If JJ Hardy is non-tendered - Utility IF?

[RyDogg66]

Counsel is getting old, Weeks has been injury prone. What if JJ Hardy is non-tendered. How would people feel about him coming back to be the backup 2b-SS-3b? Our bench is too left handed the way it is and he is obviously a fan-favorite? What would it cost? I dont know, 1.5-2 million maybe? Especially with back-to-back "down" years.

 

Thoughts?

[craigharmann]

I really wonder if that bridge has been burned with Hardy, with the being sent down to AAA and then being traded. Why would he want to come back? I'm sure he believes he can be a starter.

[JohnBriggs12]

I agree with craigharmann. With Escobar and Weeks, the Brewer should go on the cheap for a utility guy. Escobar is young enough to play virtually every day. They have organizational depth behind Weeks with Farris and Lawrie. I'd be fine with minimum salary Luis Cruz or even one more year with Counsell but only if he accepts a significant pay cut.

[RyDogg66]

Im not saying you are right or wrong, but what does it say about your organization if every time a player leaves, thoughts of bringing that player back in a different role are met with 'that bridge has been burned" or some other variation on a sour relationship? It's got to be a least a bit concerning.

[trwi7]

The market for shortstops is horrible. If he's non-tendered he'll easily get more than $2 million and he'll get a starting job.

[Crash2303]

i'm really hoping we stay young/cheap as well. totally satisfied with Cruz and Piglett. cruz is great defensively and can play multiple positions. and piglett gives us tremendous versatility and a solid PH bat. is Cruz under team control for next season? if not- really hope we resign them both.

[Crash2303]

and for that matter, i really like Dickerson and Gomez backing up everyone in the OF and supplementing Cain in CF. That definitely gives us a lot of flexibility and improves us even more defensively.

[MNBrew]

Hardy is the SS the Twins have needed for several years. They know he's been injured a lot this year (duh), but I believe Hardy has one more arby year and his 2-year totals are nothing that would justify much if any raise through arby.

 

So I'd be extremely surprised if the Twins didn't have him back next year.

[GB12]

He'll be starting somewhere next year. Even if he somehow couldn't get a starting job I doubt he'd consider coming back to Milwaukee.

[Never Outhustled]

Hardy is 1.8 WAR this year, thats 2 1/2 times better than Escobar, despite the fact that Hardy has missed significant time with injury. If he was here, he'd start every day, and Escobar would go back to AAA where he belonged this season.

 

Why would the Twins non-tender Hardy when they could just trade him?

[Baldkin]

Considering Hardy completely refused moving positions while he was in Milwaukee, which, in essence, is what got him shipped out of town, I can't imagine him taking a non-starting job.

[JJHardy7]

Im not saying you are right or wrong, but what does it say about your organization if every time a player leaves, thoughts of bringing that player back in a different role are met with 'that bridge has been burned" or some other variation on a sour relationship? It's got to be a least a bit concerning.

 

What players makeup 'every time a player leaves'? Sheets...and then who else? Hall? I don't think that list is actually all that long...

[logan82]

Sheffield

[craigharmann]

Sheffield

He burned his own bridges by throwing the ball into the Brewer dugout on purpose.

[Invader3K]

Hardy is 1.8 WAR this year, thats 2 1/2 times better than Escobar, despite the fact that Hardy has missed significant time with injury. If he was here, he'd start every day, and Escobar would go back to AAA where he belonged this season.

Oh yeah; and I'm sure the Twins are glad they have Hardy at his salary and healthiness versus a cheap, young player with upside, like Escobar, right?

[HiAndTight]

Im not saying you are right or wrong, but what does it say about your organization if every time a player leaves, thoughts of bringing that player back in a different role are met with 'that bridge has been burned" or some other variation on a sour relationship? It's got to be a least a bit concerning.

What's "every time"? I can think of two possible situations, Sheets and Hardy, and I can't see what we did wrong in the Sheets situation. We offered him arbitration with a bad wing and he turned it down.

 

Hardy may be upset about the extra year of Free Agency, but he wasn't exactly lighting it up. That one's understand about though, Sheets being mad? If he even is, as I haven't seen any comments where he blasts the Brewers at all...

[MNBrew]

Sheffield

He burned his own bridges by throwing the ball into the Brewer dugout on purpose.

Sheffield hated Harry Dalton. Sheffield basically cinched his way out of town his last spring when he started publicly ripping Sal Bando, then the new GM, who since he'd gotten the job had been doing all he could to handle Sheffield carefully & positively. Bando had done NOTHING (that was ever reported, anyway) that deserved such a blasting -- a poor & terribly immature handling of the situation on Sheffield's part. When Sheffield starting blasting the one guy who'd done nothing wrong toward him, it became purely obvious that, while incredibly talented, Sheffield was a cancerous malcontent who had to go for the best return Bando could get.

