Cubs May Meltdown - Beautiful to Witness

[mtsportsfan]

On 6/2/2024 at 11:40 AM, Pugger said:

You have to wonder if the players respond to Murphy better than they did to CC and this could be an issue in Chicago?

Maybe its possible that the players are using CC's going to the cubs and saying he thinks he will have better chance of winning as motivation and prove him wrong!

[tmwiese55]

One thing I noticed with our games vs them and others that have been on TV lately is the talk about Swanson.  Things like 'get him outta here before he gets hot',  "this won't last long" and just in general this talk like he's some kind of great hitter.   Of course, what he's doing this year is worse than expected and some bounce back should come.  But the guys essentially been a mediocre hitter his whole career, but they talk about like this is prime Braun all of a sudden OPSing .650.  He's a .750ish type guy but due to his name and them giving a terrible contract its talked about like he's some masher. 

[MrTPlush]

2 hours ago, tmwiese55 said:

One thing I noticed with our games vs them and others that have been on TV lately is the talk about Swanson.  Things like 'get him outta here before he gets hot',  "this won't last long" and just in general this talk like he's some kind of great hitter.   Of course, what he's doing this year is worse than expected and some bounce back should come.  But the guys essentially been a mediocre hitter his whole career, but they talk about like this is prime Braun all of a sudden OPSing .650.  He's a .750ish type guy but due to his name and them giving a terrible contract its talked about like he's some masher. 

Swanson is why I have zero interest in resigning Adames...and never have been. Basically, the same type of player. Pretty high-level defense paired an exciting at times offense. 

Dumb enough giving a superstar a massive contract well into his 30s...let alone guys like Swanson.

 

[OldSchoolSnapper]

Counsell's entire "raising the bar" schtick was hilarious and stupid to begin with. There was a rare opportunity to cash out big time and he got it. Not many ballplayers can continue being paid like one into their 50s. That's what this was about. He doesn't give a mouse fart about getting some other manager a raise. 

[tmwiese55]

2 minutes ago, OldSchoolSnapper said:

Counsell's entire "raising the bar" schtick was hilarious and stupid to begin with. There was a rare opportunity to cash out big time and he got it. Not many ballplayers can continue being paid like one into their 50s. That's what this was about. He doesn't give a mouse fart about getting some other manager a raise. 

I think he's gonna love 2027-2028 when he's chilling with his family getting paid 8 mil to do nothing. 

[KeithStone53151]

On 6/2/2024 at 9:29 AM, Brian said:

Also to be quite honest I absolutely hated the way Counsell handled the bullpen late in games and Craig had a lot more talent to work with than Murphy does right now. Murphy is just better baseball minded than Counsell is. 

I take issue with this. I disliked Counsell more than most. He seemed to me like an above average regular season manager and a poor postseason manager. His greatest strength, in my opinion, was bullpen usage. Not specific day to day, but managing them with proper rest so they'd last the whole season. He is the anti-Joe Maddon. You can certainly nitpick certain day to day bullpen decisions, but I almost always gave him the benefit of the doubt on them because I knew his priority was clearly longevity and you can't always throw out your top guys if you want them to last the entire season.

Now, continue your regularly scheduled program on boo-ing Counsell and laughing at his current failures...

[Brian]

17 minutes ago, KeithStone53151 said:

I take issue with this. I disliked Counsell more than most. He seemed to me like an above average regular season manager and a poor postseason manager. His greatest strength, in my opinion, was bullpen usage. Not specific day to day, but managing them with proper rest so they'd last the whole season. He is the anti-Joe Maddon. You can certainly nitpick certain day to day bullpen decisions, but I almost always gave him the benefit of the doubt on them because I knew his priority was clearly longevity and you can't always throw out your top guys if you want them to last the entire season.

Now, continue your regularly scheduled program on boo-ing Counsell and laughing at his current failures...

I think I formed my opinion of Counsell when he called on Andrew Chafin game after game after game in one stretch when men were on base and the Brewers were either winning or tied and then we lost.  It got to the point when Chafin came in I turned off the TV.  What was even worse all the runs that Chafin let score were all added to the previous pitchers ERA. 

[sveumrules]

29 minutes ago, Brian said:

I think I formed my opinion of Counsell when he called on Andrew Chafin game after game after game in one stretch when men were on base and the Brewers were either winning or tied and then we lost.  It got to the point when Chafin came in I turned off the TV.  What was even worse all the runs that Chafin let score were all added to the previous pitchers ERA. 

So you hated the way Counsell handled the bullpen because of the way he used one guy over two months during a season we ran away with the division largely because of the bullpen’s historic performance?

What about how he used the other 134 relievers over his seven year tenure where the Brewers bullpen put up an MLB best +41.55 Win Probability Added?

[Brian]

3 minutes ago, sveumrules said:

So you hated the way Counsell handled the bullpen because of the way he used one guy over two months during a season we ran away with the division largely because of the bullpen’s historic performance?

