Packers 2023 Discussion Thread

[BrewerFan]

4 hours ago, CheezWizHed said:

Production wise, I'd say he is about the same as Gary during his first year.  He seems to be in the right place defensively (which Gary struggled with early), good hustle, he just isn't making any splash plays.

By judging where he plays in preseason games, he seems to be about 4th in the rotation... Gary, Smith, Hollins, LVN, and Engabare even though Engabare makes more splash plays and similarly has a good grasp of the D, holds the edges, etc...

I'm guessing that we won't see him much early in the season unless there is a blowout. 

I don't think he's burried as deep on the depth chart as you do. I think they'll rotate him in there, particularly early in the season with Gary working his way back. I think the order is pretty clear, Gary, Smith, Enagbare, LVN, Hollins(Cox I'd guess will be inactive if he makes the team). 

He's been good vs the run and he hasn't really provided much as an edge rusher, but I don't think he was expected to. Pretty much the opposite of Will McDonald at this point(the player he's going to inevitably be compared to). 

I'm pretty good with where he is overall though. Definitely very similar to Gary. He's just physical though. I'd rather have a guy who needs to develop technically, but who plays hard and has the size and toughness than a speed rusher who can make a few big plays, but can't consistently hold up at the point. 

Enagbare reminds me more and more of Za'Darius. They have a very similar style. He takes some risks that will result in TFLs or losing contain.

This is really a strength on this team though. The Packers just keep moving in the right direction in terms of building a physically dominant, fast team. 

[CheezWizHed]

2 hours ago, BrewerFan said:

I don't think he's burried as deep on the depth chart as you do. I think they'll rotate him in there, particularly early in the season with Gary working his way back. I think the order is pretty clear, Gary, Smith, Enagbare, LVN, Hollins(Cox I'd guess will be inactive if he makes the team). 

He's been good vs the run and he hasn't really provided much as an edge rusher, but I don't think he was expected to. Pretty much the opposite of Will McDonald at this point(the player he's going to inevitably be compared to). 

I'm pretty good with where he is overall though. Definitely very similar to Gary. He's just physical though. I'd rather have a guy who needs to develop technically, but who plays hard and has the size and toughness than a speed rusher who can make a few big plays, but can't consistently hold up at the point. 

Enagbare reminds me more and more of Za'Darius. They have a very similar style. He takes some risks that will result in TFLs or losing contain.

This is really a strength on this team though. The Packers just keep moving in the right direction in terms of building a physically dominant, fast team. 

So, we both list him 4th on the depth chart, but you didn't bury him as deep as I did? 😂 By the way, I don't list Hollins 3rd because I think he is better, but just by how the Packers seem to play them.  Hollins plays a few snaps with the preseason starters with LVN.  LVN stays in while Engabare replaces Hollins.  Then LVN eventually steps out and Engabare remains.  

I should clarify that I think LVN will get snaps in the rotation. But I see them giving him the Gary treatment where it is limited.  But I think LVN will hold the edge as a rookie better than Gary, which I think was his major issue with getting more snaps. 

[BrewerFan]

3 minutes ago, CheezWizHed said:

So, we both list him 4th on the depth chart, but you didn't bury him as deep as I did? 😂 By the way, I don't list Hollins 3rd because I think he is better, but just by how the Packers seem to play them.  Hollins plays a few snaps with the preseason starters with LVN.  LVN stays in while Engabare replaces Hollins.  Then LVN eventually steps out and Engabare remains.  

I should clarify that I think LVN will get snaps in the rotation. But I see them giving him the Gary treatment where it is limited.  But I think LVN will hold the edge as a rookie better than Gary, which I think was his major issue with getting more snaps. 

LOL...ok, I was more referencing this statement;

2 hours ago, BrewerFan said:

I'm guessing that we won't see him much early in the season unless there is a blowout. 

I think he's going to get fairly regular snaps in a rotation. 

But I think we're pretty much in the same place. Gary played ~24% of the snaps. Last year Garvin was playing roughly ~25% of the snaps over his 14 games.

