2022 NFL Discussion Thread

[sveumrules]

GOAT is a subjective measurement, there is no objective criteria. It can always be argued, that's the whole point.

 

Here is a listing of how the defenses for Brady & some other recent All Time Great QBs stacked up in terms of points allowed ranking on a seasonal basis, with SB winning seasons bolded...

 

Brady (AVG DEF 7.05)

 

6, 17, 1, 2, 17, 2, 4, 5, 8, 15, 9, 10, 8, 10, 1, 5, 7, 1, 8, 5

 

Rodgers (AVG DEF 16.46)

 

22, 7, 2, 19, 11, 24, 13, 12, 21, 26, 22, 9, 13, 13

 

Manning (AVG DEF 14.59)

 

29, 17, 15, 31, 7, 20, 19, 2, 23, 1, 7, 8, 23, 4, 22, 16, 4

 

Brees (AVG DEF 18.37)

 

22, 31, 11, 13, 13, 25, 26, 20, 7, 13, 31, 4, 28, 32, 31, 10, 14, 13, 5

 

Favre (AVG DEF 12.16)

 

15, 9, 5, 4, 1, 5, 11, 20, 14, 5, 12, 11, 23, 19, 25, 6, 18, 10, 18

 

Montana / Young (AVG DEF 5.67)

 

2, 23, 4, 1, 2, 3, 3, 8, 3, 2, 4, 3, 16, 6, 2, 4, 3, 13

 

Maybe Brady & Montana had some special sauce that set them apart from other ATG QBs, or maybe they consistently were paired with much better defenses. Again, I come down more on the side of the latter than the former, though I would never discount either entirely.

[nate82]

I wonder how many SB's Marino would have won if he played for Dallas instead of Miami?

[sveumrules]

I wonder how many SB's Marino would have won if he played for Dallas instead of Miami?

 

Exactly. I feel like the GOAT conversation is a little more relevant in basketball where someone like Jordan or LeBron or Kareem or Russell or Wilt can impact the game on both ends of the court.

 

A QB certainly exerts the most influence over the results of a football game, but that impact is much closer to a starting pitcher in baseball than it is to an NBA superstar. I mean Cy Young has the most wins, losses, games started, complete games and innings pitched in baseball history, plus an award named after him, does that make him the GOAT pitcher? I don't know, but my vote is for Satchel Paige.

 

People can say Starr is the Packers GOAT QB because he has the most rings, but I'd say that is taking a very narrow focus & not really considering the full historical context.

 

From 1961 to 1967 the Packers defense ranked 2, 1, 2, 2, 1, 1, 3 in points allowed. Holmgren & McCarthy were pretty good or maybe even great coaches for a spell, but they were no Lombardi. Favre/Rodgers had Reggie, LeRoy & Woodson in 30 years for defensive HOFs. Starr had Adderley, Davis, Jordan, Nitschke & Wood in 7 years for defensive HOFs. Starr played in a league with half as many teams over 50 years ago.

[nodakfan17]

Tom Brady’s career regular season record is 243-73 (0.769). The players with the second most wins (tie) are Peyton Manning (186-79, 0.702) and Brett Favre (186-112, 0.624). That’s impressive, but what gets me is that Tom Brady has DOUBLE the amount of career wins than all but 9 other QBs. You could cut his career in half and both halves (2000-2010 and 2011-2022) would be in the Top 5 conversation. He has played at such a high level for so long, that it’s not much of a debate for me anymore. Although, as a Packer fan, I’m insanely jealous of the defenses he’s played with.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

You have to say he's the best by default due to all the winning even though I think it is a bit myopic. In reality for me he is more like what happens when you get a top 15, durable QB and combine it with the best coach of all time and a GM/organization that was incredibly efficient and shrewd. Each needed the other but the combination was unstoppable. And I don't know what the special sauce was but he clearly had a knack for galvanizing a team.