What about how he used the other 134 relievers over his seven year tenure where the Brewers bullpen put up an MLB best +41.55 Win Probability Added?

He did the same thing with Josh Hader then we shut him down and traded him to SD. 

[tmwiese55]

Well it sure would've been nice if they didn't get these comebacks from the White Sox.  Hard to believe CWS can be that bad.

But yea to the CC stuff, I know I joked about how he won't make it all 5 years, which I don't think he will.  I still think he's a good manager and he was good for us.  Its just the cubs, Chicago media/fans, their situation, etc where I think he's put himself in a tough spot with high expectations and that teams is very unlikely to live up to them.  Fast forward 3 years of being mediocre like their roster should be (barring ridiculous FA moves) and I think he'll get pushed out

[Brian]

4 minutes ago, tmwiese55 said:

Well it sure would've been nice if they didn't get these comebacks from the White Sox.  Hard to believe CWS can be that bad.

But yea to the CC stuff, I know I joked about how he won't make it all 5 years, which I don't think he will.  I still think he's a good manager and he was good for us.  Its just the cubs, Chicago, their situation, etc where I think he's put himself in a tough spot with high expectations and that teams is very unlikely to live up to them.  Fast forward 3 years of being mediocre like their roster should be (barring ridiculous FA moves) and I think he'll get pushed out

The Cubs' bullpen ERA is 4.74, ranking 24th in the majors. They have eight blown saves, trailing only the pitiful White Sox.

[rickh150]

Hader hijacked CC’s way of using relievers. He “couldn’t” use Hader the way he wanted (more than one inning outings…not always the 9th when Knebel and Jeffress were around).  CC chose not to make an issue of dealing with Hader and his agent, and the bullpen was less match up based,   Hader coulda shoulda came in to finish the 8th when leading a few times, as well.

I think what CC did for the Brewers was still fantastic. I will give him an A- for two division titles, several playoff appearances, and a NLCS Game 7…so close to a WS.  The big impress is doing it on a payroll ranked around/between 17-24 of the 30 teams yearly.

[Pugger]

On 6/3/2024 at 8:22 AM, MrTPlush said:

Counsell leaves and it is about how special he is and the great loss. Brewers do fine without him and now we have to theorize all the reasons Counsell may have actually sucked. To think the players didn't respond well to him is a pretty big stretch. The players loved Counsell and many were pretty openly upset about him leaving. 

I think at some point, reality sets back in, and we realize managers are actually nearly worthless. This is the exact scenario I pondered happening and Counsell's "doing this for manager's" thing could actually backfire. If anything, he is proving they are worthless and paying them is pointless. Instead of increasing manager salaries in the long run, he is likely helping confirm they should be suppressed.

No offense to Murphy, but Brewers fans were mad enough we went with him. If he had been an outside hire, the fanbase would have rioted hiring some random old bum with little to no managing experience. So, if he can apparently be good, why would you ever go out and pay a bunch of money for a manager?

I don't know if managers are worthless.  If memory serves the players were very happy that Murphy was retained.  Most teams are a reflection if their manager/HC.  Murphy might be one of those scrappy guys and our players play like that.  Perhaps CC is not assertive enough and the inmates run the asylum?  With that roster Chicago should be winning more than they are.

[Playing Catch]

22 minutes ago, Pugger said:

Perhaps CC is not assertive enough and the inmates run the asylum?

Yeah, I think clubhouse culture, and overall organization culture takes a long time to turn around. It seemed like Hoyer suggested as much when they hired CC. That he was brought in to change the entire organization, not just the game-day 26.

[Fear The Chorizo]

On 6/6/2024 at 3:42 PM, rickh150 said:

Hader hijacked CC’s way of using relievers. He “couldn’t” use Hader the way he wanted (more than one inning outings…not always the 9th when Knebel and Jeffress were around).  CC chose not to make an issue of dealing with Hader and his agent, and the bullpen was less match up based,   Hader coulda shoulda came in to finish the 8th when leading a few times, as well.

I think what CC did for the Brewers was still fantastic. I will give him an A- for two division titles, several playoff appearances, and a NLCS Game 7…so close to a WS.  The big impress is doing it on a payroll ranked around/between 17-24 of the 30 teams yearly.

When CC started getting accolades for bullpen management, he had a younger Hader to use for multi-inning appearances to often bridge innings 6-7, backed by a series of young starters with dominating stuff who were also multi-inning bullpen options (Burnes/Woodruff/Peralta), plus an AS-caliber closer in Knebel, and a pile of good situational lefties/righties - plus in September MLB rules still allowed for a ton of players to be active on gameday after September callups, and the Brewers rolled through that month utilizing the depth they had on the 40 man full of relievers.

It's not like CC was grinding through 8 relievers a game to get 10 outs like LaRussa would do on some of those Cardinal teams that found ways to win a WS....CC managed a bullpen well that also happened to be stacked with arm talent and depth.

