2023-24 Bucks Season Thread

[BrewerFan]

On 10/11/2023 at 9:58 AM, homer said:

People are gushing about Andre Jackson so far. I don't see how he makes a lineup that includes Giannis because he can't shoot but he might get minutes this year.

I don't think we need it to be Giannis and 4 shooters any longer. We have Dame who can break anyone down off the dribble, Giannis who is a menace in the open court OR in iso in the half court and Middleton who's great at catch and shoot, OR at getting to his sport and hitting a contested mid range jumper. 

 

On 10/11/2023 at 10:07 AM, wallus said:

If he could shoot even a little bit, he would have been a top 5 pick. He does tons of little things like Draymond Green (not calling him Draymond Green). He shouldn't play a ton of minutes with Giannis but he looks to be at minimum a regular season rotation player which is just fine for a 2nd round pick.

That is the guy that everyone uses as a comp. He makes incredibly smart decisions, moves the ball, rebounds and plays great defense. 

I'm more than happy with him as the starting SG with Dame/Middleton/Giannis/Lopez. And you can just run an actual offense around him. Lets see Dame coming off some picks. That's something he's never done much of because he's always been so ball dominant, but I just think back to Reggie Miller or Ray Allen and they'd run multiple screens for him and that also opens up the backside as you have the pickers who people sleep on(Especially if it's a guy like Dame). 

 

Of course, the way people are gassing up Marjon, maybe he really has made that MASSIVE jump and he's the starting 2.

[CheezWizHed]

I really doubt AJJ or MB are the starting SG this year.  In the rotation defensively against certain players, yes I can see that, but I doubt they are ready for starter minutes.  If either one sniffs the starting lineup, it would be great...but because they took a huge jump skill wise.

PC still makes the most sense as a starter to me.  He has similar traits to AJJ - smart, athletic, moves without the ball, rebounds - just shorter and shoots better. I think this defense will suit PC well also.  Then let Beasley be the 6th man off the bench. 

I've heard that AJJ might be able to handle the PG responsibilities... Having him take some backup PG minutes on the second team with Beasley, Khris*, Crowder, and Bobby could be fun. 

*-not stating that Khris won't be a starter, but there is often start minutes overlap with the second team. Having Khris play a lot of minutes with the second team gives him more shot opportunities than with GA and Dame.

[Joseph Zarr]

Today I will watch Damien Lillard and Giannis Antetokounmpo play for he same team from Milwaukee for the first time.

[Joseph Zarr]

 

[rickh150]

Not a fan of Dame's game....the Bucks offense had a certain flow to it.  When Dame gets the ball, it's pause...step fake....pause.....fade away contested shot.  I can see just from preseason that this is going to rub some the wrong way.  It ticked me off immediately and I'm not playing. If it's end of shot clock, ok....but we don't need him scoring 30.  He needs to score 20, DEFEND, and work on his passing skills.....even if, for horror, it doesn't result in an assist.

[BrewerFan]

2 hours ago, rickh150 said:

Not a fan of Dame's game....the Bucks offense had a certain flow to it.  When Dame gets the ball, it's pause...step fake....pause.....fade away contested shot.  I can see just from preseason that this is going to rub some the wrong way.  It ticked me off immediately and I'm not playing. If it's end of shot clock, ok....but we don't need him scoring 30.  He needs to score 20, DEFEND, and work on his passing skills.....even if, for horror, it doesn't result in an assist.

Well, it's pre-season. It's really just meant to get their legs back, get some cohesion as a team.

But the thing you're looking for? 20, DEFEND(he can't) and work on his passing skills(that he can do)...that's exactly what we just traded away. 
What's more, the player we traded FOR, Dame averaged .371% from 3(on 10.7 per game) vs Jrue who shot 39.5% on 5.3.

Now...the good news, Jrue the 3 years prior to playing for the Bucks shot .338% from 3. So if he went from roughly 34% to 40%, I think Dame can go from 37% to 43%. I don't think that's hard to imagine at all. 

