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Closer controversy: Torres vs. Gagne


adambr2

Do most here generally feel that Torres should stay in the closers role? I don't think there's anyone else in the bullpen right now that I feel more comfortable giving a 1 run lead to. He has relatively painlessly gotten the job done, while even Gagne's successes have been generally aggravating. I don't see how you can take the job away from him NOW, at least not until he starts to falter.

 

Torres seems like the safe choice right now, no one would blame Yost for sticking with him while he's still effective. If he goes back to Gagne; though, and Gagne falters, that's going to be the root of some controversy for sure.

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Whoever our most effective RP is... that guy should be the #1 non-closer option. If that's Torres, so be it. The closer's 'job description' puts him into some of the lowest-leverage situations. I'd be fine with Gagne there. I'd prefer just playing matchups, but the Save has become such a moneymaker that I know that's just a naive hope.
Stearns Brewing Co.: Sustainability from farm to plate
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im fine with torres in the closer role as long as the middle relief doesn't implode...

 

it's been awesome watch sheets and suppan throw a bunch of innings lately...takes a lot of pressure off of the viewer wondering which guy is going to cough it up..

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Do most here generally feel that Torres should stay in the closers role?

For me, I'd like Torres to continue closing even when Gagne returns. I'd used Gagne in low pressure situations or in middle relief.

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I want Torres in the closer role just so it forces Ned to somewhat limit his innings. He's being overworked, and this won't give Ned the opportunity to pitch him 2 innings.

He's not being overworked. His numbers are right in line with what he threw in Pitt for three years.

 

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Whoever our most effective RP is... that guy should be the #1 non-closer option. If that's Torres, so be it. The closer's 'job description' puts him into some of the lowest-leverage situations. I'd be fine with Gagne there. I'd prefer just playing matchups, but the Save has become such a moneymaker that I know that's just a naive hope.

That's a nice thought if you're playing the game on paper, but in the real life situations where the games on the line, the top pitcher has to be the closer, or at least you have to have a very reliable pitcher as your closer. The Cubs can get away using Marmol out of the closers role because they've got Wood who's very good. The Brewers don't have that luxury as of right now.

 

Torres has to stay the closer, but it'd be real nice if Gange could get the job back because it's nice having Torres being able to bridge the gap from the 6th to the 8th or whatever we ask of him. That Villy type role from last year. Then again...maybe Villy can fill it now!

 

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As long as Gagne doesn't make excuses about only being able to pitch in the 9th, I think Torres would work great as the closer and try Gagne in the 7th and 8th.

To be fair, at least to my knowledge, Gagne never made any such excuses. I think those just kinda got attributed to him as the Brewers and Red Sox scouts identified that as the main problem during his stay in Boston last year. In truth, Gagne said that wasn't the issue.

 

I think though that you almost have to go that route. At least when Gagne gets back.

 

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Villy in the 7th

Mota in the 8th

Torres in the 9th

I think the appeal of having Carlos in the bullpen is that he can give you 2 or 3 innings a couple times a week. Mota still scares me with his high walk rates. If the Brewers are up or down 3 I'm fine with him coming in, but a close game and I'm nervous. His lowish ERA seems to be a bit lucky right now. I'd rather have Torres pitch in the high-leverage situations (similar to the Cubs with Marmol), whether that's the 7th or the 9th.

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Who would you want to pitch the 8th right now?

Villy for those 3 innings that would be needed to be pitched. 5th through the 7th or 7th through the 9th depending on how well the bullpen is rested.

The 7th inning I would give that to Dillard. The 8th I would play match ups Mota against righties and Shouse against lefties. Have Torres close the games for now.
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That's a nice thought if you're playing the game on paper, but in the real life situations where the games on the line, the top pitcher has to be the closer, or at least you have to have a very reliable pitcher as your closer.

