Jump to content
Brewer Fanatic

My 2013 Hall of Fame Ballot Would Be...


splitterpfj

Recommended Posts

  • Replies 127
  • Created
  • Last Reply

I'm less sure about Piazza and maybe Biggio (though I believe he was a far better hitter than Barry Larkin, yet also with stellar intangibles).

 

I'd put most if not all Splitter's list in plus McGwire, too, and Sosa if he's eligible, too.

 

Steroids, shmeroids. I hope you call caught this great Jan. 2nd SweetSpot blog post by David Schoenfield:

 

http://espn.go.com/blog/sweetspot/post/_/id/31831/gaylord-perry-cheaters-and-the-hall

 

. . . pointing out what I've been saying for years, that Gaylord Perry's just as much of a cheater, and steroids are just the latest PED or "method" for competitive advantage, which to me says all the "holier than thou" posturing re: steroids blatantly & totally fallibly ignores every other previous sin except gambling (remember, after all, that cocaine's an upper, too, so why is that ignored in the cases of Stargell, Molitor, etc.?). The HOF's so seriously tainted that it couldn't really ever be made "pure."

 

I'm not saying any steroid users were right -- not at all. But I'd say vote based on the numbers and let the lens of time tell the tale. The BBWA needs to stick to baseball, not defining or imposing certain individual moralities while ignoring lots of others. . . . Jack Morris a HOF'er? That's a viable BBWA issue to tackle. Bonds was one of the greatest before any steroid use was suspected. Will A-Rod be blackballed, too, because he was found out. . . . like Braun's deal, confidential info that was ALWAYS supposed to be private forever? Steroid use -- or suspected use -- or any other method of competitive advantage -- just plain aren't as black-and-white as some would want us to think they are.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Community Moderator

I put in all the steroid users, even though it pains me to vote for Sosa, Pamieiro and Clemens. I don't have a good argument to reject them and let in McGwire and Bonds.

 

Morris

Bagwell

Smith

Raines

Martinez

McGwire

Palmeiro

Bonds

Clemens

Piazza

Schilling

Biggio

Sosa

Lofton

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Take the years 1996-2002 of the steroid era replace them with the players you're considering avg years outside of those years and what becomes your feeling on voting Sosa,McGuire,Bonds,Clemens in?

I don't see McGuire or Sosa as HOF players when given an avg year for them vs what they did prior to use of Steroids. Bonds? It's clear his 4year run being juiced but before that he was on track as a HOF career. So, as much as I hate to say it but Bonds gets in to me as well as Clemens.

 

 

I also vote in Bagwell and I'd vote his swing in to a HOF of it's own. Piazza,Schilling,Biggio are no-brainers imo.

For Kicks I'll throw in Jeff Cirillo as he and Fernando Vina were favorites of mine in a time when it was hard to watch Milwaukee. Besides who doesn't love hearing his superstitions! Sleeping with his Bat! LOL Classic

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah I wouldn't vote in Sosa because I don't believe he was a good hitter outside of steroids. I wouldn't vote in Lee Smith either.

 

I might skip Bonds in year 1 and vote him year 2.

 

Morris shouldn't be in the hall and I think Lofton falls short too. Schilling and McGwire are really close cases for me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Community Moderator

The tie-breaker for McGwire and Sosa is the 1998 season--even with steroids, Bonds is the only other player to exceed 61 HR in a season. McGwire hit 245 in 4 years, everyone else was juicing but nobody ever came to that kind of run. As for Sosa, he's one of only 8 in the 600 HR club.

 

Clemens won 24 games in 1986, so it seems that the Bonds argument applies to him also. But I vote him in regardless--not only are his numbers incredible, but he was facing juiced players so the playing field was level in my opinion.

 

I don't think it's right to speculate on what these guys' numbers would be without steroids. How do I know if Sosa would have hit 300, 400, or 500 HR? You can only look at it in the context of the era, by comparing to other players of that time.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

didnt sosa get busted for corked bats numerous times? or was it just once?

Posted: July 10, 2014, 12:30 AM

PrinceFielderx1 Said:

If the Brewers don't win the division I should be banned. However, they will.