More importantly, Dame is dangerous off the dribble and he is going to be like Moses and part the seas for Middleton. Defenses will have to focus SO much energy on Giannis and Dame, Middleton can almost be a Kyle Korver type player for the most part with stretches where he's going to take over.

 

We should have realistic expectations. Dame won't be a good defender. Hopefully at time he can be a competent one or disrupt passing lanes, but he's not going to be a good one. He's not a traditional lead guard. He's looking to score. That's the trade off we made. Less perimeter defense for an elite scoring option. 

This is why Beauchamp and Jackson are so important. One was a pretty decent defender as a rookie and the other I think will come in and be a contributor right out of the gate in Jackson.

 

I know Cheeze said he doesn't think Marjon or Jackson will start. I don't think Jackson will(though I think he could, he fits with the offense)...but I think it makes the most sense to have Beauchamp start. Particularly if he's made the improvements Giannis and company have said he specifically has made.

His defense, energy and off-ball movement, constant cutting, he's a good fit with the starters IMO.

But Pat also just fits every situation. 

 

[rickh150]

3 hours ago, BrewerFan said:

Well, it's pre-season. It's really just meant to get their legs back, get some cohesion as a team.

But the thing you're looking for? 20, DEFEND(he can't) and work on his passing skills(that he can do)...that's exactly what we just traded away. 
What's more, the player we traded FOR, Dame averaged .371% from 3(on 10.7 per game) vs Jrue who shot 39.5% on 5.3.

Now...the good news, Jrue the 3 years prior to playing for the Bucks shot .338% from 3. So if he went from roughly 34% to 40%, I think Dame can go from 37% to 43%. I don't think that's hard to imagine at all. 

More importantly, Dame is dangerous off the dribble and he is going to be like Moses and part the seas for Middleton. Defenses will have to focus SO much energy on Giannis and Dame, Middleton can almost be a Kyle Korver type player for the most part with stretches where he's going to take over.

 

We should have realistic expectations. Dame won't be a good defender. Hopefully at time he can be a competent one or disrupt passing lanes, but he's not going to be a good one. He's not a traditional lead guard. He's looking to score. That's the trade off we made. Less perimeter defense for an elite scoring option. 

This is why Beauchamp and Jackson are so important. One was a pretty decent defender as a rookie and the other I think will come in and be a contributor right out of the gate in Jackson.

 

I know Cheeze said he doesn't think Marjon or Jackson will start. I don't think Jackson will(though I think he could, he fits with the offense)...but I think it makes the most sense to have Beauchamp start. Particularly if he's made the improvements Giannis and company have said he specifically has made.

His defense, energy and off-ball movement, constant cutting, he's a good fit with the starters IMO.

But Pat also just fits every situation. 

 

On Bad team, scoring 30 is not equal to scoring 30 On Good team. 

He was forced to score and often threw up bad shots because it was the best option at end of shot clock. He was the offense in Portland.

Dame better get used to being a facilitator to a better player and a better shooter on his own team. That would be good offense. Chucking extra long 3’s on the break? Say goodbye to that part of your game and get your unselfish on to avg 10 assists a game. Let the game come to you. Hit the open three in flow of game and take control at end of shot clock.

[homer]

 

 

[Fear The Chorizo]

7 hours ago, rickh150 said:

Not a fan of Dame's game....the Bucks offense had a certain flow to it.  When Dame gets the ball, it's pause...step fake....pause.....fade away contested shot.  I can see just from preseason that this is going to rub some the wrong way.  It ticked me off immediately and I'm not playing. If it's end of shot clock, ok....but we don't need him scoring 30.  He needs to score 20, DEFEND, and work on his passing skills.....even if, for horror, it doesn't result in an assist.

