2022 NFL Discussion Thread

[adambr2]

I'm just saying that after the loss to the Niners all the pundits were saying that the loss hurt Rodgers legacy and rank of all time greats, and continue to mentions only two Championships in 30 years of Hall of Fame quarterback play. I used to ignore that noise, but now I believe it. Starr didn't squander a good number of golden opportunities like Favre and Rodgers did. He took advantage of damn near every one of them.

 

In all but one of his championship seasons, winning the championship meant either winning 1 or 2 games. In a bunch of them, you were the champion of 14 teams.

 

To be fair, if Rodgers could just win 2 damn games, he'd be playing in the Super Bowl most years.

[PeaveyFury]

I'm just saying that after the loss to the Niners all the pundits were saying that the loss hurt Rodgers legacy and rank of all time greats, and continue to mentions only two Championships in 30 years of Hall of Fame quarterback play. I used to ignore that noise, but now I believe it. Starr didn't squander a good number of golden opportunities like Favre and Rodgers did. He took advantage of damn near every one of them.

 

Starr also played on a team with what, 10 other hall of famers?

[patrickgpe]

you can't even compare favre vs rodgers because the NFL is so different than it was in the late 90's and early 2000's, minus starr vs those 2.

[PeaveyFury]

So if Dick Vermeil is a HOF coach, Mike Holmgren is too, right?

[homer]

It is kind of crazy how meh to bad some HOF QB numbers look compared to modern-day guys. Joe Namath looks like a total scrub. He won MVP with more interceptions than TD passes.

[nodakfan17]

So if Dick Vermeil is a HOF coach, Mike Holmgren is too, right?

Has to be, right? Heck, by that standard, McCarthy should be in too.

 

Holmgren: 161-111 (0.592)

McCarthy: 143-92-2 (0.608)

Vermeil: 120-109 (0.524)

 

All 3 belong in the Hall of Very Good. Vermeil’s selection puzzles me too.

[PeaveyFury]

You can honestly make a compelling case for Holmgren using Cowher as benchmark too. I hadn’t really thought about it before looking yesterday, but Holmgren is probably HOF worthy considering the benchmark they’ve set for coaches from the 90s.

 

With Kramer and Butler now in, I think Packer fans can now legit lobby for Holmgren and Sharpe next.

[OldHeidelberg]

Holmy got 2 different teams to Super Bowls and really should have won that Seattle SB but got reffed. For sure by Vermeil standards he is in someday. Sharpe is a tougher sell, you sort of need longevity to get in as a WR so you can pile up some stats. I think Adams is a very comparable player but most would probably agree he needs to play at this high level at least 2-3 more years to get hall worthy and he has passed Sharpe in virtually all the stats already. A SB ring would go a long way for Adams chances though. Terrel Davis and now Boseli give Sharpe hope but they played different positions and Davis has the rings. I actually don't think Davis should be in.

[sveumrules]

Sharpe & Adams career numbers are close, but once you adjust for the era they played in Sterling has the edge for me.

 

In 1992 when Sterling lead the league with 108 receptions, the league as a whole completed 7,705 passes. This year there were 12,121 passes completed.

 

A couple more All Pro caliber seasons would probably put Davante over the top for me, hopefully we get to see them in the Green & Gold.

[PeaveyFury]

Sharpe is a tougher sell, you sort of need longevity to get in as a WR so you can pile up some stats.

 

The issue I have with this is that Patrick Willis was a HOF finalist this year largely based on the narrative, probably correctly, that he played at a high level for 7 seasons and injury robbed us of a full-length HOF career for him. Sharpe is literally the same story. 7 HOF caliber seasons, but that HOF-trajectory career cut short by injury. If he's simply able to have a typical 10-12 year career as most are able to, I have little doubt he's talked about in the same breath with Rice, Moss, and Cris Carter. Or at a MINIMUM Andre Reed and Art Monk.

[OldHeidelberg]

Yes, Sharpe was on his way for sure, I think the problem for him is HOF voters don't really see WR like it does say Qb, RB, LT, Edge, and CB. Seems sort of weird they don't in todays NFL but Lofton and Monk had to wait a long time even though both held major NFL records when they retired. Carter had over 100 TD's and had to wait a few years but I think that was because a lot of guys didn't like him personally. I just took a scroll through the all time receivers, I don't see anyone in the HOF with a short career and numbers like Sterling. There are definitely a few guys in line before him.

[logan82]

Comparing QBs across generations can be tough. Back in 1984, when Dan Marino had his historic season (108.9 rating) the average QB rating was 76.1. This year, when Aaron Rodgers had a pretty pedestrian by his standards (but still league leading) passer rating of 111.9, the average QB rating was 90.8.

 

Luckily PFRef has done all the work of creating a RATE+ stat, that normalizes for era. Dan Marino's 1984 RATE+ comes in at 141, tied with 1968 Bart Starr for the 10th best mark of the Super Bowl Era. 

 

For comparison, Rodgers best season in 2011 comes in at a RATE+ of 149, tied with 1989 Marino for the second highest mark of the Super Bowl Era behind only Peyton Manning at 151 in 2004.  

 

They don't have career RATE+ numbers, but looking at single seasons & drawing an arbitrary line at a RATE+ of 119 (Rodgers mark in the 2010 Super Bowl season) here is how many seasons each QB has above that line...

 

Rodgers (9) Peyton (9) Brees (9) Montana (8) Young (8) Favre (6) Brady (5) Marino (5) Elway (2) Aikman (2)

I believe Young does get kind of overlooked. He happened to be a starter when the Cowboys and Packers were doing really well or he probably wins a couple more Super Bowls. Plus he really didn't get to be a full time starter until he was in his thirties. Short career and mostly during a time when the Packer and Cowboys were winning Super Bowls. He was really only a starter for 8 years. Let's take some numbers.

