Counsell to Cubs

[Fear The Chorizo]

34 minutes ago, Jimbo said:

I'm a Counsell fan.  His decision to sign with the Cubs surprised me.  I wonder if this is a case of Craig realizing he's done all he can do with this team and organization and wants to take his skills to the next level?  Does he have unfulfilled career goals as a manager (World Series) and is making this move to achieve those career goals?  Is this a case of "quiet quitting" that we all hear about in the work world, and this is his chance to move on?  Currently, I don't have any strong emotions going either way.

 

This is something I've meaning to post, but never got around to it.  Didn't know if it deserved its own thread.  I lived through the Bambi's Bombers/Harvey's Wallbangers era where the Brewers were an AL powerhouse.  Looking at the records the last six season, this current run almost matches it.  People still gloss over the '82 team, I wonder if people will remanence regarding the recent teams?

'78-'83: 93, 95, 86, 92*, 95, 87 wins = 91 average

'18-'23: 96, 89, 78*, 95, 86, 92 wins = 89 average 

 

 

 

IMO it's much easier to maintain a 90ish win average in MLB when you have 3 divisions per league, particularly if you play in a central division that constantly has at least two teams fighting to lose 100x a year.

Those 80s Brewers teams were doing it in the AL east and had HOFers on their rosters.  if they had a similar playoff format then to what they do now I'd wager there would be at least 1 WS title in brewer history - they had some damn good teams not make the playoffs who could've went on a title run.

It's been a good run of winning  Brewer teams lately, but the early 80s brewer teams were better.

[Team Canada]

3 hours ago, MrTPlush said:

Well…then they still screwed up. As the Brewers’ is incorrect then. :)

No, you're completely misunderstanding the rules on apostrophes. Brewers are plural, you don't put another S on plural nouns. For singular, you typically DO add the s (e.g. Adames's),

https://grammarist.com/punctuation/apostrophe-after-s-rules-and-examples/

[Team Canada]

8 hours ago, Sixtolezcano said:

What a waste of time. Everything he said is a bunch of BS. Every answer he gave was just to burnish his reputation and want to look like he actually cares about anyone other than himself. Lies, lies, lies. His answers to the questions remind me exactly how a politician would answer them. I’m disappointed in the reporters (particular Milwaukee JS) not answer any tough questions or hold him accountable to explain his decisions.

I disagree, at last partially. I think largely he's being honest, but most telling is the comment about "needing a new challenge." I hope someone asks a question at some point about why winning a WS for Milwaukee wasn't challenging enough, but the implication is he doesn't think he can. He's taken this team as far as he can go, and since he doesn't see the situation likely to change in the next couple years, he's out.

[rickh150]

What stood out to me was his answer to the media on how he still has these deep relationships with current and past players… how that will not change and how his other relationships in the “community” (maybe neighbors or friends or Whitefish Bay folk)  will continue because they are not baseball first. So good and great….nobody cares about you hobnobbing now, though.

That being said, he is showing no regard for the Brewers fan base, said nothing to them out the door. Ignored or flippantly forgot, whatever. Well, other than that he is looking for a new challenge of beating the Brewers in the NL Central, he could care less about the Brewer fan. And yes, he should. If anyone ever should, it should be him. But not now. Not anymore. 

And he can do what he wants and be Richie Cunningham out the door, but the bridge is burnt on a shallow sports level. Pretty naive or unbelievably cold blooded on his part, and maybe both.

[Axman59]

10 hours ago, TURBO said:

Truth, I thought I was the only one.  lol

I just don't see why he is allowed to share his views on the home town message board.

This is fairly common for baseball message boards. Sons of Sam Horn, a Red Sox site that has been around for about 25 years, has for many years had significant Yankee fan contributors to the site. The differing points of view are welcomed there and the discourse is quite civil.

Apparently Brewers fans are more provincial than Red Sox fans...

[MrTPlush]

When Counsell said he needed a new challenge, I don't think he specified a more challenging one. Maybe he is looking for an easier challenge. Seemed like he struggled with the challenge he already was dealing with. 

 

[Zad Fnark]

Justice would be the Brewers going all the way next year without Counsell.

[MrTPlush]

8 hours ago, rickh150 said:

What stood out to me was his answer to the media on how he still has these deep relationships with current and past players… how that will not change and how his other relationships in the “community” (maybe neighbors or friends or Whitefish Bay folk)  will continue because they are not baseball first. So good and great….nobody cares about you hobnobbing now, though.

That being said, he is showing no regard for the Brewers fan base, said nothing to them out the door. Ignored or flippantly forgot, whatever. Well, other than that he is looking for a new challenge of beating the Brewers in the NL Central, he could care less about the Brewer fan. And yes, he should. If anyone ever should, it should be him. But not now. Not anymore. 

And he can do what he wants and be Richie Cunningham out the door, but the bridge is burnt on a shallow sports level. Pretty naive or unbelievably cold blooded on his part, and maybe both.