 

Once you have 7 championships it gets hard to make a case for anyone. But it's always going to be a joke how people use them to elevate players. Prior to this year people thought Stafford was a turnover-prone, good but not great QB. He plays a decent Super Bowl in which his defense surrenders very few points, and suddenly he's a Canton shoe-in and clutch and daring and all this other nonsense.

 

And I'll never understand why Brees get this pass that Rodgers doesn't. The only difference between the two is that Brees wasn't as good and had a bunch of seasons where the Saints couldn't make the playoffs. Rodgers elevated some .500 teams and got them within earshot of the Super Bowl, and his legacy is actually worse for it. Where most of the time he was elevating mediocre teams, the hindsight judgement is going to be that he "couldn't seal the deal." He'd have been better off missing the playoffs 5 times, honestly.

[CheezWizHed]

People can say Starr is the Packers GOAT QB because he has the most rings, but I'd say that is taking a very narrow focus & not really considering the full historical context.

I'm not saying Starr was the Packer greatest of all time (sorry, I can't think say Starr is a "goat", because a goat to me is a stubborn animal that eats anything), because I didn't experience that generation of football. But I would say it is far more than just getting rings. He stood out above his peers as a QB and was an incredible leader. Obviously you can't compare stats from different eras directly (even Favre to Rodgers is quite different).

 

But that would also be the difference (to me) between Rodgers and Brady. Rodgers is a great arm talent - the GOAT of interceptions. Rodgers isn't (IMO) the team leader Brady is. Actually, I've thought that if you took Favre's heart and leadership and combined it with Rodger's arm talent and football intelligence, you'd have something like Brady (probably better honestly, but more aligned).

 

If Brady won 7 SBs with the Ravens and put up Trent Dilfer-like numbers, no one would think the wins matter. But Brady was obviously a huge key to so many of their wins and had neck-and-neck stats with his peers.

 

An no... I'm no Brady fan. I cursed every time he won another SB and cheered when he lost. But I can't deny that he was something special... the whole was more than the sum of the parts type player.

 

Once you have 7 championships it gets hard to make a case for anyone. But it's always going to be a joke how people use them to elevate players. Prior to this year people thought Stafford was a turnover-prone, good but not great QB. He plays a decent Super Bowl in which his defense surrenders very few points, and suddenly he's a Canton shoe-in and clutch and daring and all this other nonsense.

 

Stafford was a big part of the team's win, but he wasn't the key player either... In fact, he was probably third in line for the SB MVP. He still looked (to me) like an above average QB (like Ben Roth or Eli Manning) to me. (Even though Ben and Eli will make the HOF, that doesn't change my opinion that they shouldn't).

[OldSchoolSnapper]

Actually, I've thought that if you took Favre's heart and leadership

 

This isn't the first time I've seen something like this and it seems a lot more rooted in folklore than reality. Like what people think Favre was vs. what he actually was. This is the same guy who had his private locker away from the team and spent the back 9 of his career mostly isolating himself from younger teammates.

 

"“He was such a disappointment to me,” said Samp. “If it was his turn in the quarterback rotation and he saw me at wide receiver, he’d wave Rodgers in instead of throwing to me. Just because I was no one. It wasn’t just me. He had favorites.

 

“I looked up to him. But if I had to run a 12-yard route, he’d wing the ball even before I got to the cut. Then he’d throw his hands up. I’d come back and say, ‘What am I doing wrong?’ He’d say, ‘Forget it. I’m not looking at you.’ He was a jerk. To me. To Aaron.”

 

I'm not saying that Favre was actually a jerk or a bad leader, I don't know what he was. But I a) think his leadership has been glorified and b) Rodgers reputation has suffered disproportionately based on the actual evidence. There are a lot of guys who have defended him and called him an awesome leader and really it's been the words of the same 2 guys that get repeatedly rehashed and used against him.

[sveumrules]

If Brady won 7 SBs with the Ravens and put up Trent Dilfer-like numbers, no one would think the wins matter. But Brady was obviously a huge key to so many of their wins and had neck-and-neck stats with his peers.

 

Here are how the Ravens defenses ranked in terms of points allowed during Brady's career...

