Brewers challenge awareness level

[cragi]

I think we can all see the maddening struggles with situational awareness regarding the ABS system. I propose some kind of color code threat level system that takes some of the thinking out of the process. 

 

The batters are trying to figure out what type of pitch is being thrown and other things and they don't necessarily want to fill their heads with added decision-making. The coaching has been slow to inform them for whatever reason. It seems to me they are letting the players largely dictate this and probably teaching them theory but I don't know that that's what they need to be hearing. 

 

I propose instead that they have some kind of simple color code system that lets them know where they're at in the game, what level of challenge they should be considering. Like a Def Con 1 through 4/5, with each level representing how aggressive they should be. They can just have a simple light up or card up so that they don't have to think about the situation but are free to react according to the call and the threat level.

 

First few innings you handle it pretty conservatively. Defcon 2 where you try not to use it unless it's pretty obvious but you better be right or it better be a big moment. 

 

If you burn a challenge early, you've got to go to Def Con 1, where you have to be ultra conservative about that next challenge. Only use it in a critical situation with an egregious call but the key is that the coach has changed the threat level so the players can just react 

 

Conversely when it's late in the game, the coaches start to bump up that level and get more aggressive with the color code as the game goes on. They also consider the matchups and other kinds of risks they may want to take. They manage the threat level and the players respond with a set of parameters based on the current threat level and they can just look up to see the color and the corresponding rule. 

 

I think we can all agree that the Chourio at bat in the ninth inning sitting on two challenges with extra ones coming in the extra innings was a terrible decision and he should have been on high alert to challenge anything borderline. But we've also seen this happen both ways with some players refusing to challenge and others overzealous to challenge 

[Jopal78]

16 minutes ago, cragi said:

 

I think we can all see the maddening struggles with situational awareness regarding the ABS system. I propose some kind of color code threat level system that takes some of the thinking out of the process. 

 

The batters are trying to figure out what type of pitch is being thrown and other things and they don't necessarily want to fill their heads with added decision-making. The coaching has been slow to inform them for whatever reason. It seems to me they are letting the players largely dictate this and probably teaching them theory but I don't know that that's what they need to be hearing. 

 

I propose instead that they have some kind of simple color code system that lets them know where they're at in the game, what level of challenge they should be considering. Like a Def Con 1 through 4/5, with each level representing how aggressive they should be. They can just have a simple light up or card up so that they don't have to think about the situation but are free to react according to the call and the threat level.

 

First few innings you handle it pretty conservatively. Defcon 2 where you try not to use it unless it's pretty obvious but you better be right or it better be a big moment. 

 

If you burn a challenge early, you've got to go to Def Con 1, where you have to be ultra conservative about that next challenge. Only use it in a critical situation with an egregious call but the key is that the coach has changed the threat level so the players can just react 

 

Conversely when it's late in the game, the coaches start to bump up that level and get more aggressive with the color code as the game goes on. They also consider the matchups and other kinds of risks they may want to take. They manage the threat level and the players respond with a set of parameters based on the current threat level and they can just look up to see the color and the corresponding rule. 

 

I think we can all agree that the Chourio at bat in the ninth inning sitting on two challenges with extra ones coming in the extra innings was a terrible decision and he should have been on high alert to challenge anything borderline. But we've also seen this happen both ways with some players refusing to challenge and others overzealous to challenge 

I mean they won the game, so what difference does the challenge not used make in this situation?  
 

The ABS system creates a more uniform strike zone, but I’m not so sure many games turn on a single pitch being called a ball or strike to begin with. Certainly ABS  wasn’t designed to have a batter or pitcher/catcher repeatedly challenging calls. 

[long ball]

The Brewers tried using an indicator card in spring training to alert players if the situation warranted using a challenge or not, but the league said they couldn’t do that. 
 

I don’t see any reason that it couldnt be part of the third base coaches signs before each pitch. It doesn’t need to be a secret. All you need to do is alert the player that this count/situation/inning warrants a challenge if you have a called strike on you. 
 

 

I do think in general that the brewers strategy is to leave the challenges for the catcher.

[Jopal78]

5 minutes ago, long ball said:

The Brewers tried using an indicator card in spring training to alert players if the situation warranted using a challenge or not, but the league said they couldn’t do that. 
 

