't like that trade," and then disagree with the logic that Quintana was "immaterial," because we have other Shortstops without a barrage of arguments.

 

There's no argument that we didn't have players in our system who could have filled in. Daz Cameron, Oliva, Avans, Black...AND Berroa who we called up. I also don't see why it'd be a big deal to DFA Cameron either. He's a FA after this year, no? We already DFA'ed him, right?

 

And I'm going to bring this back. THIS was my argument;

Quote

Quintana is immaterial with the team’s among the best in baseball minor-league SS depth.

 

 

Quote

 

No. That's silly. Ebel isn't "immaterial" because we've got a loaded system ahead of him. I don't see how you could say the same about Quintana?  

You can't have too much talent in your farm system(at the most important positions). Having Pratt and Made doesn't make Quintana immaterial. 

Lockridge looks fine. It made no sense to trade away a kid who turned 18 two months ago because you have good players ahead of him. You certainly didn't trade him for much value. You traded him for a guy who's likely not going to stay on the roster when Chourio is back. All for the privilege of moving Cortes?

I don't know what he'll become, but I know we gave up a guy one year ago we were VERY high on and who will still be 18 next year during the draft. So maybe a BIT older for an average HS draft pick. 

 

 

THIS...this is my argument and my point of contention. Other people said he was a glorified pinch runner and nothing but organizational depth and... no push back. 

But I've got it not. I LOVE this trade. It was great. It's right up there with trading Mendez for Dunn, trading Reese Olson for Daniel Norris, loved it. Awesome trade. If you have depth at a position, it really doesn't matter what you get back because you have depth, there's NOTHING the Brewers front office can do that I will ever disagree with as I've now learned it's completely an either or thing. You either love every. single. trade. Or... you don't trust them. Hell, I'm pretty sure if they have a bowel movement, there's not even an odor! 

 

I've seen the light, been made aware... I've got it now, alright. Let me atone for the sins of my past. I'm going to go and start now. 

 

 

[Thurston Fluff]

2 hours ago, BrewerFan said:

By this logic;

This logic pretty much justifies any trade. 

Here is the part you quoted to justify your argument.

Quote

"The need for today with this WS contending team supersedes retaining a prospect"

Now here is the entire sentence 

Quote

"The need for today with this WS contending team supersedes retaining a prospect, at best, 4 years from the bigs, and at worst, too large a hole in his bat to ever get to the bigs as more than a utility player"

Those are far from the same. It's never good form to cut a quote in the middle of a sentence. Much worse to do so to make it appear to say something it never said.

 

 

 

[Playing Catch]

4 hours ago, BrewerFan said:

I've seen the light, been made aware... I've got it now, alright. Let me atone for the sins of my past. I'm going to go and start now. 

If by, "sins of the past," you mean the frequency with which you resort to condescension in your posts, then I think we'd all appreciate your atonement...

You do get that, right??? That sometimes you are condescending? I mean, it's not that hard of a concept to understand.

[BrewerFan]

7 hours ago, Thurston Fluff said:

Those are far from the same. It's never good form to cut a quote in the middle of a sentence. Much worse to do so to make it appear to say something it never said.

Logan Henderson is at best an average SU man. 

Me saying it must make it so, right?

[Thurston Fluff]

12 hours ago, BrewerFan said:

Logan Henderson is at best an average SU man. 

Me saying it must make it so, right?

You saying so doesn't make cutting a sentence in half to imply someone said something they didn't say any more valid. 

[Frisbee Slider]

Cortes on Friday: 3 IP, 5 H, 2 BB, 3 ER 2 K in a loss to Minnesota. Also, an ejection.

https://www.mlb.com/padres/video/nestor-cortes-gets-ejected-from-the-game

[olliegjw]

3 walks and 4 HR allowed in 2 1/3 innings.  Looks like an IL stint in his future.

[HarryDoyle]

Love those low EV hits!

[Joseph Zarr]

Man, I am so Friggin glad the Nestor Cortes circus is no longer our concern. I'll take Lockridge bolstering our OF depth 7-Days a week over that Cortes sideshow. Good riddance.

[StearnsFTW]

Pretty easy to make the argument that Lockridge has been more valuable to the Brewers than Cortes would've been.

 

Without regard to what Lockridge may or may not do for the team over the next 5 years.