 

As for Gary's rookie year, I remember it a little differently. I thought he was good vs the run early on, setting the edge, etc...and that it didn't really become a problem until he started to establish himself a bit more and took wider routes to the QB leaving his gap wide open. So more his 2nd year into year 3. And particularly vs running QBs. I might have that wrong, but that's my recollection. 

 

[CheezWizHed]

10 hours ago, BrewerFan said:

But I think we're pretty much in the same place. Gary played ~24% of the snaps. Last year Garvin was playing roughly ~25% of the snaps over his 14 games.

 

As for Gary's rookie year, I remember it a little differently. I thought he was good vs the run early on, setting the edge, etc...and that it didn't really become a problem until he started to establish himself a bit more and took wider routes to the QB leaving his gap wide open. So more his 2nd year into year 3. And particularly vs running QBs. I might have that wrong, but that's my recollection. 

 

Agreed. I overstated it with "I'm guessing that we won't see him much early in the season unless there is a blowout."

I think it will be much like Gary's first year.  And I could remembering the time poorly on setting the edge.  I know there was a number of games when he was poor at it and nearly benched because we were getting run on regularly. 

 

[BrewerFan]

On 8/29/2023 at 8:39 AM, CheezWizHed said:

Agreed. I overstated it with "I'm guessing that we won't see him much early in the season unless there is a blowout."

I think it will be much like Gary's first year.  And I could remembering the time poorly on setting the edge.  I know there was a number of games when he was poor at it and nearly benched because we were getting run on regularly. 

 

Not his rookie year. His rookie year his grade vs the run was 82. His grade as a pass rusher was much lower.

It was his 2nd and 3rd year when his pass rush took a big jump and it was primarily pass rushing lanes letting mobile QBs get outside the pocket.

[CheezWizHed]

6 hours ago, BrewerFan said:

Not his rookie year. His rookie year his grade vs the run was 82. His grade as a pass rusher was much lower.

It was his 2nd and 3rd year when his pass rush took a big jump and it was primarily pass rushing lanes letting mobile QBs get outside the pocket.

I don't recall the year, but there was a time all of our OLBs failed to hold the edge... we were getting burnt by QBs and RBs alike.  I seem to remember Cook getting outside over and over again... probably 2021? Wasn't just Gary, but Gary was clearly one of them.  

Either way... LVN is quite a bit in the exact same position as Gary was as a rookie.  That was the main point. 

[BrewerFan]

8 hours ago, CheezWizHed said:

I don't recall the year, but there was a time all of our OLBs failed to hold the edge... we were getting burnt by QBs and RBs alike.  I seem to remember Cook getting outside over and over again... probably 2021? Wasn't just Gary, but Gary was clearly one of them.  

Either way... LVN is quite a bit in the exact same position as Gary was as a rookie.  That was the main point. 

'21 in particular they struggled with guys not being disciplined vs mobile QBs like Fields, Hienicke, I don't think we saw Lamar that year, but their backup Huntley ran on us.

'20 was that Kamara game when we couldn't tackle him and Cook kept getting outside.

But yes, the main point is that Van Ness about as close to a carbon copy of rookie Gary as you can get.

[HarveysWBs]

At this rate, I'm not sure it will ever happen, but it would be really interesting to see what MLF could cook up with Watson, Doubs, Musgrave, and Jones all on the field simultaneously.  I guess we'll have to content ourselves with only 2 or 3 out of 4 on any given game day.  Kind of a shame, really.

[adambr2]

Not much to be upset about other than an unacceptable amount of discipline penalties. 

I thought Jordan looked like a perfectly capable NFL quarterback. Obviously too early to say at exactly what level but perfectly happy with his performance. A couple missed throws, a couple drops and a couple where it was unclear whether they were overthrown or a receiver just stopped or lost track. Protected the ball well and went through his progressions. I thought his biggest mistakes were game management type mistakes (clock management, taking too long to get the play in), which should come with more experience. I thought the offensive line did a phenomenal job especially in pass protection. Keep in mind they were without Watson today too. 

Defensively, I thought we were actually much better than the Bears than the store indicated. A lot of times where Fields just kind of slipped away from tackles and a lot of costly penalties made things closer than they needed to be. But I felt like the pass rush was in Fields' face all day and made him uncomfortable. It was great to see. 

