Could Escobar or Hardy play 2B?

[apirk]

This has probably been discussed but I think if the Brewers could move one of these guys to 2B it vastly improves their team. At the very least they don't have to get rid of Hardy and they can get Weeks out of the lineup. Pick up Cameron's option and all you'd have to worry about is pitching this off season, maybe 3rd.

[dadofandrew]

They both could. Escobar will not be there long-term, as he profiles to a plus defensive SS.

[AJAY]

I really prefer to see Escobar have at least one full season at Triple A. I don't want to rush the kid.

[Ennder]

Escobar is likely a below average offensive player no matter where he plays so he has to sit at SS to have any value. Hardy is an above average offensive player at SS but it is borderline at 3B. At 2B he is still above average but since his arm is his defensive strength and not his range the 2B position is probably not the best fit for him.

 

No way in heck I mess with Hardy to make room for Escobar until he proves to me he can do it again at AAA.

[wisconsinfan47]

Hardy's great arm would be wasted at 2nd. I like JJ at 3rd with Escobar at Short.

[patrickgpe]

i agree with wisconsin fan, many shortstops have moved to 3rd. I think it would shore up the infield's defense.

[davego]

I wonder if JJ does get moved. High value now (saves $ in arby) and Escobar obviously has more years before FA.

[BREWCREW5]

There is alot of talk about Escobar being a great player one day. Does anyone know what he projects out to as far as how high his ceiling could go?

[endaround]

Escobar needs to add power. Some say 15 hrs? Ok, but thats full projection he hasn't shown anythign close to that level of power yet.. Yes he could be Jose Reyes, or he could as easily be Cesar Izturis.

[patrickgpe]

while he will never have the power of hardy, he will hit for a good average, steal some bases, and will be one of the best defensive shortstops in the game. so id project him to be somewhat like jose reyes.

[endaround]

Again the problem with that is Reyes' ISO is the majors is at 150 for his career while last season was the first time Escobar broke 100. Projecting him like that assumes his power comes, it could very well never come. Its hard projecting a skill developing that the player has yet to show.

[owbc]

Does it really matter if Escobar hits home runs or not? The guy is great defensively and last year he had a .363 OBP. We already have enough power, if the guy plays good defense and gets on base/steals bases, he'll be a good fit. Maybe Alcides is that leadoff hitter that we've been looking for.

[OglivieHomePerm]

The concern with Escobar is that while his .363 obp looks great, it was largely dependent on his .328 batting average. If he struggles in the majors, and only hits .250, you are looking at an OBP in the corey hart range.

[bjkrautk]

Does it really matter if Escobar hits home runs or not? The guy is great defensively and last year he had a .363 OBP. We already have enough power, if the guy plays good defense and gets on base/steals bases, he'll be a good fit. Maybe Alcides is that leadoff hitter that we've been looking for.

Using the Minor League Equivalency (MLE) calculator site (borrowed from the Weeks thread tangent on TGJ), Escobar's AA season in Huntsville would have translated out to a .280 / .312 / .364 line in Milwaukee (which is slightly more favorable than a team-neutral comparison). That's a # 8 hitter, not a leadoff guy.

 

I'd prefer giving Escobar a year at AAA, but I'm willing to concede that may not happen. Either way, I think extending Hardy should be one of the Brewers top priorities (after deciding on Sabathia....assuming they haven't already cut bait), with the understanding that he may ultimately be moved to 3b.

[brewerguy71]

I unfortunately think that Hardy will soon be without a position. Not that drastic of course, but he has horrible range for a shortstop, his arm is too good as many say to be a 2B and he doesnt have the offensive production to stay at 3B. Maybe he becomes a corner OF in the future.

 

Escobar is a SS plain and simple. He is going to be an outstanding defensive SS, and defense is the first priority in choosing Shortstops.

 

I have heard out there somewhere that Hardy only wants to play SS, that may not be in his best interest, because he is not going to be one for long. It would probably suit him best to be a 2B with a very good arm. Personally, I think if Escobar is ready to go, trading Hardy is the best thing for the Brewers. Escobar has upward potential, Weeks has upward potential, Hardy doesnt have much upward potential imo, and there is just no place to keep him once Escobar is ready.

[Ennder]

NL 3B put up a line of .265/.335/.441/.776 this year and Hardy had a line of .283/.343/.478/.821. So his bat is good enough to play at 3B, especially if his defense is above average.

 

I still want no part of Escobar in 2009 though, he hasn't proven he is ready yet. Not enough power, not enough BBs and a BABIP driven AVG in AA does not translate into major league success for me. He needs to grow as a hitter still.

[sgtcluels]

I don't think the team will give up on Weeks at 2nd. He's got at least one more year in the organization before they throw him aside. Perhaps with coaching changes he'll put it together. So I don't think there's much room for Escobar or Hardy to move to 2nd.

 

Hardy has a bat for a SS which means hiss value is high, if we move him to 3rd, he'll lose some value. So for the best of the team, the club may have to make the hard decision to gamble on Escobar and move Hardy for the best of the club. I know he's a popular player, especially with the girlies, but we may have someone better in the wings.