 

The burnt bridge was entirely from Sheffield's end and, at that point, clearly of his own doing.

 

His temperamental nature and un-graceful departures from several other teams have been well documented over the past 15 years.

[Never Outhustled]

Hardy is 1.8 WAR this year, thats 2 1/2 times better than Escobar, despite the fact that Hardy has missed significant time with injury. If he was here, he'd start every day, and Escobar would go back to AAA where he belonged this season.

Oh yeah; and I'm sure the Twins are glad they have Hardy at his salary and healthiness versus a cheap, young player with upside, like Escobar, right?

 

Huh? Hardy was traded for Escobar? What are you saying? I'm sure the Twins are esctatic they have Hardy instead of Gomez, as they're almost 2 wins better because of it.

[TooLiveBrew]

Except that Gomez was going to be a bench player for them (which is why he was available), and not a starter like he mostly was for the Crew. So no, they're not exactly 2 wins better for it, they're whatever WAR upgrade/downgrade Hardy has been over a different solution at SS (FA or trade).

[RockCoCougars]

Sheffield

He burned his own bridges by throwing the ball into the Brewer dugout on purpose.

Sheffield hated Harry Dalton. Sheffield basically cinched his way out of town his last spring when he started publicly ripping Sal Bando, then the new GM, who since he'd gotten the job had been doing all he could to handle Sheffield carefully & positively. Bando had done NOTHING (that was ever reported, anyway) that deserved such a blasting -- a poor & terribly immature handling of the situation on Sheffield's part. When Sheffield starting blasting the one guy who'd done nothing wrong toward him, it became purely obvious that, while incredibly talented, Sheffield was a cancerous malcontent who had to go for the best return Bando could get.

 

The burnt bridge was entirely from Sheffield's end and, at that point, clearly of his own doing.

 

His temperamental nature and un-graceful departures from several other teams have been well documented over the past 15 years.

I still wish the Brewers would have just kept Sheffield down in the minors once he started crying in 1989. They could have buried him until he became a seven year free agent. I bet he would have quit the game after a year or so.

 

Back on topic, I think it'd be a cold day in hell before Hardy ever considered coming back after the way things were handled last year.

[HiAndTight]

Considering Hardy completely refused moving positions while he was in Milwaukee, which, in essence, is what got him shipped out of town, I can't imagine him taking a non-starting job.

I also think this is pretty exaggerated. Don't get me wrong, I don't think Hardy was ever keen on moving, but he never refused or said he wouldn't.

I think he made some comments about "believing he was a SS and that he'd prefer to stay at SS, but I don't think he was ever asked point blank to change position.

I also don't think that had anything to do with him getting shipped out of Milwaukee.

[HiAndTight]

Hardy is 1.8 WAR this year, thats 2 1/2 times better than Escobar, despite the fact that Hardy has missed significant time with injury. If he was here, he'd start every day, and Escobar would go back to AAA where he belonged this season.

Oh yeah; and I'm sure the Twins are glad they have Hardy at his salary and healthiness versus a cheap, young player with upside, like Escobar, right?

 

Huh? Hardy was traded for Escobar? What are you saying? I'm sure the Twins are esctatic they have Hardy instead of Gomez, as they're almost 2 wins better because of it.

You're the one inferring that Hardy's far more valuable than Escobar and drew the direct comparision from Hardy to Escobar in this thread, one that I, along with a great many others would strongly disagree with.

 

I like applying WAR in a great many situations, but it's a measurement of players, it's not a literal value of wins. To pretend the Twins have 2 more wins and 2 less losses had they played the season with Escobar rather than Hardy is simply impossible to accurately quantify.

 

Not to mention that the vast majority of Hardy's value over Escobar is directly derived from defensive value over 3/4ths of a season and it renders their seasonal "WAR's" that must less reliable in my opinion.

[Invader3K]

"Huh? Hardy was traded for Escobar? What are you saying? I'm sure the Twins are esctatic they have Hardy instead of Gomez, as they're almost 2 wins better because of it. "

 

No. I said that because you were comparing the two players in terms for WAR. I was comparing them in regards to reality, and their situations with each team.

[TwinsBrewersWorldSeries]

As a Twins fan, (money aside), i'd take Hardy 100 times out of 100 over Escobar. If Escobar wasn't making the league minimum, he wouldn't have much value to a contending team.

I concede that Escobar is likely to BECOME the better defender, but at present Hardy is superior to Escobar in every way (except salary earned).

[MJLiverock]

Hardy's offense has been disappearing and for all the grief about Escobar he has the same Obp as Hardy. Hardy may have already peaked and will be a FA after next season. I'd take Escobar easily over Hardy today.