[homer]

Slaton/Wyatt>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Lancaster/Lowry

[adambr2]

About the only negative I can say about the offense yesterday is that Dillon is never going to be who they hoped and as such they can ill afford any significant injury for Jones. The difference in talent and elusiveness between Aaron Jones and AJ Dillon is pretty glaring. Dillon is just a guy and I don't see them making any significant effort to bring him back next year. 

[OldHeidelberg]

1 hour ago, adambr2 said:

About the only negative I can say about the offense yesterday is that Dillon is never going to be who they hoped and as such they can ill afford any significant injury for Jones. The difference in talent and elusiveness between Aaron Jones and AJ Dillon is pretty glaring. Dillon is just a guy and I don't see them making any significant effort to bring him back next year. 

I wonder if we are just too predictable with Dillon back there. The Bears seemed to be in the backfield every play when he got the ball. But yeah he was awful yesterday and for most of last season too.  I think he had a ton of carries at BC, maybe one of those players who hits a career wall early.

[CheezWizHed]

Yes, Dillon really has just gotten more and more vanilla as he aged.  No wiggle, running directly into the D.  I think the predictable play calling doesn't help - hey, Dillon is back there, it must be a run.  But he doesn't look like the back from 2 years ago. 

If he can't get anything going this year, it wouldn't shock me to see Taylor promoted to the 53-man in his place.  I wouldn't mind Wilson getting a few carries eventually too. 

[homer]

I think a big part of Clark's job is to soak up double teams so the other guys get a numbers advantage.

[BrewerFan]

1 hour ago, homer said:

I think a big part of Clark's job is to soak up double teams so the other guys get a numbers advantage.

That's always going to be a part of a DL's job in a 2 gap system like we play. But you pay guys like Clark top dollar because you expect more from them. You expect penetration and for him to reset the LOS. 

I just do not think Clark should be playing DE as a 3 tech. He's a solid player there...not a special player and they're paying him to be elite.

I think this version of Kenny Clark is ...not easily replaceable, but he's not longer an elite player. 

 

That said, it's much easier to block Clark when you get a full half of a step as an OL before the ball is snapped as Darnell Wright did on the late TD where they highlighted him blocking Clark. I'm not sure how the refs miss that as it happened multiple times(they finally called one). 

[BrewerFan]

17 hours ago, adambr2 said:

Not much to be upset about other than an unacceptable amount of discipline penalties. 

I thought Jordan looked like a perfectly capable NFL quarterback. Obviously too early to say at exactly what level but perfectly happy with his performance. A couple missed throws, a couple drops and a couple where it was unclear whether they were overthrown or a receiver just stopped or lost track. Protected the ball well and went through his progressions. I thought his biggest mistakes were game management type mistakes (clock management, taking too long to get the play in), which should come with more experience. I thought the offensive line did a phenomenal job especially in pass protection. Keep in mind they were without Watson today too. 

Defensively, I thought we were actually much better than the Bears than the store indicated. A lot of times where Fields just kind of slipped away from tackles and a lot of costly penalties made things closer than they needed to be. But I felt like the pass rush was in Fields' face all day and made him uncomfortable. It was great to see. 

Love was about 3 missed throws away from having a truly amazing type of game. That throw to Musgrave obviously. One where you're not sure who was at fault, but I'd like to see Love put a little more on that, but Musgrave struggled tracking the ball yesterday(1st year, 1st game vs Chicago, give him a bit of a mulligan).

He threw that ball late and inside to Reed on the out route. I don't recall if that was 3rd down(I believe it was). 

The deep ball to Toure was another one. Was that a poor job tracking or was that a missed throw? 

There were 2 "bad" throws. One to Doubs running that in route. Love really stepped into it(little Favre-esque) and fired it way over his head. Might have been a good thing as he was leading Doubs right into Edmunds. One of those things we took for granted with Rodgers, he VERY seldom put his WRers in harms way with his throws. And then the one to Reed when they initially threw the flag for Jackson going up around the head. 

And then just a couple early on where he wasn't perfect. The ball to Jones early that was low, that quick hitch to Doubs that Doubs had to turn around and reach back for.

He really benefitted from Aaron Jones and some creative play calling(especially on that throw back screen).

