Brewers Designate Dinelson Lamet, Pedro Severino For Assignment

[Team Canada]

3 hours ago, Hacksaw Jim Duggan said:

the Hader trade for Dinelson, Ruiz, and Rogers trade will go down as one of the worst trades of the Daniel Sterns era.  

Both first and last name wrong - well done.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

12 hours ago, Hacksaw Jim Duggan said:

I know hindsight is 20/20 but now that the season is over, but the Hader trade for Dinelson, Ruiz, and Rogers trade will go down as one of the worst trades of the Daniel Sterns era.  He gave away the Brewers best relievers with a year of control for two guys that are free agents and a third position player who is currently blocked from the big leagues.  Dinelson would have been a really good long reliever or sixth starter for this team.  Sterns better stick to plan in the future.  He gave away a huge trade chip for nothing.

You can't preface things by saying "hindsight is 20/20", then immediately write off the two biggest "gets" in this deal in Ruiz and Gasser. Also, I get the Inman/Gasser comparison, except that they have completely different body types, throw completely different stuff, and throw with different arms. Other than that, exactly the same! 

[UpandIn]

13 hours ago, Hacksaw Jim Duggan said:

I know hindsight is 20/20 but now that the season is over, but the Hader trade for Dinelson, Ruiz, and Rogers trade will go down as one of the worst trades of the Daniel Sterns era.  He gave away the Brewers best relievers with a year of control for two guys that are free agents and a third position player who is currently blocked from the big leagues.  Dinelson would have been a really good long reliever or sixth starter for this team.  Sterns better stick to plan in the future.  He gave away a huge trade chip for nothing.

Is this a bit or do you really think Daniel Sterns is our GM and we got "nothing" in return? That Gasser in particular, but Gasser and Ruiz are "nothing?"

That...just can't be serious.

[UpandIn]

12 hours ago, Hacksaw Jim Duggan said:

Gasser reminds me of Will Inman.  Ruiz like I said is blocked.  

LOL...he reminds you of Will Inman? How so exactly?

And Ruiz is blocked? Because we've got good OFers? Good...left handed hitting OFers? Is Wiemer also blocked? Hey, lets just not draft any OFers for...IDK, I guess 3-4 years. Why bring a guy into the system who is..."blocked."

 

We definitely don't need guys who can hit left handed pitching on this team. Nah, we have a surplus of that!

[Jopal78]

13 hours ago, Brewcrew82 said:

Gasser and Ruiz are two really promising prospects, so he didn't "give away Hader for nothing". They will determine the outcome of this trade. If one or both of them turn into major contributors going forward, then the trade will look a lot better. 

But the bar is set a bit higher than that isn't it? Hader wasn't just a "major contributor" to the Brewers, he's arguably the best relief pitcher in the game, the best left handed reliever, a perennial All-Star with multiple sets of hardware as the best reliever in his league. 

Without a doubt, the return for Hader in the short run blew up in Stearns' face like a loaded cigar. Given the initial outcome, for this trade to ever be anything more than a thick black mark on Stearns' permanent record they probably need one if not both of Ruiz and Gasser to become more than just "major contributors".

[MrTPlush]

Stearns dragged himself in the mud pretty good at the end of year press conference. Pretty much to the point admitting he kind of regretted the trade. He expected more out of the replacements in the pen and didn't expect the team to respond so poorly after the trade. It cratered the season.

In retrospect I think Stearns wishes he had just held onto Hader till the end of the year. Wouldn't have cratered the morale and the bullpen would have been better off...likely in the playoffs. He then could have traded Hader in the offseason where he would have had an easier time replacing him and the team would have gotten over it by the start of the season. The lesser return probably would have been worth actually making the postseason this year and not ticked the fanbase off so much. Trading Hader ticked people off as is, then missing the playoffs as the bullpen constantly blew games, just a disaster. They were practically begging people to come to the ballpark by the time the end of the season rolled around.

[endaround]

If your lottery ticket wins it doesn't mean that the lottery was a good investment.  Gosser and Ruiz are 40 grade prospects and should be valued as such. If they turn out that doesn't make the trade any better than if they don't. 