 

Last visited: September 03, 2014, 7:10 PM

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I believe Sammy was only busted once for the corked bat. He said a batting practice bat accidentally got into the game.

That’s the only thing Chicago’s good for: to tell people where Wisconsin is.

[align=right]-- Sigmund Snopek[/align]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

McGriff just misses for me, although I can certainly see an argument to let him in. Sosa's a marginal HoF'er to me so with all the added crap I'm not voting for him. I don't like milestone voting when it comes to 500 HR's, as in recent years we've seen a lot of marginal players who have a shot at eclipsing 500 (Adam Dunn).

 

Bonds, Clemens, Piazza, Bagwell, Biggio.

 

 

 

 

(and...probably McGwire if I'm being completely objective)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I believe Sammy was only busted once for the corked bat. He said a batting practice bat accidentally got into the game.

My understanding is that a corked bat wouldn't help with HR anyway. Superballs in a bat on the other hand would help a lot.

Fan is short for fanatic.

I blame Wang.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I put in all the steroid users, even though it pains me to vote for Sosa, Pamieiro and Clemens. I don't have a good argument to reject them and let in McGwire and Bonds.

 

Morris

Bagwell

Smith

Raines

Martinez

McGwire

Palmeiro

Bonds

Clemens

Piazza

Schilling

Biggio

Sosa

Lofton

 

Currently limited to 10 ,which will create problems in future years considering I don't think anybody gets in.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My ballot would be:

 

Jeff Bagwell

Craig Biggio

Barry Bonds

Roger Clemens

Mike Piazza

Tim Raines

Curt Schilling

Lee Smith

Larry Walker

Bernie Williams

 

I don't have anything against those who would keep the steroid suspects out. I recently felt that way, too.

 

But the Hall needs fan interest and induction ceremonies, and Hank O'Day, Jacob Ruppert & Deacon White aren't going to draw anyone by themselves.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think a voter has to assume all players during the steroid era are suspect regardless of whether they were caught or not.

 

I'd stay away from voting for a first timer on the ballot who is a known user or bat corker though. So I'd leave Clemens, Bonds and Sosa off.

 

My votes would go to Biggio, Bagwell, Piazza, Schilling and Raines.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I read somewhere on the interwebs that there is a group who does a sort of exit poll of voting. They have a group of people who reveal their votes to them. They've been fairly accurate in predicting who gets in, only a few outliers on percentages. This year they say no one gets in, with Biggio and then Bagwell being the closest. The big 2 (Bonds/Clemens) weren't cracking 50%. I think Biggio fell short around 72%, which would certainly give him a chance with margin for error.

 

Personally, I'd love to see Biggio and Bagwell go in together. I have no aversion to Clemens or Bonds either.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There is a website that tracks people who have publically given their ballot and they have gotten about 10% of the vote and nobody is set to get in from that 10%. I forget what the site is called though.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

My ballot:

Bagwell

Biggio

Lofton

Piazza

Raines

Smith

Trammell

 

Don't want to touch the whole steroids matter this year.

 

Larry Walker is hurt by not achieving the "magic plateau" numbers (383 HRs, 2160 Hs). Under 400 HRs and 2500 hits; say what you want about more advanced stats, those old school categories are still going to be noticed by many of the writers. Another season or two may have gotten him off the HOF bubble. "Why Bagwell and not Walker?" could be an interesting question to answer; how much do ballpark factors creep into it (Olympic Stadium, Coors Field, Old Busch Stadium vs. Astrodome and Minute Maid Park).

 

Not exactly sure what to do with Edgar Martinez. Brings up the whole DH debate, since his career was ~75% as a DH in terms of career games played.

 

Steve Finley, Julio Franco, Don Mattingly, Fred McGriff, Dale Murphy, and Bernie Williams all get enshrined into the Hall of Very Good.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think if you are holding guys out because of steroids you should be voting in Mattingly, McGriff and Murphy on the good character and almost good enough stats clause. If you are able to get past 'character flaws' then I wouldn't vote them in. The character thing has to be a two way street though.

 

Then again all 3 of those guys deserve to be in over Puckett or Dawson so the whole thing is kind of a sham.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have really, really struggled with this, guys. I don't think the guys that have been suspected of steroids should be kept out of the Hall. At the same time, I don't think they should be elected on the first ballot. Make them wait...and wait...and wait.

