Counsell to Cubs

[tmwiese55]

1 minute ago, daboss said:

Aloha tm, the articles I were reading on Monday brought up issues between small vs large market teams. I didn't think it was relevant to the discussion about "swooping" in and hiring Craig C once he was officially no longer employed. I'll find it because the author's point was that with all the "advantages" "small" market teams have and the Cubs never acting like a "larger" market team, this transaction showed they, the Cubs are finally acting like a "big" organization. For me, I don't care about small or big, principles, character and integrity are important. So, I feel for Ross and Cub fans as well as the Craig and Brewer fans current situation. All I know is that many I've spoken with or articles I've read, including not from Chicago are saying how amazing this deal is, no one saw it coming. Let's tell you how Hoyer kept it quiet, etc. I personally don't find it amazing and think it gives baseball a bad name. As I said previously, had Craig taken the year off, be with family then come back next year and Chicago doesn't extend Ross and interviews Craig... that's okay with me I can roll with it and that's for any managerial candidate. But right now we're told, the FO had to pounce on this once in a lifetime chance. I don't buy it. Good luck to your Brewers. Mahalo!

Yea, what "advantages" do "small" market teams have?     That's what I'm getting at, this is really a thing, big markets think this?

[Axman59]

10 minutes ago, tmwiese55 said:

Forgot to add this earlier after reading the comment here about rooting for jerseys.  Not sure if the OP knew it but this was on a Seinfeld episode  probably around 30 years ago already. 

 

 

Me: That wasn't 30 years ago!

Does math.

Me: Daaaaamn...  Can adult diapers be that far off?

[brewers888]

1 hour ago, markedman5 said:

 

Now that Counsell has moved on from us we should move on from anything to do with him which means saying no to Murphy. Its time for some fresh blood and a voice from outside the organization preferably a young guy analytically aware so that means avoiding someone like Mattingly as well.

[yfinn6]

25 minutes ago, Axman59 said:

 

Me: That wasn't 30 years ago!

Does math.

Me: Daaaaamn...  Can adult diapers be that far off?

You're closer to adult diapers than you are this clip, if that makes you feel any better. 

[Austin Tatious]

General thoughts.   CC probably envisioned moving a year ago.  You could read between the lines and body language providing zero encouragement about being in Milwaukee.   The Chicago part shocked me and at my age it is hard to shock me with anything.   They didn’t even have an opening.  While they are trying to whitewash it, it’s unprofessional.   The Chicago media is saying that Ross was totally blindsided.   Their organization is not my problem or concern so let them function with their own conscience and ramifications of others in the industry who might not want to go there in the future because it shows how they will be treated.

CC has about the same sincerity as Reggie White did when he said God guided him to Green Bay.   They are lining their pockets in those situations.  
 

 

[Austin Tatious]

Regarding Mark, we can blame him if you wish but we’ve been run really well for a number of years.  We used to overpay for the Braden Loopers and Jeff Suppans.  I don’t think that’s the answer.  If we overpay we end up in quicksand for mediocrities.  It’s not so much being cheap as it is keeping flexibility and not spending on talent that’s not really worth it.   Keep your powder dry and deploy resources without crippling you in a way that removes all flexibility.   It has worked and I’m fine with passing the likes of Suppan, Looper and Lohse.   Look for market inefficiencies (e.g., juco arms) and more reliable bets.   In the 1990s we drafted high on super high risk arms and overspent on mediocre free agents.   Result was prolonged losing with no hope.

We have lost Stearns and Counsell.  To me, what we need to be sure about now is retaining our remaining organizational intelligence.  Look at our drafts before and after Tod Johnson’s arrival in 2017.  For those who would always defend the prior drafting regimes because of crapshoot type arguments, we now have an HP former executive who has a highly competent process and the results have been outstanding undercutting the prior defenses.   Similarly, look at the approach with Latin America.  We have a top farm system now with a steady stream of talent on the cusp.  

Look at player development with things like the pitching lab and the developing of catchers with Charlie Greene’s group.  

Yes, we lost Stearns and CC.  We can take both of their tenures and pick apart a ledger of good moves and bad moves.  But IMO that’s beside the point.  We’ve had an infrastructure and organizational mindset that has been the real secret sauce.  Now, if we start having a brain drain in our drafting department, Latin American scouting regime and player development, then I will get really concerned.  That will be tough to replicate.  

