Cubs May Meltdown - Beautiful to Witness

[edfunderburk]

 

What’s going on with the Cubs?

When you look over the rosters of every team in the NL Central, it’s difficult not to come away with the impression that the most well-rounded roster belongs to the Cubs.

They’ve got the best rotation, a terrific defense and a lineup with an intriguing mix of veterans and up-and-comers. Seven of their nine regular position players and three of their starting pitchers are under 30 (and one of the ones who isn’t, Imanaga, is a rookie). They also have the new manager, Craig Counsell, who is widely considered one of the best in the sport.

It’s not a perfect roster -- and the Cubs don’t really rank up there with the Phillies, Braves or Dodgers -- but in the NL Central? They look like the class of the division.

So what happened? The Cubs were in first place in the NL Central on May 8, then they won two out of three from the Pirates. Everything was in great shape. And then the bottom fell out.

They lost two out of three in Atlanta, three out of four at home to Pittsburgh and two out of three at home to the Braves. They were swept out of St. Louis in two games, and then during a miserable series in Milwaukee, where the team lost three out of four, Counsell was booed incessantly until the team left town in third place and one game under .500.

Since May 13, only the Mets and White Sox have been worse than the Cubs. The Cardinals have even passed them!

Some of this has been bad luck. In the past two weeks, the Cubs have lost four games in which their starting pitcher didn’t give up a run. But their stars are struggling.

Dansby Swanson is 1-for-his-last-19. Seiya Suzuki is not having the breakout year many were predicting. Neither is Christopher Morel and neither is Justin Steele. The bullpen has been inconsistent and injured.

The Cubs are also going through a tough stretch in the schedule -- they’ve had a ton of games against the Braves, Brewers and Paul Skenes (two of Skenes’ four starts have been against the Cubs). And they caught the Cardinals at just the wrong time.

But still: This is a sub-.500 team right now. The Cubs were supposed to be taking a leap this year. So far, they’re not.

 

 

[TURBO]

SUCK IT CC!

[Fear The Chorizo]

My 1st thought on what's going on with Steele is that he's still rounding into form after the game 1  hammy injury....but then also realizing he's coming off a season where he exceeded his previous IP total by more than 54 innings and there may be quite a bit more to it.

It's easy to forget that despite all the offseason helium pushing the Cub projections towards the top of the division, particularly after CC took the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$, there weren't a large number of roster improvements from a team that won just 83 games in 2023.  Imanaga is basically it, and he replaced Stroman from last season's rotation.

[yfinn6]

1 hour ago, Fear The Chorizo said:

My 1st thought on what's going on with Steele is that he's still rounding into form after the game 1  hammy injury....but then also realizing he's coming off a season where he exceeded his previous IP total by more than 54 innings and there may be quite a bit more to it.

It's easy to forget that despite all the offseason helium pushing the Cub projections towards the top of the division, particularly after CC took the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$, there weren't a large number of roster improvements from a team that won just 83 games in 2023.  Imanaga is basically it, and he replaced Stroman from last season's rotation.

Steele also looks out of shape. 

[StearnsFTW]

Most well-rounded roster my @ss.

 

Their offense stinks.  And their bullpen isn't particularly good either.

 

[ClosetBrewerFan]

They should have opened up their wallet this offseason to get a good manager.

[Thurston Fluff]

It would be funny if the Cubs ended up worse this season and Pat Murphy wins manager of the year award.

[Gump]

8 hours ago, Thurston Fluff said:

It would be funny if the Cubs ended up worse this season and Pat Murphy wins manager of the year award.

Wouldn’t that be something! Haha

[bigred]

17 hours ago, Thurston Fluff said:

It would be funny if the Cubs ended up worse this season and Pat Murphy wins manager of the year award.

Exactly. Most fans are still dwelling on their "hatred" of Counsell, instead of acknowledging how great Murphy has been. 

[Brian]

1 hour ago, bigred said:

Exactly. Most fans are still dwelling on their "hatred" of Counsell, instead of acknowledging how great Murphy has been. 

But it can be both because Murphy has been absolutely great so far and Counsell's move to me was not straight forward at all. 