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

16 minutes ago, endaround said:

If your lottery ticket wins it doesn't mean that the lottery was a good investment.  Gosser and Ruiz are 40 grade prospects and should be valued as such. If they turn out that doesn't make the trade any better than if they don't. 

Except that prospect grades are completely and utterly subjective. The Brewers could internally see Gasser and Ruiz as two of the top prospects in their system, and judging by the way they aggressively promoted Gasser especially, that wouldn't surprise me. 

Isn't it more prudent to grade this deal on the eventual overall sum of the parts, rather than on subjective, outside-of-the-organization prospect analysis?

[Brewcrew82]

2 hours ago, Jopal78 said:

But the bar is set a bit higher than that isn't it? Hader wasn't just a "major contributor" to the Brewers, he's arguably the best relief pitcher in the game, the best left handed reliever, a perennial All-Star with multiple sets of hardware as the best reliever in his league. 

Without a doubt, the return for Hader in the short run blew up in Stearns' face like a loaded cigar. Given the initial outcome, for this trade to ever be anything more than a thick black mark on Stearns' permanent record they probably need one if not both of Ruiz and Gasser to become more than just "major contributors".

And we were set to lose him for nothing in free agency or receive an even lesser return this offseason if we continued to hang on to him....Overall, your perspective is retrospective, when it should be prospective, meaning the value that Hader would have provided to us in the last year and a half of his team control. Gasser and/or Ruiz becoming major contributors over the course of a potential 6 years of team control would almost certainly exceed that value.

[Brewcrew82]

1 hour ago, endaround said:

If your lottery ticket wins it doesn't mean that the lottery was a good investment.  Gosser and Ruiz are 40 grade prospects and should be valued as such. If they turn out that doesn't make the trade any better than if they don't. 

Gasser and Ruiz are not "lottery tickets". They're borderline top 100 prospects at this point and proven performers at the AAA level. A lottery ticket is a prospect in the DSL or Low-A, who has potential yet is light on actual production. I.E., Freddy Peralta in the Adam Lind trade. 

[Outlander]

1 hour ago, endaround said:

If your lottery ticket wins it doesn't mean that the lottery was a good investment.  Gosser and Ruiz are 40 grade prospects and should be valued as such. If they turn out that doesn't make the trade any better than if they don't. 

Of course it does. They get judged on results, he will look like a genius if they turn into all stars. If the players end up being nothing the trade will be a black mark on Stearns forever. It's the reality of the business whether you like it or not.

 

 

[wiguy94]

2 hours ago, endaround said:

If your lottery ticket wins it doesn't mean that the lottery was a good investment.  Gosser and Ruiz are 40 grade prospects and should be valued as such. If they turn out that doesn't make the trade any better than if they don't. 

Gasser, a competitive balance round 2 pick in 2021, is most definitely not a lottery ticket. Even calling Ruiz a lottery ticket is ludicrous considering he was in the MLB when we traded for him. When you refer to a prospect as a lottery ticket, you're referring to guys playing at most A ball and generally even lower than that (example being us getting Freddy, a 19-year-old pitcher in rookie ball, in the Lind trade). 

[Hacksaw Jim Duggan]

I made the comment about David Stearns (did I spell it correctly?) in haste trying to ruffle the feathers of the Stearns apologists.  Seems to have worked judging by the commentary.  Trading the most dominant left-handed reliever of the past three years for washed up bullpen help, a throw in pitcher who was instantly cut, and two sub optimal minor league talents showed an inability of the GM to evaluate talent.  Ruiz was washed up until this year as of now he is a one-year minor league wonder.  He is no better than a utility fielder in the pros with below replacement level defense.  He looked awful in Milwaukee last year and I recall him failing in his callup to the Padres before the trade.  San Diego knew exactly what it was trading away a Luis Urias part II.  How exactly is a team with playoff aspirations going to suffer through Ruiz batting/fielding struggles in the pros?  Will Inman reminds me of Josh Gasser and I will stand by that.   Maybe Gasser's floor is a reliever but his ceiling will never be higher than a 4/5 starter.  He is no Justin Verlander or even Corbin Burnes.  By Double A the prospects have already been evaluated not too many players go under the radar by that level.  Has it ever occured to anyone that maybe Ruiz got time in the show and Gasser being promoted had everything to do with the GM trying to save face?