I mean, he really didn't say much for the fanbase or even the organization. Pretty amazing for a guy that was employed in his 30s as a player making the majority of career earnings here. Then he got plopped into the literal perfect situation when we gave him a chance to be a manager to even make this record contract possible. 

If he would have ended up somewhere else with a worse FO or bad timing, he could arguably already be ousted and retired from managing. Such a fickle job...if you don't succeed the first chance, no one is likely to care and give you another.

[Jopal78]

39 minutes ago, MrTPlush said:

I mean, he really didn't say much for the fanbase or even the organization. Pretty amazing for a guy that was employed in his 30s as a player making the majority of career earnings here. Then he got plopped into the literal perfect situation when we gave him a chance to be a manager to even make this record contract possible. 

If he would have ended up somewhere else with a worse FO or bad timing, he could arguably already be ousted and retired from managing. Such a fickle job...if you don't succeed the first chance, no one is likely to care and give you another.

Counsell had no problem putting a knife in the back of a fellow manager in seeking his job, while also trying to reset the market for what mangers get paid.

He’s out for one person and one only. Some guy. I’m sure he’ll keep up with his Whitefish Bay crowd from his condo in the Gold Coast in Chicago. 

[MrTPlush]

I am surprised no one has pointed out the person that knows him best (David Stearns), opted to not be aggressive trying to get him and it sounded like they may not have even been willing to make him the highest paid manager in baseball. Despite having an owner with an open wallet and it not counting for luxury tax purposes. Not only that, but they then proceed to give some guy with zero experience peanuts to come manage the Mets. 

While Counsell got some interest around the league, it is a bit interesting Stearns didn't seem to go all out to try and try to get him on his new squad. Maybe he read between the leaves and knew Counsell wasn't going to go to NYC, but it is interesting.

[Oxy]

I haven't read this entire thread, but the fact the the Cubs poached him from a division rival is very important.  I don't think CC is a worth $8M/yr.  However, the Cubs are paying him to NOT be the Brewers manager, and that is very significant.  If CC was a Kansas City native and had been the Royals manager I don't think the Cubs offer him that package (much like NY didn't offer him that package).

[Jopal78]

4 minutes ago, MrTPlush said:

I am surprised no one has pointed out the person that knows him best (David Stearns), opted to not be aggressive trying to get him and it sounded like they may not have even been willing to make him the highest paid manager in baseball. Despite having an owner with an open wallet and it not counting for luxury tax purposes. Not only that, but they then proceed to give some guy with zero experience peanuts to come manage the Mets. 

While Counsell got some interest around the league, it is a bit interesting Stearns didn't seem to go all out to try and try to get him on his new squad. Maybe he read between the leaves and knew Counsell wasn't going to go to NYC, but it is interesting.

Like any corporation teams, even the Mets, have budgets for their divisions: baseball operations, non-baseball operations, etc. Within those Divisions there are budgets for each department like players, a budget for coaches and staff, a budget for scouting, etc.

What’s most likely is Stearns heard Counsell’s ask realized it wasn’t going to work within their constructs and moved on to the next candidate. 
 

That the ‘24 Cubs are going to pay Counsell 8 million to manage, plus the multi-millions Ross is owed to not manage and the salaries of the coaches from Ross’s staff that are let go is what is really surprising outside of the clandestine nature of the process and Counsell’s willingness to put a fellow manager out of work in order to get what he wanted.

[MrTPlush]

32 minutes ago, Jopal78 said:

Like any corporation teams, even the Mets, have budgets for their divisions: baseball operations, non-baseball operations, etc. Within those Divisions there are budgets for each department like players, a budget for coaches and staff, a budget for scouting, etc.

What’s most likely is Stearns heard Counsell’s ask realized it wasn’t going to work within their constructs and moved on to the next candidate. 
 

That the ‘24 Cubs are going to pay Counsell 8 million to manage, plus the multi-millions Ross is owed to not manage and the salaries of the coaches from Ross’s staff that are let go is what is really surprising outside of the clandestine nature of the process and Counsell’s willingness to put a fellow manager out of work in order to get what he wanted.

The Cubs had to of blew through their hypothetical budget, so I don't know if this really holds water then. Like generally I agree, but Counsell's salary wouldn't fit in any teams budget if they had one. And if any team in baseball was going to blow through a budget, no better team than the Mets.

[homer]

42 minutes ago, Jopal78 said:

Like any corporation teams, even the Mets, have budgets for their divisions: baseball operations, non-baseball operations, etc. Within those Divisions there are budgets for each department like players, a budget for coaches and staff, a budget for scouting, etc.

What’s most likely is Stearns heard Counsell’s ask realized it wasn’t going to work within their constructs and moved on to the next candidate. 
 

That the ‘24 Cubs are going to pay Counsell 8 million to manage, plus the multi-millions Ross is owed to not manage and the salaries of the coaches from Ross’s staff that are let go is what is really surprising outside of the clandestine nature of the process and Counsell’s willingness to put a fellow manager out of work in order to get what he wanted.