I'd also say the Bucks offense in the regular season has a good flow to it because they could get out in transition at will when half the regular season games are viewed little more than pickup basketball by most teams.  Come playoff time when transition basketball is much harder to come by, that Bucks offense has desperately needed a scoring guard who can get his own shot or force teams to defend more than 2 players in a half court set.  Dame and Giannis running a pick and roll with Middleton setting up camp on a corner is pretty much an unguardable set they can go to whenever they'd need it.

[nate82]

2 hours ago, rickh150 said:

Dame better get used to being a facilitator to a better player and a better shooter on his own team.

LOL NO. Dame is a really good player on this team and any other team in the NBA.  There are not many better than him.  Giannis is a poor shooter so I am assuming you mean Middleton.

Look I love Middleton but he is option 3 behind Giannis and Dame.  Whoever the other team is focusing on defensively between Dame and Giannis are going to be the #1 and #2 option.  Middleton will always be #3 behind Dame and Giannis.

There was a play in the first quarter where Crowder I believe it was missed a wide open side or corner 3 that is basically going to be Middleton in the regular season.  He will be that wing option.  Now late and close it will go Middleton option one or two and Dame one or two.  Giannis will move to option 3.  Giannis is such a poor shooter he can’t be relied on late and close.  This was a problem in the playoffs last year among other issues.  Middleton was getting doubled and denied the ball with Giannis basically being kept out of the paint.  The only time Giannis should be option one late and close is when he is under the basket.  This is assuming his FT shooting continues to improve.

Having Dame being a passer only or that being his main role is just dumb.  He is a far better shooter to be put in that role.  Also you will want Dame shooting the deep threes it will cause the defense to play closer to the three point line.  This will allow Giannis to get closer to the paint where he is a far better option.  It also gives the Bucks more options on screens and pick and rolls.  There were a few plays where the Lakers were guarding against the deep three and Giannis was able to get some easy looks at the basket.

You are taking this away if you limit Dame from shooting the deep three.  You just made it easier to guard Giannis if you do this congratulations on doing that.

[BrewerFan]

3 hours ago, rickh150 said:

On Bad team, scoring 30 is not equal to scoring 30 On Good team. 

He was forced to score and often threw up bad shots because it was the best option at end of shot clock. He was the offense in Portland.

Dame better get used to being a facilitator to a better player and a better shooter on his own team. That would be good offense. Chucking extra long 3’s on the break? Say goodbye to that part of your game and get your unselfish on to avg 10 assists a game. Let the game come to you. Hit the open three in flow of game and take control at end of shot clock.

Well...first of all, I said nothing about him scoring 30 either way. I said if you wanted a guy to score 20 PPG, DEFEND and facilitate, you had that in Jrue. You got Dame because he's one of the best shooters ever. And sure, it's not the same on a bad team. He's also done it on a good team. He had a .564 Efg% last year. Giannis was .572 Efg%. So despite everyone knowing who was going to take the shot. That was the point behind Jrue's shooting % the 3 years with Giannis vs without him. 

And no, absolutely do NOT get rid of those long 3's. That is a HUGE part of the reason we got him. 35% from 35 feet last year(significantly better than Steph). That forces the defense to come ALL the way out and guard him past the line and...is literally one of the main things that makes him so effective.

The whole point of Dame and Giannis is they're the best(*or close to) at each ends  of the offensive spectrum and they compliment each other so well. 

I can't imagine why you'd trade for a top 75 all time player(still playing at his prime...though toward the end of it) and then ask him to do exactly what the last guy we had did. And if he could do the things Jrue did on top of his offensive game then he'd be...hell, I can't think of who he'd be. I don't think there's ever been a player who could shooter like Dame and defend like Jrue.

[BrewerFan]

1 hour ago, nate82 said:

LOL NO. Dame is a really good player on this team and any other team in the NBA.  There are not many better than him.  Giannis is a poor shooter so I am assuming you mean Middleton.

Look I love Middleton but he is option 3 behind Giannis and Dame.  Whoever the other team is focusing on defensively between Dame and Giannis are going to be the #1 and #2 option.  Middleton will always be #3 behind Dame and Giannis.