[MrTPlush]

41 minutes ago, Pugger said:

I don't know if managers are worthless.  If memory serves the players were very happy that Murphy was retained.  Most teams are a reflection if their manager/HC.  Murphy might be one of those scrappy guys and our players play like that.  Perhaps CC is not assertive enough and the inmates run the asylum?  With that roster Chicago should be winning more than they are.

Let me put it a different way:

Managers are basically just replacement level at best.

There really isn’t anything unique and valuable to any one guy. You basically just need a guy to make a nice clubhouse environment and not be an idiot. I think many teams get caught up trying to find ‘that’ guy and make him be more than the figurehead they are.

[Samurai Bucky]

19 minutes ago, MrTPlush said:

Let me put it a different way:

Managers are basically just replacement level at best.

There really isn’t anything unique and valuable to any one guy. You basically just need a guy to make a nice clubhouse environment and not be an idiot. I think many teams get caught up trying to find ‘that’ guy and make him be more than the figurehead they are.

Do you think Pat Murphy changed anything related to game-day strategy and approach?  If managers are simply plug and play, then anybody on this board could hop in the dugout and be a manager.  @Brock Beauchamp is my first choice 😉

[Brock Beauchamp]

1 minute ago, Samurai Bucky said:

Do you think Pat Murphy changed anything related to game-day strategy and approach?  If managers are simply plug and play, then anybody on this board could hop in the dugout and be a manager.  @Brock Beauchamp is my first choice 😉

First order of business: everybody bunts all the time

[MrTPlush]

10 minutes ago, Samurai Bucky said:

Do you think Pat Murphy changed anything related to game-day strategy and approach?  If managers are simply plug and play, then anybody on this board could hop in the dugout and be a manager.  @Brock Beauchamp is my first choice 😉

I do think they are pretty plug and play, yeah. Counsell went from a player to a manager and was competent. Though a lot of his success is due to Pat Murphy. It seemed pretty obvious Counsell leaned heavily on Murphy during games because Murphy was a little more experienced in that aspect. Give someone good players and a competent coaching staff around them, won’t matter much who the manager is.

 

[Thurston Fluff]

1 hour ago, MrTPlush said:

Let me put it a different way:

Managers are basically just replacement level at best.

There really isn’t anything unique and valuable to any one guy. You basically just need a guy to make a nice clubhouse environment and not be an idiot. I think many teams get caught up trying to find ‘that’ guy and make him be more than the figurehead they are.

I think it's more like hitting a certain level of proficiency is necessary. After hitting that level the difference between them is negligible. Once a certain level is met the one that most exceeds that point has no more impact than the one who barely made it to said point.

[Samurai Bucky]

1 hour ago, MrTPlush said:

I do think they are pretty plug and play, yeah. Counsell went from a player to a manager and was competent. Though a lot of his success is due to Pat Murphy. It seemed pretty obvious Counsell leaned heavily on Murphy during games because Murphy was a little more experienced in that aspect. Give someone good players and a competent coaching staff around them, won’t matter much who the manager is.

 

I don't disagree with you.  A manager is, in essence, a delegator.  Like the captain of a ship, he needs to know how to delegate and trust his coaching staff.  That said, he still needs to define "true north" for the team -- how are they going to try to meet the goal (whatever that is).

It would be interesting to see how CC would have done this year with this team.  My feeling is that he would not be doing as well as Murphy because I don't think CC would adapt his managerial style to match his personnel.  Again, only speculation.

When listening to a recent Cubs sports radio broadcast via YouTube (can't find it), the blame was solely on the GM.

[tmwiese55]

Good posts.  Yea the majority of informed people like many of us here could do just fine on the game decision, batting orders, etc.  Strategies, long term planning, garnering respect, leadership skills, and most importantly people management of large egos (and large paychecks) are not things we all for sure could do. CC seemed good on all those things.   And as someone else said, once someone has that level of competency, respect, professionalism down there really isn't much one can do to be well above the next guy.  As we're seeing in MKE now, and in generally probably seeing with Cubs now. Ross seemed a competent/fine manager on a mediocre team and they had a fine mediocre season. They more or less have the same team now and continue to be mediocre with another competent manager. 

If someone else did all that stuff behind the scenes that most of don't have the knowledge or ability to do, then had us write the lineup and choose when to switch pitchers we'd probably be able to do just fine. After all, almost all these thousands of decisions fans often freak out and overreact to on a game by game basis are things that really could go either way and no one is a 'moron' for doing it. Sometimes things just don't work out. 

[Brian]

1 hour ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

First order of business: everybody bunts all the time

Second order of business: swing for the fences. 

[Brock Beauchamp]

5 minutes ago, Brian said:

Second order of business: swing for the fences. 

Can't steal bases if you're trotting around them all the time.

Boringggggg.

[ClosetBrewerFan]

41 minutes ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

Can't steal bases if you're trotting around them all the time.

Boringggggg.

I'm more efficient. Everybody bunt for the fences!