 

As for talking about difficulty finding value for Hader that is simple.  Hader is not your typical reliever.  He is dominant, left-handed, and in his prime.  Recall what the Cubs gave up for Aroldis Chapman and what Cleveland gave up for Andrew Miller.  Stearns simply failed and his mea culpa is a fair admission of under evaluating a dominant reliever.  How could he not think that trading away the team's most talented reliever wouldn't destroy team moral?  Simply put David Stearns (did I spell it right?)  destroyed the bullpen because his ace reliever had a tough month?  

[MrTPlush]

5 minutes ago, Hacksaw Jim Duggan said:

Recall what the Cubs gave up for Aroldis Chapman and what Cleveland gave up for Andrew Miller.  Stearns simply failed and his mea culpa is a fair admission of under evaluating a dominant reliever.  

Recall that it is 2022, not 2016.

[Brewcrew82]

29 minutes ago, Hacksaw Jim Duggan said:

I made the comment about David Stearns (did I spell it correctly?) in haste trying to ruffle the feathers of the Stearns apologists.  Seems to have worked judging by the commentary.  Trading the most dominant left-handed reliever of the past three years for washed up bullpen help, a throw in pitcher who was instantly cut, and two sub optimal minor league talents showed an inability of the GM to evaluate talent.  Ruiz was washed up until this year as of now he is a one-year minor league wonder.  He is no better than a utility fielder in the pros with below replacement level defense.  He looked awful in Milwaukee last year and I recall him failing in his callup to the Padres before the trade.  San Diego knew exactly what it was trading away a Luis Urias part II.  How exactly is a team with playoff aspirations going to suffer through Ruiz batting/fielding struggles in the pros?  Will Inman reminds me of Josh Gasser and I will stand by that.   Maybe Gasser's floor is a reliever but his ceiling will never be higher than a 4/5 starter.  He is no Justin Verlander or even Corbin Burnes.  By Double A the prospects have already been evaluated not too many players go under the radar by that level.  Has it ever occured to anyone that maybe Ruiz got time in the show and Gasser being promoted had everything to do with the GM trying to save face?

 

As for talking about difficulty finding value for Hader that is simple.  Hader is not your typical reliever.  He is dominant, left-handed, and in his prime.  Recall what the Cubs gave up for Aroldis Chapman and what Cleveland gave up for Andrew Miller.  Stearns simply failed and his mea culpa is a fair admission of under evaluating a dominant reliever.  How could he not think that trading away the team's most talented reliever wouldn't destroy team moral?  Simply put David Stearns (did I spell it right?)  destroyed the bullpen because his ace reliever had a tough month?  

LOL Ruiz was in the show even before being traded to the Brewers. Your first sentence says it all as you're not actually interested in honest conversation, but in "ruffling the feathers of the Stearns apologists." So, forgive us for not taking anything you say in the following sentences seriously. Rarely have I seen a single post be wrong on so many levels, but this may take the cake. 

[Hacksaw Jim Duggan]

What show did Ruiz make?  Did you make a cake?  Can I have a piece

[Brewcrew82]

5 minutes ago, Hacksaw Jim Duggan said:

What show did Ruiz make?  Did you make a cake?  Can I have a piece

Had 27 at-bats on the Padres roster from 7/12 until 7/29, literally just before the Hader trade. And no, you can't have a piece, cause I don't share cake with people who are only out to "ruffle feathers". 