 

4, 19, 6, 6, 10, 1, 22, 3, 3, 3, 3, 12, 12, 6, 24, 9, 6, 2, 3, 2, 19 (AVG DEF 8.33)

 

Brady's defenses (AVG DEF 7.05) were actually slightly better than the Ravens defenses during his career. Three of Tom's SBs came paired with the #1 or 2 defense. The other four were ranked 6, 7 or 8. The worst defense he ever played with ranked 17th in points allowed, so he essentially went his whole career without a below average defense playing the other half of his games. The two times he lead the league in passer rating (2007, 2010) the Pats lost the Super Bowl.

 

I'm not saying Brady is a Dilfer level game manager that got lucky, he's clearly much better than that. I'm just saying "he won the most so he's the GOAT" is leaving out a lot of relevant information.

[CheezWizHed]

Actually, I've thought that if you took Favre's heart and leadership

 

This isn't the first time I've seen something like this and it seems a lot more rooted in folklore than reality. Like what people think Favre was vs. what he actually was. This is the same guy who had his private locker away from the team and spent the back 9 of his career mostly isolating himself from younger teammates.

 

"“He was such a disappointment to me,” said Samp. “If it was his turn in the quarterback rotation and he saw me at wide receiver, he’d wave Rodgers in instead of throwing to me. Just because I was no one. It wasn’t just me. He had favorites.

 

“I looked up to him. But if I had to run a 12-yard route, he’d wing the ball even before I got to the cut. Then he’d throw his hands up. I’d come back and say, ‘What am I doing wrong?’ He’d say, ‘Forget it. I’m not looking at you.’ He was a jerk. To me. To Aaron.”

 

I'm not saying that Favre was actually a jerk or a bad leader, I don't know what he was. But I a) think his leadership has been glorified and b) Rodgers reputation has suffered disproportionately based on the actual evidence. There are a lot of guys who have defended him and called him an awesome leader and really it's been the words of the same 2 guys that get repeatedly rehashed and used against him.

 

I remember the quote from Samp (a WR that had no prayer of making the roster) and chuckle. Here is a one-sided view from one player that was barely in camp.

 

But regardless, Favre certainly did not "age well" later in his career with the teammate level qualities. But neither did Rodgers. I've seen both of them go through a mid-life crisis late in their career as their "buddies" retired or moved on and they were left with the younger guys that they struggled to connect with.

 

Not saying Rodgers is a bad leader, but he was certainly more the perfectionist and that flowed out in his relationships with players - especially new ones. Rodger ego was often brought out (which I think goes with his perfectionist issues) and when people slighted him, he held a grudge. Favre was no saint. I'm sure there are players that loved both and players that hated both. But I'll take Favre's attitude on the field (never stop, keep fighting, move on from mistakes) over Rodgers every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

 

I'm not saying Brady is a Dilfer level game manager that got lucky, he's clearly much better than that. I'm just saying "he won the most so he's the GOAT" is leaving out a lot of relevant information.

 

Clearly. That was the point of comparing him to Dilfer's SB win (where D and RBs were most of the reason they won).

 

So the context of Brady putting up similar QB numbers as Rodgers, Brees, Manning, etc... yet win SO many more SBs makes it pretty clear. Perhaps he had better defense, but how many game winning drives did he have? Have many SB MVPs did he pull in? How many times did it look like some team had knocked him out and he came back to win it?

 

There is plenty of context to say he is the GOAT, as much as I'd hate to say it. His hardware says it. His stats say it (#1 in TDs, #1 in yds, 4th QB rating). The eyeball check says it. Frankly, you have to squint pretty hard to not say it even with my green and gold glasses on.

[logan82]

I think there were some games where Favre hurt the team by playing injured to keep his streak going.

 

Plus, he made Sanders split the MVP one year which was crap.

[nodakfan17]

Plus, he made Sanders split the MVP one year which was crap.

That’s a tough one. Sanders had 2,000 yards and averaged 6.1 yards per carry in 1997, but the Lions were only 9-7. Favre’s numbers had leveled off form the previous campaign (35 TDs, 3,900 yards), but the Packers were 13-3.