 

Rate+ 120 or more and Rodgers (8) Peyton (9) Brees (7) Montana (7) Young (8) Favre (4) Brady (4) Marino (3) Elway (1) Aikman (2)

 

Rate+ 130 or more and Rodgers (3) Peyton (2) Brees (5) Montana (3) Young (5) Favre (1) Brady (3) Marino (1) Elway (0) Aikman (0)

 

Rate+ 140 or more and Rodgers (1) Peyton (1) Brees (0) Montana (1) Young (2) Favre (0) Brady (1) Marino (1) Elway (0) Aikman (0)

[OldSchoolSnapper]

Sharpe is a tougher sell, you sort of need longevity to get in as a WR so you can pile up some stats.

 

The issue I have with this is that Patrick Willis was a HOF finalist this year largely based on the narrative, probably correctly, that he played at a high level for 7 seasons and injury robbed us of a full-length HOF career for him. Sharpe is literally the same story. 7 HOF caliber seasons, but that HOF-trajectory career cut short by injury. If he's simply able to have a typical 10-12 year career as most are able to, I have little doubt he's talked about in the same breath with Rice, Moss, and Cris Carter. Or at a MINIMUM Andre Reed and Art Monk.

 

Sharpe had a very poor relationship with the media. He was incredibly shy and rarely spoke to them at all.

[sveumrules]

I believe Young does get kind of overlooked.

 

Big time. His eight season stretch as a starter is the most dominant run in NFL history from an efficiency standpoint. Lead the league in RATE+ six of those seasons with still impressive 120 & 128 marks in the other two seasons.

 

Plus he is probably the best scrambler out of the QBs that come up in the best ever conversation.

 

My tiers are probably something like..

 

Young/Rodgers (efficiency masters)

Montana/Brady (if rings are more your thing)

Peyton/Favre/Brees/Marino (not as efficient as tier 1 / not as many rings as tier 2)

[nodakfan17]

I agree with the sentiment that Steve Young is probably underrated in a historical context. He was Rodgers before Rodgers was Rodgers. It’s not his fault that he was drafted by a crap franchise (TB), sat behind Montana for 5 years, or was blocked from the SB by some historically great Dallas and Green Bay teams.

[nodakfan17]

AP arrested for domestic violence. That’ll probably do it, eh?

 

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/adrian-peterson-arrested-domestic-violence-222355862.html

[DuWayne Steurer]

The Rams went all-in, and all they got out of it was a stupid Super Bowl win.

[PeaveyFury]

That they did. I believe I called them out on it when it looked like that would be a franchise destroying choice after their loss to GB. Now they get to spend their draft day quietly starting at the Lombardi Trophy.

[DuWayne Steurer]

That they did. I believe I called them out on it when it looked like that would be a franchise destroying choice after their loss to GB. Now they get to spend their draft day quietly starting at the Lombardi Trophy.

 

 

They knew what they were buying into when they made their decision to go all in. I'm sure they're good with it. You don't judge decisions by the end result, but they got what they wanted, and I'm sure they, along with the fans are happy as heck. A 3-4 year rebuild is gonna be a lot easier to stomach knowing that the buy-in got them where they wanted.

[PeaveyFury]

Oh yeah, that’s 100% what I meant. It’s devastating to make that choice and flop knowing you have a mess going forward. They got what they wanted and gambled successfully. No one will care if they stink for the next 3 years.

[DuWayne Steurer]

Oh yeah, that’s 100% what I meant. It’s devastating to make that choice and flop knowing you have a mess going forward. They got what they wanted and gambled successfully. No one will care if they stink for the next 3 years.

 

See.... I'm not a Packers fan the way I'm a Brewers fan. (anymore. Used to be) If the Packers went "all in" and sucked for a few years, I wouldn't care the way I would care for the Brewers. Also, when you have a talent like Rodgers, I think most football fans have to at least acknowledge that the QB impacts a game way more than any individual baseball player can, and the idea of going "all in" around a guy like Rodgers or Brady at least makes more sense in football than it does in baseball.

 

Good for the Rams, they took a shot, and it worked out. Even if it didn't, and they "only" got to the Super Bowl, I'd happily consider that a success. Sure, losing the Super Bowl sucks, but not as much as getting punked at home in the Divisional Round as the 1 seed XD.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

Man...I will never believe the Rams would have beaten the Packers. Too bad they couldn't even force that game.

[Fear The Chorizo]

With some of the quotes and smoke related to McVay looking at his life beyond the sidelines and Donald even talking about the 'R' word if the Rams found a way to win it all this season, I wonder if that also spurred a big part of their "all in" approach for 2021 - knowing even if they didn't make all the moves they did to try and win it this year to try and maintain some semblance of longterm success that their head coach and best player might not be long for sticking around anyways.

 

With TB and the Rams winning the last two titles, that's definitely a formula to win a title - quite possible GB follows that recipe for 2022 even if it means a more painful retooling/rebuild a season or two further down the road.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

What would GB following that even look like? GB was pretty much all in this season. It's pretty much inconceivable they return with as good a roster. You don't really have to be as good as they were to win a championship, but I'm not sure how the Packers go "all in".

[Fear The Chorizo]

Man...I will never believe the Rams would have beaten the Packers. Too bad they couldn't even force that game.

 

I posted in the super bowl thread - oftentimes the best teams don't win titles, many times it's not the hottest team in a 1 and done situation too. Heading into this postseason I thought it was probably the most wide open of any I could have remembered, and I think after watching how the playoffs unfolded it wouldn't surprise me in the least to replay all of it and wind up with two completely different teams in the Super Bowl and totally different storylines to be watching unfold this offseason.