[MrTPlush]

I mean, there really isn't much to argue about. Even Stearns admitted he kind of blew it. Reality is, it was a mistake...and ruined the season. Anyone would go back and trade those prospects for a postseason appearance. I don't think judging it in retrospect is totally unreasonable because at the time this really wasn't a shocking potential outcome. It isn't like the Marlins trading Yelich and you would've never seen it coming. I thought Stearns would do enough to offset the loss during the regular season and didn't expect the team to get that down about it. However, if I was picking a second most likely option...this was definitely it and it was about 50/50 how it would go. Stearns was hoping to tread water while adding some prospects. Instead, he rammed the titanic straight into an iceberg to sink the entire season. 

Is what it is. All we can do now is hope the prospects become useful members of a winning team down the road.

[sveumrules]

1 hour ago, MrTPlush said:

Reality is, it was a mistake...and ruined the season. Anyone would go back and trade those prospects for a postseason appearance.

Posted this on another thread, but the writing was on the wall well before the deadline. After the franchise best 32-18 start they went 25-27 heading into the deadline. Here are the splits from those two runs of games...

04/07-05/30 (32-18) 
PIT: 81 ERA- (4th) | 83 FIP- (2nd) | 8.2 rWAR (4th) | 8.6 fWAR (1st)
OFF: 228 RS (7th) | 103 wRC+ (10th) | 7.0 WAR (7th)
About what what we expected coming into the season, a dominant pitching staff and an above average offense leading to one of the better teams in baseball.

06/01-07/31 (25-27)
PIT: 107 ERA- (18th) | 106 FIP- (21st) | 3.1 rWAR (20th) | 3.1 fWAR (23rd)
OFF: 239 R (12th) | 111 wRC+ (7th) | 9.9 WAR (6th)
Offense mostly held serve adding 8 points of wRC+ and almost 3 WAR, though run scoring fell off a little relative to the rest of the league. Pitching went in the tank. Hader missing time and giving up runs in bunches instead of putting up all zeroes the main culprit (+1.5 rWAR first 50, -1.0 rWAR next 52). During this stretch the pitching staff essentially consisted of four guys, Burnes (1.6 rWAR), Williams (1.6 rWAR), Woddruff (1.5 rWAR) and Box (0.7 rWAR). Our fifth best pitcher during this stretch was Jandel Gustave (0.3 rWAR), that pretty much says it all.

I wouldn’t go back and trade those prospects for a playoff appearance, this team wasn’t going anywhere anyway.

[Brewcrew82]

13 minutes ago, sveumrules said:

 

Posted this on another thread, but the writing was on the wall well before the deadline. After the franchise best 32-18 start they went 25-27 heading into the deadline. Here are the splits from those two runs of games...

04/07-05/30 (32-18) 
PIT: 81 ERA- (4th) | 83 FIP- (2nd) | 8.2 rWAR (4th) | 8.6 fWAR (1st)
OFF: 228 RS (7th) | 103 wRC+ (10th) | 7.0 WAR (7th)
About what what we expected coming into the season, a dominant pitching staff and an above average offense leading to one of the better teams in baseball.

06/01-07/31 (25-27)
PIT: 107 ERA- (18th) | 106 FIP- (21st) | 3.1 rWAR (20th) | 3.1 fWAR (23rd)
OFF: 239 R (12th) | 111 wRC+ (7th) | 9.9 WAR (6th)
Offense mostly held serve adding 8 points of wRC+ and almost 3 WAR, though run scoring fell off a little relative to the rest of the league. Pitching went in the tank. Hader missing time and giving up runs in bunches instead of putting up all zeroes the main culprit (+1.5 rWAR first 50, -1.0 rWAR next 52). During this stretch the pitching staff essentially consisted of four guys, Burnes (1.6 rWAR), Williams (1.6 rWAR), Woddruff (1.5 rWAR) and Box (0.7 rWAR). Our fifth best pitcher during this stretch was Jandel Gustave (0.3 rWAR), that pretty much says it all.

I wouldn’t go back and trade those prospects for a playoff appearance, this team wasn’t going anywhere anyway.

I don't entirely agree. We blew an MLB-leading 16 saves after the Hader-trade, including several in September after Hader righted the ship. We turn two of those games around (Rockies, Marlins, etc.) and we make the postseason, despite how mediocre we were otherwise playing after May. 