But man, the way he came back after those missed opportunities was encouraging. It's definitely WAY too early to know what you have in him. Hopefully adding Watson will create more big play opportunities. I'm sure moving forward you'll see more teams sending pressure if they can't create it as Love was able to just sit in the pocket and go through his reads...a couple times it seemed like he literally went from his 1st read to his 4th or 5th. That calm and composure was awesome to see. 

It's important to not get too carried away, but it's also important to recognize that he doesn't need to be Aaron Rodgers. It's such an unattainable standard(particularly for a regular season game in good conditions). 

With all the hype though, all the pressure of replacing Rodgers and the nerves I'd imagine accompany that, he was outstanding. 

 

2 hours ago, CheezWizHed said:

Yes, Dillon really has just gotten more and more vanilla as he aged.  No wiggle, running directly into the D.  I think the predictable play calling doesn't help - hey, Dillon is back there, it must be a run.  But he doesn't look like the back from 2 years ago. 

If he can't get anything going this year, it wouldn't shock me to see Taylor promoted to the 53-man in his place.  I wouldn't mind Wilson getting a few carries eventually too. 

He's just got zero patience. He doesn't allow the play to develop and can't seem to read blocks. I really don't know where rookie AJ Dillon went(limited carries, but still very good) or Yr 2 AJ Dillon went.

Yes, predictability was an issue. I also hate when they lineup under shotgun in obvious rushing downs and run that inside zone. You're telling the DL exactly where you're going with the ball. 

But his problems go far past that. I have very little doubt Wilson would be better with the ball in his hands right now. I really believe at some point this year he's going to come in and have a very big game and play a significant role. If you don't feel comfortable with him in pass pro however, it's gonna be tough to give him meaningful snaps. Taylor IMO is just another version of Dillon. He's a bigger back, strong, he runs forward, he's usually just giving you what the play is blocked for though. He's not adding value.

 

Aaron Jones is the most indispensable piece of the offense and I understand even more now why they were willing to trade for AND pay Taylor ~15M a year. Despite Dillon's struggles, this offense is set up so well for a young QB, but if you added another back like Taylor, a big physical back who's a HR threat with this OL and the receiving threats, who knows what this offense could look like. 

[adambr2]

Doesn't look like we'll be getting that 1st for Aaron. On the bright side, should be a high 2nd!

[HarveysWBs]

6 minutes ago, adambr2 said:

Doesn't look like we'll be getting that 1st for Aaron. On the bright side, should be a high 2nd!

Maybe he’s going to try to out stage his 2018 second half Michael Jordan impersonation against the Bears? 

[Fear The Chorizo]

9 minutes ago, adambr2 said:

Doesn't look like we'll be getting that 1st for Aaron. On the bright side, should be a high 2nd!

In looking at the first 11 weeks of their schedule, if Rodgers is out for any length of time it's going to be a very, very high 2nd round pick.  

With a healthy Rodgers playing well, I thought the Jets were around a 0.500 football team this season based on their tough schedule - without him (especially early), heads are going to roll in Jets-land.

Either way, it's refreshing watching the drama unfold for a team in green and white instead of green and gold

[adambr2]

Sounds like an ankle. If it's a broken ankle his season is screwed. If it's a sprain I would think it isn't super long-term.

[Fear The Chorizo]

18 minutes ago, adambr2 said:

Sounds like an ankle. If it's a broken ankle his season is screwed. If it's a sprain I would think it isn't super long-term.

Sounds like x-rays were negative, but him walking around the locker room in a boot to me indicates one of those high ankle varieties or a significant low ankle ligament-stretcher/dislocation that's got him out a month+.

[yourout]

16 minutes ago, adambr2 said:

Sounds like an ankle. If it's a broken ankle his season is screwed. If it's a sprain I would think it isn't super long-term.

It looked bad. Not Joe Theisman bad.....but bad.

[HarryDoyle]

X-rays were negative on his ankle because he ruptured his Achilles.

https://x.com/GameInjuryDoc/status/1701398921170538815?s=20

[worm81]

I was thinking Achilles the way he got up and went back down the way he did.

[yourout]

Hopefully it's something he can come back from.

I would hate to see his career end that way.