Mark has the opportunity to keep all of that intact.  I think he’s smart enough to realize that.

[SF70]

8 minutes ago, Austin Tatious said:

Regarding Mark, we can blame him if you wish but we’ve been run really well for a number of years.  We used to overpay for the Braden Loopers and Jeff Suppans.  I don’t think that’s the answer.  If we overpay we end up in quicksand for mediocrities.  

We have lost Stearns and Counsell.  To me, what we need to be sure about now is retaining our remaining organizational intelligence.  Look at our drafts before and after Tod Johnson’s arrival in 2017.  For those who would always defend the prior drafting regimes because of crapshoot type arguments, we now have an HP former executive who has a highly competent process and the results have been outstanding undercutting the prior defenses.   Similarly, look at the approach with Latin America.  We have a top farm system now with a steady stream of talent on the cusp.  

Look at player development with things like the pitching lab and the developing of catchers with Charlie Greene’s group.  

Yes, we lost Stearns and CC.  We can take both of them and pick apart a ledger of good moves and bad moves.  But IMO that’s beside the point.  We’ve had an infrastructure and organizational mindset that has been the real secret sauce.  Now, if we start having a brain drain in our drafting department, Latin American scouting regime and player development, then I will get really concerned.  That will be tough to replicate.  

Mark has the opportunity to keep all of that intact.  I think he’s smart enough to realize that.

Spot-on analysis on our dynamic infrastructure. 

One thing I’m sure about Attanasio is he’s smart enough to know that a strong infrastructure is the key to sustained success as a SM team and I’m confident he’ll continue to hire the right people, including paying and promoting the people he has employed.

[Oxy]

Sure, Ostentatious...but can Arnold do something that "moves the needle?"  Maybe we can get Jeimar Candelario?  You need to be less reasonable and more reactionary.

[DR28]

JP Morosi said on MLB Network, Mattingly is the name to watch for regarding manager selection.

[adambr2]

29 minutes ago, DR28 said:

JP Morosi said on MLB Network, Mattingly is the name to watch for regarding manager selection.

Sounds like the Joe Barry of MLB Managers. 

[Slippery_Pete]

On 11/7/2023 at 10:23 PM, Fear The Chorizo said:

Chicago isn't new York in terms of sports media scrutiny...but the Cubs' organization and fans aren't those loveable losers anymore either and that town can be brutal on a baseball team that fails to live up to expectations.  CC hasn't dealt with that kind of environment as a manager or as a player, so it will be interesting to see how he handles that, because he doesn't come off as an A type personality that enjoys being in the headlines (good or bad)

I'm not exactly sure what the Cubs should be expected to do just because they paid a guy to manage them close to double what the average mlb player salary currently is.  Obviously a whole offseason of more changes, but right now they might be the 4th best team in the division if people assume the cards 2023 season was an aberration.

 

Fast forward to the dog days of summer, following a tough loss...

 

 

[BlightyBrew]

7 hours ago, brewers888 said:

Now that Counsell has moved on from us we should move on from anything to do with him which means saying no to Murphy. Its time for some fresh blood and a voice from outside the organization preferably a young guy analytically aware so that means avoiding someone like Mattingly as well.

I'm hoping that the next manager is more of a hybrid in terms of running the roster and managing an individual game.  Understanding that analytics is a tool, a great powerful tool, but not necessarily the  only tool in the toolbox and  it might not be the best tool to use for every in game tactic or even line up construction for a particular game on a particular night.  

I agree we need a new voice and someone from outside the organization.  Sometimes you don't know what you have or don't have until you see it through the eyes of a stranger.

[brewers888]

If this team hires Mattingly it will be due to Attanasio meddling so he could bring in a guy that he enjoyed watching as a player since he grew up a yankees fan. Out of all the names listed so far he is far and away the one that I want to avoid at all costs.

[SF70]

2 hours ago, brewers888 said:

If this team hires Mattingly it will be due to Attanasio meddling so he could bring in a guy that he enjoyed watching as a player since he grew up a yankees fan. Out of all the names listed so far he is far and away the one that I want to avoid at all costs.