There was a play in the first quarter where Crowder I believe it was missed a wide open side or corner 3 that is basically going to be Middleton in the regular season.  He will be that wing option.  Now late and close it will go Middleton option one or two and Dame one or two.  Giannis will move to option 3.  Giannis is such a poor shooter he can’t be relied on late and close.  This was a problem in the playoffs last year among other issues.  Middleton was getting doubled and denied the ball with Giannis basically being kept out of the paint.  The only time Giannis should be option one late and close is when he is under the basket.  This is assuming his FT shooting continues to improve.

Having Dame being a passer only or that being his main role is just dumb.  He is a far better shooter to be put in that role.  Also you will want Dame shooting the deep threes it will cause the defense to play closer to the three point line.  This will allow Giannis to get closer to the paint where he is a far better option.  It also gives the Bucks more options on screens and pick and rolls.  There were a few plays where the Lakers were guarding against the deep three and Giannis was able to get some easy looks at the basket.

Exactly. Ideally, you'll just play with good ball movement. Lopez at the FT line, some ball movement, or one of the three penetrating and kicking it out. But this isn't gonna be John Stockton and Malone(it may be in the efficiency in which they score or work the Pick and Roll, but that's about it). 

 

2 hours ago, Fear The Chorizo said:

Dame and Giannis running a pick and roll with Middleton setting up camp on a corner is pretty much an unguardable set they can go to whenever they'd need it.

Yeah, and you still haven't accounted for Brook or...Connaughton or whoever else is on the floor. If we're not the #1 offense in the league by a...fairly large margin, it's a problem.

Now what happens come playoff time, if that offense is enough to overcome the drop off in defense, we'll see. But the idea you turn Dame into a version of Jrue is like trading in your F150, getting a Bugatti Chiron and then trying to use that to pull your point or...whatever.

It kinda makes it pointless. They'll mesh just fine.

 

[GAME05]

Bucks offense last year was 28th after a TO, and their half-court offense looked more like four guys passing it to Giannis and getting a breather. Plus the team was 21st in free throw attempts. And an interesting statistic I saw is that the Bucks were 5th worst in the League at driving the lane. Lillard pretty significantly improves all the things the Bucks were bad at last year.

 

 

 

[owbc]

This team will sleepwalk to 50 wins. They don't need to care about defense until next April. Until then they can get used to playing together with the new coach and having fun. Giannis and Dame are going to have a LOT of fun together. 

[Team Canada]

2 hours ago, owbc said:

Giannis and Dame are going to have a LOT of fun together. 

That's certainly what it sounds like:

"First couple plays, they blitz me, they trap me and the guy that I'm releasing the ball to is Giannis. So I'm just like, 'Uh, we can do this all night.' You know what I mean?"

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/38670039/damian-lillard-giannis-antetokounmpo-bucks-pairing-impressive-start

[rickh150]

Boy, lots of reaction to not having Dame chuck 35 footers and pass the ball a little more. I’d better not suggest that he clean up his perimeter defensive footwork. 

[nate82]

2 hours ago, rickh150 said:

Boy, lots of reaction to not having Dame chuck 35 footers and pass the ball a little more. I’d better not suggest that he clean up his perimeter defensive footwork. 

Dame passes the ball enough.  The Bucks actually wanted him to shoot more in the game on Sunday.  If you can't understand why those 35 footers are a good idea then there really isn't any point in discussing this. 

Also he has been a poor perimeter defender.  If he hasn't improved by now expecting him to be better is a fools errand. 

[nate82]

To be more clear Dame had a 35 AST% last year which ranked 10th in the NBA and he was also averaging 9.8 assists per 100 possessions which was good for 17th in the league.  So a top 10 player and a top 20 player in passing needs to pass more?

[rickh150]

17 minutes ago, nate82 said:

To be more clear Dame had a 35 AST% last year which ranked 10th in the NBA and he was also averaging 9.8 assists per 100 possessions which was good for 17th in the league.  So a top 10 player and a top 20 player in passing needs to pass more?