 

My choices for this year's ballot:

 

Craig Biggio

Jeff Bagwell

Mike Piazza

Tim Raines

 

Craig Biggio's versatility made him great. He played 1,989 games as a second baseman, 428 as a catcher, and 363 as an outfielder. 3,060 career hits (of which 1,014 were of the extra-base variety), 1,844 runs scored, 291 home runs and 414 stolen bases...one of the best second basemen ever. Only four men in the history of the game have more doubles than his 668-Tris Speaker, Pete Rose, Ty Cobb and Stan Musial. 5 Silver Slugger Awards (4 as a second baseman, only Ryne Sandberg has more), 4 Gold Gloves, and he rarely missed a game.

 

Mike Piazza is arguably the greatest offense catcher to ever play the game. He's certainly in the discussion with Johnny Bench, Roy Campanella, Ivan Rodriguez, Yogi Berra, Gary Carter and Carlton Fisk. That he was drafted in the 62nd round is baffling. Piazza ended with a .308 lifetime average, 427 home runs and 1,335 RBI. His ten Silver Sluggers are the second most all-time. Only Barry Bonds (12) has more.

 

Tim Raines has suffered being in the shadow of Rickey Henderson. But a .294 average with 2,605 hits, 1,571 runs scored and 808 stolen bases should get him in. He was one of the most exciting players to step on the field in my lifetime.

 

Jeff Bagwell is flying under the radar, but he was one of the best hitters of his generation in my opinion. The numbers he put up in his MVP year of 1994 (the strike-shortened season) were just obscene. He played in 110 games, scored 104 runs and drove in 116. He hit .368 with 39 HR. He slugged .750, his OPS was 1.201, and his OPS + was a ridiculous 213. When you look at the rest of his career, it is impressive. The career numbers of .297 AVG, 449 HR, 1,529 RBI are quite good. But the other splits are better. .408 OBP/.540 SLG/.948 OPS.

 

The 152 runs he scored in 2000 were the most since Lou Gehrig's 163 in 1931. He had 9 30 HR seasons in 10 years, he was 30-30 HR/SB twice. Between 1994 and 2003, his averages: .301 AVG, 37 HR, 116 RBI. He had a .994 OPS for that ten year period. To compare, Miguel Cabrera led the majors with a .999 OPS in 2012.

 

Eventually, Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens will get in, and I would vote for them, but not for a few years.

 

Jack Morris is NOT a Hall of Famer, in my opinion. His 3.90 ERA would be the highest by any pitcher in the Hall.

 

Larry Walker won three batting titles, and had a .313 career average. To say that his numbers were inflated by playing at Coors Field is an understatement. He hit .379 in 1999, but his splits are eye popping. He hit .286 on the road, and .461 at Coors Field. His MVP season was an anomaly. He hit 29 of his 49 homers on the road, and batted .346 on the road (.384 at home).

 

Kenny Lofton might warrant further consideration. If Tim Raines goes in, the argument could be made for Lofton. A lifetime .299 hitter, 2,428 hits, 1,528 runs, 622 stolen bases...and unlike Raines, Lofton won four Gold Gloves.

 

Rafael Palmeiro, I don't know. 3,000 hits and 500 home runs should get him in, but the steroids....

There are three things America will be known for 2000 years from now when they study this civilization: the Constitution, jazz music and baseball. They're the three most beautifully designed things this culture has ever produced. Gerald Early
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Community Moderator

Didn't realize only 10 could get in. If it comes down to that, then I have to drop the steroid users: Sosa, Palmeiro, and McGwire. Along with Martinez.

 

It appears nobody is getting in, which will make it even harder to vote in future years. Not sure how guys like Biggio and Piazza get rejected unless there are writers submitting blank ballots, which is unacceptable.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

The Twins Daily Caretaker Fund
The Brewer Fanatic Caretaker Fund

You all care about this site. The next step is caring for it. We’re asking you to caretake this site so it can remain the premiere Brewers community on the internet. Included with caretaking is ad-free browsing of Brewer Fanatic.

×
×
  • Create New...