[Brian]

7 minutes ago, Brian said:

But it can be both because Murphy has been absolutely great so far and Counsell's move to me was not straight forward at all. 

Also to be quite honest I absolutely hated the way Counsell handled the bullpen late in games and Craig had a lot more talent to work with than Murphy does right now. Murphy is just better baseball minded than Counsell is. 

[Thurston Fluff]

1 hour ago, Brian said:

Also to be quite honest I absolutely hated the way Counsell handled the bullpen late in games and Craig had a lot more talent to work with than Murphy does right now. Murphy is just better baseball minded than Counsell is. 

I think the jury is still out on Murphy. I'm not sure I agree with how he's used Contreras for example. If he wears down in the second half it's on Murphy for how he used him the first half. I need to see how the whole season pans out before I'll put him in elite manager territory. Not the he can't be, just that it takes a whole season to be.

It would be ironic if Counsell ended up hurting managers pay in the long run. If he turns an average team into an average team while his former team doesn't miss a beat it'd be hard to argue managers are worth much money. For Counsell to raise the bar for managers pay he not only needed to take the best offer but also produce. He can't prove managers make a significant difference by making no difference at all.

[Pugger]

3 hours ago, bigred said:

Exactly. Most fans are still dwelling on their "hatred" of Counsell, instead of acknowledging how great Murphy has been. 

You have to wonder if the players respond to Murphy better than they did to CC and this could be an issue in Chicago?

[edfunderburk]

3 hours ago, bigred said:

Exactly. Most fans are still dwelling on their "hatred" of Counsell, instead of acknowledging how great Murphy has been. 

I certainly don’t hate Counsell … I dislike immensely HOW he transitioned away & WHERE he landed. 

I want the Cubs to lose - so that includes Counsell. 

[edfunderburk]

57 minutes ago, Thurston Fluff said:

I think the jury is still out on Murphy

I 100% agree … I love his personality, his nicknames for his players, his “win today” mantra … but I’m not sold on his lineups or in game decision-making

[Brian]

3 hours ago, Thurston Fluff said:

I think the jury is still out on Murphy. I'm not sure I agree with how he's used Contreras for example. If he wears down in the second half it's on Murphy for how he used him the first half. I need to see how the whole season pans out before I'll put him in elite manager territory. Not the he can't be, just that it takes a whole season to be.

It would be ironic if Counsell ended up hurting managers pay in the long run. If he turns an average team into an average team while his former team doesn't miss a beat it'd be hard to argue managers are worth much money. For Counsell to raise the bar for managers pay he not only needed to take the best offer but also produce. He can't prove managers make a significant difference by making no difference at all.

Contreras Idolized Molina and he looks to play like him so until Contreras looks like he is worn out I would let him play even though Sanchez caught 11 games this season already. 

[bigred]

100% agree about Contreras. The past few games, it seemed like he may be getting little burned out already. 

[bigred]

19 hours ago, edfunderburk said:

I certainly don’t hate Counsell … I dislike immensely HOW he transitioned away & WHERE he landed. 

I want the Cubs to lose - so that includes Counsell. 

I hear ya. I'm really liking how Murphy has been so far. 

[MrTPlush]

19 hours ago, Pugger said:

You have to wonder if the players respond to Murphy better than they did to CC and this could be an issue in Chicago?

Counsell leaves and it is about how special he is and the great loss. Brewers do fine without him and now we have to theorize all the reasons Counsell may have actually sucked. To think the players didn't respond well to him is a pretty big stretch. The players loved Counsell and many were pretty openly upset about him leaving. 

I think at some point, reality sets back in, and we realize managers are actually nearly worthless. This is the exact scenario I pondered happening and Counsell's "doing this for manager's" thing could actually backfire. If anything, he is proving they are worthless and paying them is pointless. Instead of increasing manager salaries in the long run, he is likely helping confirm they should be suppressed.

No offense to Murphy, but Brewers fans were mad enough we went with him. If he had been an outside hire, the fanbase would have rioted hiring some random old bum with little to no managing experience. So, if he can apparently be good, why would you ever go out and pay a bunch of money for a manager?