 

Personally, I'd like to see him moved to 3rd. Hes got a strong enough arm, he'll hurt our power a bit (But honestly, do we need more power?) compared to average 3rd basemen. But our left side defense would be solid, and with Escobar range, perhaps it can help shore up the right side defense as Escobar can get to more balls.

[JohnBriggs12]

I don't think moving Hardy to 3B lowers his value at all. Another team can still move him back to SS if that's their need. He'd be moving to 3B to make room for Escobar not because he can't play the position. Teams aren't going to forget he was a pretty good SS.

[mletto157]

100% agree with JohnBriggs. And actually, he's still above average offensively for 3B... just not as much as SS.

[JJHardy7]

I don't think moving Hardy to 3B lowers his value at all. Another team can still move him back to SS if that's their need. He'd be moving to 3B to make room for Escobar not because he can't play the position. Teams aren't going to forget he was a pretty good SS.

 

The value that it does potentially hurt is the money JJ could possibly lose by moving to 3b. JJ would make more money being at SS than he would at 3B IMO. Now if he plays 3B and leaves via trade (before an extension) or free agency it won't hurt his value if he's moved back to SS.

[giffted1]

From the Chicago Tribune:

 

The current plan is to have Escobar work with new coach Willie Randolph[/i] at second base during the spring. …

[CheezWizHed]

I'm completely lost in the whole "value" argument that seems so prevalent when talking about moving players around (Hall, Weeks, Hardy). Yes, I understand he will be less above the average 3B than he is above the average SS. But the goal is the field the best team possible. If we could swap JJ for a 3B with a better bat and equal D, then yeah lets do that. But chances are, it won't happen.

 

Chance are, our best option is to move JJ to 3B or 2B (again, I agree Escobar is still one year away), then who cares about "value". Our best option is our best option. If we get a great trade for him, then fine. If not, he is an above average 3B (in defense, power, and OBP), but for 2010 instead. You can't always trade people so they are in their best position. Sometimes you make do with what you have.

 

Edit: Removed quote from JJHardy7 - misread the quote.

[Ennder]

Jason Kendall at 1B is less valuable than he is at C, I don't know how that doesn't make sense. Instead of moving Hardy to 3B we could probably sign an average 3B who would be about as productive as he was, for that same money we couldn't hope to find a SS to replace him. His value has most certainly gone down with a move. All of that to make room for a SS that might never be better than Adam Everett with worse defense. I just don't think it makes much sense.

 

If we decide to go with Escobar in say 2010 then the option that makes the most sense is to trade Hardy for value and sign a 3B instead of moving him.

[monkeyman343434]

I know people keep saying to maximize Hardy's value (if Escobar is used at short and Hardy is either traded or moved to another position) is to trade him and sign another 3B, just as Ennder has stated above. I rarely post, but I often lurk and read, but I keep thinking to myself, "so who is this 3B we are going to sign / trade for? and are they going to be better than what Hardy could do at 3B, and if so, how much are they going to cost in FA or in a trade?" the only better 3B than Hardy (if he was moved there) that i can think of would be A-Rod, D. Wright, Youklis (when he plays there instead of 1B), Miguel Cabrera (who is a 1b now), Chipper (when healthy - big if, and coming to the end of his career), Longoria, and Aramis Ramirez. I would say none of those guys could be had. Ryan Zimmerman would probably be a bit of an upgrade, although he was injured last year, and I highly doubt the Nats would deal him, Alex Gordon has the potential, but he hasn't put up the numbers yet (yes, i know he's young and will probably get better over the next few years) but again, I don't see KC dealing him. That leaves the likes of Garrett Atkins (no thanks), Mark DeRosa, Jorge Cantu, Adrian Beltre (a possibility?), Aubrey Huff (no he's not a 3B, he's a DH or 1B), Troy Glaus, Casey Blake, Melvin Mora, E. Encarnacion, Kouzmanoff, Lowell, and I'll stop there.

Would you really want any of those guys playing 3B instead of Hardy? Yes, it'd be ideal to get a "solid/average" 3B and trade Hardy for more value, but you have to look at what is actually out there, and I just don't see why Hardy couldn't help this team out at 3B, his range is about average and has a plus arm, isn't that what is usually looked for at 3B?

Sorry for the long post, just needed to get that off my chest that this "ideal" 3B really doesn't exist out there at this moment

[TooLiveBrew]

From the Chicago Tribune:

 

The current plan is to have Escobar work with new coach Willie Randolph[/i] at second base during the spring. …

Interesting. Did TH miss the boat on this one? Seems odd that'd come from the Trib. I like the plan -- why not try to give Escobar as much value as possible? If his bat can 'stick' & he handles 2B as well as he should, that gives Melvin a lot of flexibility regarding the IF/Weeks. I'm obviously a big Rickie backer, but if Alcides proves he's ready to hit MLB pitching, and Weeks can bring in value to help the team, I wouldn't value my fandom over an improved squad. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

 

 

Sorry for the long post, just needed to get that off my chest that this "ideal" 3B really doesn't exist out there at this moment

I think, at worst, you're mostly correct in that statement, but the point is also that [Hardy 3B + Escobar SS] might be < [Replacement 3B + Escobar SS + 'Return for Hardy in other trade']