 

Well seeing as how the majority of higher-leverage situations are not limited to one inning (the 9th), locking your best RP into specific situations that many times aren't the highest leverage ones seems to be the 'if it were played on paper' approach. Yes, it sounds sexy to be "The Closer" -- but the reality is that the higher-leverage innings frequently don't go to the closer. This is not new knowledge, and it is not some wacky opinion. The 9th inning can sometimes be high-leverage. Unfortunately, if you freeze your best RP to only working under a certain set of circumstances, you cancel out much of the benefit of having a 'best RP'. What good is he if you don't use him whenever he's most needed?

 

Having a reliable closer is not the same as having your best RP as closer... but might as well just say that he "has" to be the closer, right? Playing the game on paper is crafting a set of predetermined rules under which the best RP shall only be used. The reason I want the best RP not locked in is that the game isn't played on paper (no kidding). Gagne has shoulder soreness... it's not like he just magically doesn't know how to pitch anymore. If he's healthy, he is a reliable RP. If not, we're lucky to have some other good choices. But taking the best reliever, and setting him in some iron-clad rule structure so there are many scenarios wher he can't be used when needed most, is not good strategy.

Stearns Brewing Co.: Sustainability from farm to plate
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Villy in the 7th

Mota in the 8th

Torres in the 9th

I completely disagree with that. All those guys can go more than one inning and limiting them to a certain inning instead of bringing them in to pitch multiple innings whenever needed is a waste. If one of those guys is pitching in the 8th inning and they don't come up to bat, send them out for the 9th.

Fan is short for fanatic.

I blame Wang.

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"That's a nice thought if you're playing the game on paper, but in the real life situations where the games on the line, the top pitcher has to be the closer, or at least you have to have a very reliable pitcher as your closer."

 

 

 

I would prefer to have my most reliable closer come in during the highest leverage situations. For example. 1-0 against the cards. They have their 3-5 guys up(2 righties). Give me Torres, whom has been the most "reliable." Let Mota come in during th 9th against 6-8.

 

EDIT: DOH, TLB said basically the same thing.

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Torres has just been a godsend.

 

In general, I just prefer to ride the wave of hot streaks, like Brian said. Unless it's three lefties in a row or something, then use Shouse. So, I guess a combination of matchups and recent performance (though it not very predictive as far as relievers go).

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I want Torres as the closer as long as he keeps the ball down in the strike zone along with movement. The 8th inning coluld be handled by committee---Mota, Tavarez, and/or Shouse depending on match-ups or potential pinch hitters. It would also be nice to have the Stetter who throws strikes. As soon as Gagne is pain free he needs to go to Nashville for some rehab appearances. I would make sure that those appearances are at least 2 innings a piece so that he either builds his arm strength or breaks down. I am not hoping he gets hurt but I wonder if part of his ineffectiveness is do to lack arm conditioning because he is babying himself for fear of getting hurt. I believe his current arm problems closely followed the only 2 inning appearance he has made this year.
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While talent isn't static, when you ride a hot streak, you are treating randomness as a predictive tool. Now, if the Brewers see that Torres has great velocity and wonderful movement, this year, great. That's information that isn't necessarily captured in his performance over the short term but it has to be considered. His "hotness" better not just be based on simply results, though.

 

Take last night for example. Had Fielder not handled that ball in the hole and Hardy not been able to dive for the liner up the middle, Torres may have blown it and this thread would be titled, "Who The Heck Will Be the Closer Now!?"

 

All that said, Torres is clearly the best reliever the Brewers have (based on past and current performance), which unfortunetely isn't saying much. And yes, I'm including Gagne in there, since what he did 5 years ago is completely irrelevant these days.

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Take last night for example. Had Fielder not handled that ball in the hole and Hardy not been able to dive for the liner up the middle, Torres may have blown it and this thread would be titled, "Who The Heck Will Be the Closer Now!?"

 

I know what you are saying -- but the balls caught by Prince and Hardy, are the sort of outs Torres induces (GBs). The thing that bugs me about Mota/Gagne are the BBs and HRs.

 

As long as Torres isn't walking people and keeps the ball in the park, I am quite alright with him being the closer.

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