I don’t see any reason that it couldnt be part of the third base coaches signs before each pitch. It doesn’t need to be a secret. All you need to do is alert the player that this count/situation/inning warrants a challenge if you have a called strike on you. 
 

 

I do think in general that the brewers strategy is to leave the challenges for the catcher.

To the extent that the data can be used to reliably justify outcomes . It certainly could be that their own statistical analysts have determined it’s better to use the challenge system With their pitcher on the mound  than using it at the plate to get an extra pitch for the batter. 

[cragi]

I think the preseason approach was to use cards to effectively challenge from the dugout. 

There a few factors each player has to weigh on the challenge

- The accuracy of the call

- The game situation

- The number of challenges used at that point in time in the game

- the count

..if the coaches can take some of that thinking off the table, might help them. And we done yet know the extent of how this added thinking affects their overall hitting

[liveforoctober]

I largely don't have an opinion. My only piece is I can't deal when someone burns a challenge with no one on base and no one out in the 2nd inning on a 1-1 pitch. Mr. Sanchez, this at bat and this scenario does not warrant this ever. It would have to be fairly egregious for me to challenge something that early in a nothing situation.

.. and yes, the golden rule in the NFL is you don't take timeouts into halftime. It isn't the same here but that 'rule' should be shouted from the rooftops in certain scenarios. Bottom of the 9th and we have guys in scoring position to end the game ... if there is any doubt at all, burn them up. No questions.

[adambr2]

My biggest wish is that we had a little more awareness that it’s time to be aggressive in the late innings.

My theory on the hands off approach by the coaching staff is that maybe they feel that batters/catchers have enough to worry about when they’re at the plate - scouting report of opposing pitcher/batter, situation (runners on, number of outs), how aggressive to be in the count that they’re in, etc, and they feel that giving them one more thing to have to think could be counterproductive.

[sveumrules]

Brewers batters have the fewest challenges at 66 (26 by Sanchez alone) and the lowest run value on challenges a +4.7 runs. For a sense of scale MIN is 1st at 125 challenges and CIN is 1st at +12.4 runs to this point.

On the flip side the catchers are at 148 challenges behind the plate (3rd) for +7.8 runs (6th). Contreras has 111 pitches challenged (1st) for +5.4 runs (5th) individually.

Could be a matter of the team strategy to this point being something along the lines of save the challenges for the catchers behind the dish to aid in the run prevention and only use them at the plate if you feel the call is particularly egregious in a leverage spot (or are Gary Sanchez).

[KCBrewerfan34]

Coaching staff has to let the hitters know we have 2 challenges left in the 8th or 9th inning. Geez 

[Team Canada]

3 hours ago, long ball said:

I do think in general that the brewers strategy is to leave the challenges for the catcher.

The problem is they need to clarify with Gary that they meant when he's catching, not batting.

[TwinsBrewersWorldSeries]

19 minutes ago, Team Canada said:

The problem is they need to clarify with Gary that they meant when he's catching, not batting.

I would prefer that they tell Sanchez that he’s not allowed to challenge ever.

Now that Haase is available, I’d actually prefer to get rid of Sanchez and bring back Haase.

Actually, maybe we can trade him for something useful, would be addition by subtraction even if the pitcher we got back amounts to nothing.

While I got really frustrated watching him, at least Blake Perkins was likable.

[yourout]

Marte says Jackson hold my beer.

Here is how the Diamondbacks game ended last night with a called third strike and based on the box score they still had a challenge left. 

And the tieing run was on base

Also. Bill Miller is a terrible umpire.

[yourout]

https://www.si.com/mlb/diamondbacks/onsi/why-ketel-marte-challenge-game-ending-pitch-cardinals

[JohnBriggs12]

There's way too many Brewer hitters not challenging borderline outrageous pitches.  Worst offenders?  Turang, Yelich, Chourio and Bauers.  Part of it seems to be they've had success in the past and don't want to be up there judging pitches.  Yet they all react with surprised looks when a pitch 2 inches out of the zone is called a strike.  

The situation of course matters, but I'm much more aggravated when the calls that are so obvious are let go by regardless of the situation.  My goodness Chourio did it in every at bat Friday night.