[UpandIn]

4 hours ago, Hacksaw Jim Duggan said:

I made the comment about David Stearns (did I spell it correctly?) in haste trying to ruffle the feathers of the Stearns apologists.  Seems to have worked judging by the commentary.  Trading the most dominant left-handed reliever of the past three years for washed up bullpen help, a throw in pitcher who was instantly cut, and two sub optimal minor league talents showed an inability of the GM to evaluate talent.  Ruiz was washed up until this year as of now he is a one-year minor league wonder.  He is no better than a utility fielder in the pros with below replacement level defense.  He looked awful in Milwaukee last year and I recall him failing in his callup to the Padres before the trade.  San Diego knew exactly what it was trading away a Luis Urias part II.  How exactly is a team with playoff aspirations going to suffer through Ruiz batting/fielding struggles in the pros?  Will Inman reminds me of Josh Gasser and I will stand by that.   Maybe Gasser's floor is a reliever but his ceiling will never be higher than a 4/5 starter.  He is no Justin Verlander or even Corbin Burnes.  By Double A the prospects have already been evaluated not too many players go under the radar by that level.  Has it ever occured to anyone that maybe Ruiz got time in the show and Gasser being promoted had everything to do with the GM trying to save face?

 

As for talking about difficulty finding value for Hader that is simple.  Hader is not your typical reliever.  He is dominant, left-handed, and in his prime.  Recall what the Cubs gave up for Aroldis Chapman and what Cleveland gave up for Andrew Miller.  Stearns simply failed and his mea culpa is a fair admission of under evaluating a dominant reliever.  How could he not think that trading away the team's most talented reliever wouldn't destroy team moral?  Simply put David Stearns (did I spell it right?)  destroyed the bullpen because his ace reliever had a tough month?  

I honestly couldn't get past, "Ruiz was washed up until this year."

So at 22 he was...washed up. Yeah, that tracks.

[Jim French Stepstool]

2 hours ago, MrTPlush said:

 Stearns was hoping to tread water while adding some prospects. Instead, he rammed the titanic straight into an iceberg to sink the entire season. 

 

The first sentence sums up Stearns' philosophy re the trade about as well as one sentence can. Rodgers' performance kept the water from being treaded.

But I think the iceberg was largely due to his assuming the teams' response to the deal would be a little more professional than it was.

[UpandIn]

13 minutes ago, Jim French Stepstool said:

The first sentence sums up Stearns' philosophy re the trade about as well as one sentence can. Rodgers' performance kept the water from being treaded.

But I think the iceberg was largely due to his assuming the teams' response to the deal would be a little more professional than it was.

That and Bush+Rogers would give you a deeper pen(and Rosenthal). And then it just seemed like Boxberger, Bush, Rogers and even Williams a couple times would take turns blowing leads. Very small, narrow leads as we played a lot of close games, but...still. 

 

And then also, as Attanasio said, there was a trade(s) that fell apart that they thought they would be able to complete. 

[Axman59]

17 minutes ago, Jim French Stepstool said:

But I think the iceberg was largely due to his assuming the teams' response to the deal would be a little more professional than it was.

 

This was Stearns acting like a fantasy baseball owner and being oblivious to the idea that his actions were going to gut the team like a fish. People on this board recognized it the day the trade happened. People are not robots. Hopefully Stearns realizes that now.

[MrTPlush]

2 hours ago, sveumrules said:

I wouldn’t go back and trade those prospects for a playoff appearance, this team wasn’t going anywhere anyway.

With Woodruff/Burnes and Hader/Williams they most certainly could have gone far. Brewers could have marched to a NLCS with garbage batting performances. Would they get through a 7 game series with poor batting? Probably not, but they can get hot at any time for no good reason. They had World Series quality pitching. Those aces and really good back end bullpen guys can win games against anyone.

Was it likely? No, but it never is or will be for the Brewers…so if you want to look at it that way they should blow up the entire team this off-season. Next years team will most certainly be no brighter on paper barring one crazy off-season.

The trade ended up terrible. Even the guy who made the trade can accept that.