Yes.  Create more for others. Yes. He has a loaded team, unlike forever for him.

[rickh150]

26 minutes ago, nate82 said:

Dame passes the ball enough.  The Bucks actually wanted him to shoot more in the game on Sunday.  If you can't understand why those 35 footers are a good idea then there really isn't any point in discussing this. 

Also he has been a poor perimeter defender.  If he hasn't improved by now expecting him to be better is a fools errand. 

If you believe 35 footers are good use of a shot in basketball, other than end of shot clock scenario, then I don’t have much to add. Rarely do I see a need to chuck it, regardless of star shooter status….sure looks cool when it goes in, though. 

Oh and I expect him to improve defensively… or at least they scheme a way to where he is not a glaring undersized weakness. Guard a spot shooter, make him double down,  or pick/rolls they double Dame’s man. Something.

[nate82]

16 minutes ago, rickh150 said:

Yes.  Create more for others. Yes. He has a loaded team, unlike forever for him.

If he just does exactly what he has been doing his whole career he wouldn't need to do any type of increase.  He wouldn't even need to pass more if anything he should be passing less. 

 

Just now, rickh150 said:

f you believe 35 footers are good use of a shot in basketball, other than end of shot clock scenario, then I don’t have much to add. Rarely do I see a need to chuck it, regardless of star shooter status….sure looks cool when it goes in, though. 

I have already and others have stated why this is a good shot.  Let me repeat why this is a good shot.  It creates more opportunities for Giannis, Middleton and Lopez.  It makes the defense actually come up from the paint and guard Dame.  It means you can't sag off defensively from Dame and create that Giannis wall of defenders.  This shot helps create more spacing to allow for others to score.  The reason why Curry creates so much offense is because teams have to guard him from half court to the perimeter.  Players like Dame and Curry create more offense because the defense has to protect further out.  It creates more favorable match ups for your other players who don't have the range. 

Making the defenders come out of the paint and having to guard Dame at the perimeter is what you want to happen as it makes it easier for Giannis to get to the paint where he is more effective.  You have to keep the option open and allow Dame to shoot those shots.  You don't have to score every time on those shots you just need to make the defense respect those shots.  Those deep threes are what will make Giannis better and will generate far more offense for Giannis than not shooting those shots will. 

[BrewerFan]

10 hours ago, rickh150 said:

Boy, lots of reaction to not having Dame chuck 35 footers and pass the ball a little more. I’d better not suggest that he clean up his perimeter defensive footwork. 

That is wildly mischaracterizing your comments about Dame. You literally started out with "Not a fan of Dame's game," and then...again, just to reiterate, you described Jrue Holiday almost to a T with what you want Dame to become. 

On 10/16/2023 at 2:53 PM, rickh150 said:

Not a fan of Dame's game....the Bucks offense had a certain flow to it.  When Dame gets the ball, it's pause...step fake....pause.....fade away contested shot.  I can see just from preseason that this is going to rub some the wrong way.  It ticked me off immediately and I'm not playing. If it's end of shot clock, ok....but we don't need him scoring 30.  He needs to score 20, DEFEND, and work on his passing skills.....even if, for horror, it doesn't result in an assist.

 

On 10/16/2023 at 8:55 PM, rickh150 said:

On Bad team, scoring 30 is not equal to scoring 30 On Good team. 

Again, not argued...BUT scoring 32 PPG as an efficient scorer is impressive.

On 10/16/2023 at 8:55 PM, rickh150 said:

He was forced to score and often threw up bad shots because it was the best option at end of shot clock. He was the offense in Portland.

Yes. Making it all the most impressive he went for 32/7.5 last year with so little talent around him.