Mattingly would make a great manager for this team.

Tons of managing experience overall including years of working with young talent at Miami. 

What impressed me watching those Marlins teams was he got them to relentlessly compete even tho the rosters he had were terrible.

Love his aggressiveness on the bases, which this team needs with all of our speed and baserunning ability. 

Players seemed to enjoy playing for him so I believe he has the requisite communication skills.

 

[Underachiever]

3 hours ago, brewers888 said:

If this team hires Mattingly it will be due to Attanasio meddling so he could bring in a guy that he enjoyed watching as a player since he grew up a yankees fan. Out of all the names listed so far he is far and away the one that I want to avoid at all costs.

What's the most negative spin that can be put on anything? You are relentless.

[MrTPlush]

2 hours ago, SF70 said:

What impressed me watching those Marlins teams was he got them to relentlessly compete even tho the rosters he had were terrible.

 

I mean...that is a stretch. 

[Thurston Fluff]

16 hours ago, Austin Tatious said:

Yes, we lost Stearns and CC.  We can take both of their tenures and pick apart a ledger of good moves and bad moves.  But IMO that’s beside the point.  We’ve had an infrastructure and organizational mindset that has been the real secret sauce.  Now, if we start having a brain drain in our drafting department, Latin American scouting regime and player development, then I will get really concerned.  That will be tough to replicate.  

Mark has the opportunity to keep all of that intact.  I think he’s smart enough to realize that.

This is the most important part of a very well thought out post. It's why I'd prefer a signing from within for our next manager. The best way not to lose our good infrastructure is to make those who built it feel like their best path for their career is staying here. Matt Arnold is a great example. That's not something a team that secretly hires a new manager while the current one is still employed can offer. The Cubs appear to operate on the shiny new toy theory. They get the shiniest toy possible, when a shinier toy comes along they go after it. I can't deny it worked for them ten years ago but it didn't sustain long term success.

If the goal is to continue to be competitive, organizational continuity is important. Losing a piece or two doesn't matter as much as making sure all the pieces feel wanted and welcome. The way the Brewers treated Counsell showed that. The way the Cubs treated Ross didn't. It doesn't take a genius to know which organization competent front office personnel looking to build and sustain a career would want to work for.

[torts]

2 hours ago, MrTPlush said:

I mean...that is a stretch. 

He didn't say win, he said compete.  So I'm not sure showing W/L really translates.  

[brewmann04]

On 11/7/2023 at 1:56 PM, sveumrules said:

You keep referencing this 1-7 playoff record, Counsell has a 7-12 playoff record.

yes your correct but since losing to the Dodgers he 1-7 poor 

[Team Canada]

In any case, it looks to be moot as Mattingly is now the "offensive coordinator" for the Blue Jays as well, whatever that means.

[brewmann04]

i sure if they wanted Donny Baseball as a Manager that would get done  but matbe he likes it up North

[MrTPlush]

1 hour ago, torts said:

He didn't say win, he said compete.  So I'm not sure showing W/L really translates.  

Well, yah, that would have zero basis to actually prove it. Impossible to be wrong then. What exactly is competing on a 90+ lose team? Players are going out there to win and play good regardless...unless they want to lose their job and not play baseball. 

The whole team wasn't revolting against him? Pretty low bar to clear.

[torts]

1 hour ago, MrTPlush said:

Well, yah, that would have zero basis to actually prove it. Impossible to be wrong then. What exactly is competing on a 90+ lose team? Players are going out there to win and play good regardless...unless they want to lose their job and not play baseball. 

The whole team wasn't revolting against him? Pretty low bar to clear.

I dunno did you look at any other data?  W/L is pretty lazy, you could have looked at games within 2 runs or run differential, or I dunno, actual performance data other than w/l.  

[MrTPlush]

1 minute ago, torts said:

I dunno did you look at any other data?  W/L is pretty lazy, you could have looked at games within 2 runs or run differential, or I dunno, actual performance data other than w/l.  

Is there any data that shows when teams aren't trying to compete? Because I don't know if such data exists. This isn't the NBA, I don't usually see teams trying to throw games. Even the sadder years of Brewers baseball since 2007, I never felt like the guys were out there trying to lose and not caring. 

[markedman5]

Ross taking the high road