I can almost guarantee it was because Counsell wanted to stay close to home. The Mets spent something like $343m on payroll last year - $70m more than the next highest team. I don't think another $5 million a year for a manager is outside their budget. 

[Team Canada]

37 minutes ago, homer said:

I can almost guarantee it was because Counsell wanted to stay close to home. The Mets spent something like $343m on payroll last year - $70m more than the next highest team. I don't think another $5 million a year for a manager is outside their budget. 

Yeah, Stearns probably offered $6-7M, and just like Mark didn't get a chance to match, we can be pretty confident that Counsell didn't let anyone else either. He got a gig close to home and that was it. I don't think this is particularly about wanting to manage the Cubs, he just got to get out of Milwaukee but not move.

[MrTPlush]

13 minutes ago, Team Canada said:

Yeah, Stearns probably offered $6-7M, and just like Mark didn't get a chance to match, we can be pretty confident that Counsell didn't let anyone else either. He got a gig close to home and that was it. I don't think this is particularly about wanting to manage the Cubs, he just got to get out of Milwaukee but not move.

Counsell said he didn't go back to the Mets because he knew he wouldn't go there and didn't want to waste time...essentially. It was reported they were never going to go anywhere near the Cubs number though. However, if Counsell was really looking for the best offer to reset the market that doesn't make any sense...nor does not taking it the Brewers.

It is quite likely the Cubs told him to take it or leave it and weren't going to let him shop the offer...or Counsell saw how much the Cubs were about to overpay that he just accepted before the Cubs came to their senses. Because in reality, the Cubs offered waaaay more than they had to because it sounds like he wanted to go to the Cubs and really didn't want to go to the Mets or Brewers.

[ToolShed55]

On 11/7/2023 at 9:39 AM, Samurai Bucky said:

Valdalizing the sign is utter, bush league, horse****.

Be better, Milwaukee.

Have you met people?

[BuckyBrewer61]

As I've reflected more on this, more than anything I think this has led me to a bit of an sports fanhood existential crisis.  Not that this is anything new, but this move hammers it home more than any before it.

 

We really are just rooting for a jersey.  No one that has actually worn that jersey cares about the Brewers as much as we do.  Or at all.  Yes they are highly competitive people.  Yes they want to succeed and win any at bat, game, championship they can.  But they don't actually care about the Milwaukee Brewers like we do. 

 

Not even the kid who grew up here, who was given the opportunity to lead his hometown team to their first championship, cares to stick around to keep trying to win one for his city (and he has been given many quality teams in which to work with...it's not like he's been working with the 2002 roster for the past 9 years)

 

And I don't blame them.  I get it.  Good for Craig and every athlete out there for maximizing their earning potential, doing what makes them happy, etc.

 

But it does make me feel a bit foolish as a fan to care so much about these teams, when those wearing the jersey are simply passing through town.

[ToolShed55]

I hate hate hate the decision of CC to go to the Cubs. I agree that only the Cardinals would have made me angrier. (You just know the "greatest fans in the MLB"TM would have had a field day).

 

That said, if WE had paid a MANAGER $40m for 5 years, this place would have gone full Jets vs Sharks!

[RobertCrawley]

17 hours ago, CheeseheadInQC said:

I hate it, hate it, hate it, but that is actually considered correct apostrophe usage now.

Can be. Depends on who you're writing for.

[RobertCrawley]

1 hour ago, homer said:

I can almost guarantee it was because Counsell wanted to stay close to home. The Mets spent something like $343m on payroll last year - $70m more than the next highest team. I don't think another $5 million a year for a manager is outside their budget. 

We heard similar guarantees when people waxed poetic about Counsellout's loyalty and wealth. No way he would take millions from the Mets.

[ToolShed55]

"I can't believe we paid $40m for"___________ (insert managerial decision here).

 

That would have been HALF of next year's posts.

[RobertCrawley]

2 hours ago, MrTPlush said:

I am surprised no one has pointed out the person that knows him best (David Stearns), opted to not be aggressive trying to get him and it sounded like they may not have even been willing to make him the highest paid manager in baseball. Despite having an owner with an open wallet and it not counting for luxury tax purposes. Not only that, but they then proceed to give some guy with zero experience peanuts to come manage the Mets. 

While Counsell got some interest around the league, it is a bit interesting Stearns didn't seem to go all out to try and try to get him on his new squad. Maybe he read between the leaves and knew Counsell wasn't going to go to NYC, but it is interesting.

Making him the highest paid manager in MLB is not aggressive?

[MrTPlush]

26 minutes ago, RobertCrawley said:

Making him the highest paid manager in MLB is not aggressive?

I don't recall the Mets offer being stated as such...only 'significantly less' than the Cubs offer. Was that still highest paid manager money? Idk...maybe so. Even if it was, considering their financial standing and they probably knew the Brewers would offer at least around that highest paid manager in MLB amount....no, not really aggressive, in my opinion. 

[DR28]

Rumor has it that Cubs just might be the most aggressive after Ohtani,