On 10/16/2023 at 8:55 PM, rickh150 said:

Dame better get used to being a facilitator to a better player and a better shooter on his own team. That would be good offense. Chucking extra long 3’s on the break? Say goodbye to that part of your game

https://theathletic.com/4908015/2023/09/28/damian-lillard-bucks-offense-changes-expectations-analysis/

 

7 hours ago, rickh150 said:

Yes.  Create more for others. Yes. He has a loaded team, unlike forever for him.

Yes, but your inference that he doesn't create for ever...should be disproven that much more given he was still among the best in the league in that regard(top 20) and he played for a team with so few offensive threats.

 

7 hours ago, rickh150 said:

If you believe 35 footers are good use of a shot in basketball, other than end of shot clock scenario, then I don’t have much to add. Rarely do I see a need to chuck it, regardless of star shooter status….sure looks cool when it goes in, though. 

It's much more than that. Read the Athletic's article. It may be enlightening. 

Even just a 30 foot 3 is...huge to be able to take. If you can hit shots 7 feet behind the line, you're putting ridiculous strain on the defense and that's before you even bring Giannis, Middleton...Brook AND then Pat, Beasley, Marjon, Crowder...whoever. That's 3 guys who've  been really good shooters and a 4th who's got a nice looking shot and is a slasher and this is opening up lanes like the 90s Cowboys for him. 

7 hours ago, rickh150 said:

 

Oh and I expect him to improve defensively… or at least they scheme a way to where he is not a glaring undersized weakness. Guard a spot shooter, make him double down,  or pick/rolls they double Dame’s man. Something.

 

Yes...I'm sure that'll be something they work on. ADDING some facets to his game or better team defense is an ENTIRELY different thing than saying, "that thing that's made Dame one of the greatest players of all time? No more of that, we want him to turn into John Stockton."

[BrewerFan]

8 hours ago, nate82 said:

Also he has been a poor perimeter defender.  If he hasn't improved by now expecting him to be better is a fools errand. 

He's not gonna be Jrue, but he is pretty good at playing the passing lanes and he's got quick hands. He's gonna get bullied and he's not capable of defending a Luka or whoever, but I think he'll play better when we need him to.

Sorta like how Durant could play D for stretches(not that good) or how Harden...SOMEHOW turned it on again, for stretches in the playoffs. 

 

The one thing I don't think is a great idea...particularly in the pre-season, having Dame set picks for Giannis.  I get you want to give that look and maybe go to it in games on occasion, but he doesn't need to be out there taking on the Aaron Gordon's running through the picks or Grant Williams(whoever's guarding Giannis). 

We've seen that...lets put that away for...May, June...I'd like to see the big4 getting through the season missing fewer than 82 games combined. Feels like a good measure. 

[sveumrules]

Terry Stotts has resigned from his role on the Bucks coaching staff.

Haven’t seen an official reason given, but has to be either health/family related, didn’t want to re-commit to the daily grind at age 65 after two years off, or some kind of butting of heads with coach Griff slash maybe lingering bad blood with Dame from their Portland days?

Whatever the cause, it leaves a pretty big hole in the coaching staff on the precipice of the regular season.

Guessing Prunty just gets promoted to lead assistant? Also saw D’Antoni currently has an advisor role with the Pelicans, maybe a lead assistant gig with a Championship contender could entice him away?

[Joseph Zarr]

1 hour ago, sveumrules said:

Terry Stotts has resigned from his role on the Bucks coaching staff.

Haven’t seen an official reason given, but has to be either health/family related, didn’t want to re-commit to the daily grind at age 65 after two years off, or some kind of butting of heads with coach Griff slash maybe lingering bad blood with Dame from their Portland days?

Whatever the cause, it leaves a pretty big hole in the coaching staff on the precipice of the regular season.

Guessing Prunty just gets promoted to lead assistant? Also saw D’Antoni currently has an advisor role with the Pelicans, maybe a lead assistant gig with a Championship contender could entice him away?

Yeah, this is fairly shocking - the timing and the suddenness. Not an ideal scenario a week before the regular season starts! Ugh.