[homer]

I don't think anything is "proven" until the season is over. 

[Thurston Fluff]

3 hours ago, MrTPlush said:

Counsell leaves and it is about how special he is and the great loss. Brewers do fine without him and now we have to theorize all the reasons Counsell may have actually sucked. To think the players didn't respond well to him is a pretty big stretch. The players loved Counsell and many were pretty openly upset about him leaving. 

I think at some point, reality sets back in, and we realize managers are actually nearly worthless. This is the exact scenario I pondered happening and Counsell's "doing this for manager's" thing could actually backfire. If anything, he is proving they are worthless and paying them is pointless. Instead of increasing manager salaries in the long run, he is likely helping confirm they should be suppressed.

No offense to Murphy, but Brewers fans were mad enough we went with him. If he had been an outside hire, the fanbase would have rioted hiring some random old bum with little to no managing experience. So, if he can apparently be good, why would you ever go out and pay a bunch of money for a manager?

I don't think managers are worthless. We've all seen managers who tanked a team with bad decisions or abusing pitchers. I think it's more their value has a ceiling. Once they hit a certain level of competency they're pretty much interchangeable.

[Frisbee Slider]

Since May 13, only the Mets and the White Sox have a worse record than the Cubs

link

 

[MadScientist]

Sure, it's nice to see the Cubs fade, especially after they stole CC from us.  It's a long season and I still think CC is good at squeezing wins out of a roster, but managers are more or less bystanders when players are in a slump.    The thing that really annoys me is the St. Louis Cockroaches are in second.  (I call them the Cockroaches because they are near impossible to get rid of).

[Underachiever]

34 minutes ago, MadScientist said:

 The thing that really annoys me is the St. Louis Cockroaches are in second.  (I call them the Cockroaches because they are near impossible to get rid of).

I get what you are saying about STL (and I have the same ptsd regarding them), and this isn't directed at you specifically, but it's mathematically impossible to have clinched a division after 60 games. The Brewers have a 7-game lead. How much better could we expect it to be? Playing at a 97-win pace currently. Of course the Cardinals haven't gone away. But they and the Cubs are at .500. St. Louis has been over .500 for exactly TWO days since the beginning of the 2023 season (5-4 after 9 games this year, and 2-1 last year).

Can the Brewers play .500 the rest of the year? Cards and Cubs would have to win at a .600 clip to catch them. If the Brewers can get to 90 (my prediction back in March), those two teams have to play 20 games over .500 to catch them.

Of course it could all fall apart, but if it does, it will be more about the Brewers coming back to the pack than it will about the Cubs and Cardinals. And if the Brewers win 90 and get caught, well, most of the fans on this site predicted them to have 75-80 wins so they really have no room to complain.

[MadScientist]

4 hours ago, Underachiever said:

I get what you are saying about STL (and I have the same ptsd regarding them), and this isn't directed at you specifically, but it's mathematically impossible to have clinched a division after 60 games. The Brewers have a 7-game lead. How much better could we expect it to be? Playing at a 97-win pace currently. Of course the Cardinals haven't gone away. But they and the Cubs are at .500. St. Louis has been over .500 for exactly TWO days since the beginning of the 2023 season (5-4 after 9 games this year, and 2-1 last year).

Can the Brewers play .500 the rest of the year? Cards and Cubs would have to win at a .600 clip to catch them. If the Brewers can get to 90 (my prediction back in March), those two teams have to play 20 games over .500 to catch them.

Of course it could all fall apart, but if it does, it will be more about the Brewers coming back to the pack than it will about the Cubs and Cardinals. And if the Brewers win 90 and get caught, well, most of the fans on this site predicted them to have 75-80 wins so they really have no room to complain.

I was just noting the general annoyance of the Cockroaches to always come back late in the season.  Every time you think they are dead and dusted, they go on a 12-2 run and are right back in it.   

If the Brewers have >90 wins and take the division, Murphy should get Manager of the Year.  The number of injuries to the staff, particularly the starters is ridiculous.