[homer]

Steelers have hired Brian Flores as senior defensive assistant and linebackers coach

[Joseph Zarr]

I don't know who Aaron Wilson is or was before he came on at Pro Football Network but he has been, in my estimations, the best Rumors and News guy this early off-season. He has been announcing nearly everything before anyone else. Clearly using those connections from earlier in his career (?) and those tossed his way within the PFN team. Anyhow, for anyone looking for info and gossip in the FA lull etc. he seems to be 'the guy'.

 

Find him here:https://twitter.com/AaronWilson_NFL

 

And here: https://www.profootballnetwork.com/nfl-news-rumor-mill/

[Matt Breen]

I don't know who Aaron Wilson is or was before he came on at Pro Football Network but he has been, in my estimations, the best Rumors and News guy this early off-season. He has been announcing nearly everything before anyone else. Clearly using those connections from earlier in his career (?) and those tossed his way within the PFN team. Anyhow, for anyone looking for info and gossip in the FA lull etc. he seems to be 'the guy'.

 

Find him here:https://twitter.com/AaronWilson_NFL

 

And here: https://www.profootballnetwork.com/nfl-news-rumor-mill/

Thanks.

[PinaMadness]

Calvin Ridley suspended for the season for gambling.

 

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/33446869/nfl-suspends-atlanta-falcons-wr-calvin-ridley-least-2022-season-betting-games

[homer]

Calvin Ridley suspended for the season for gambling.

 

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/33446869/nfl-suspends-atlanta-falcons-wr-calvin-ridley-least-2022-season-betting-games

 

Yeah you figured this was coming at some point to some player. Doesn't surprise me they dropped the full season hammer.

[ThisIsMyCrew]

Calvin Ridley suspended for the season for gambling.

 

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/33446869/nfl-suspends-atlanta-falcons-wr-calvin-ridley-least-2022-season-betting-games

 

Yeah you figured this was coming at some point to some player. Doesn't surprise me they dropped the full season hammer.

 

This is where I don’t like the NFL police. It’s all well and fine to give him a 1 year suspension, not gonna argue that. But what’s insane to me is he gets a year for gambling but guys like Kareem Hunt gets 8 games for beating a woman. How on earth is gambling a longer offense?

[homer]

Calvin Ridley suspended for the season for gambling.

 

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/33446869/nfl-suspends-atlanta-falcons-wr-calvin-ridley-least-2022-season-betting-games

 

Yeah you figured this was coming at some point to some player. Doesn't surprise me they dropped the full season hammer.

 

This is where I don’t like the NFL police. It’s all well and fine to give him a 1 year suspension, not gonna argue that. But what’s insane to me is he gets a year for gambling but guys like Kareem Hunt gets 8 games for beating a woman. How on earth is gambling a longer offense?

 

Yeah it's kind of a joke.

[Fear The Chorizo]

Pete Rose was banned for life from baseball after betting on the game. Pro sports leagues aren't courts of law - blame the judicial system for players like Hunt being able to continue playing after a half season ban because he wasn't still in prison after assaulting someone.

 

Weird enough as the optics are, gambling on the league you play in is a cardinal sin for members of professional sports teams and is typically a fireable offense - workplaces everywhere have plenty of instantly fireable offenses that aren't also felonies or even misdemeanors.

[adambr2]

Pete Rose was banned for life from baseball after betting on the game. Pro sports leagues aren't courts of law - blame the judicial system for players like Hunt being able to continue playing after a half season ban because he wasn't still in prison after assaulting someone.

 

Weird enough as the optics are, gambling on the league you play in is a cardinal sin for members of professional sports teams and is typically a fireable offense - workplaces everywhere have plenty of instantly fireable offenses that aren't also felonies or even misdemeanors.

 

I think most people believe that Pete Rose should be reinstated and in the HOF.

 

Cardinal sin it may be, but i think it's fair to question if it should be.

 

Betting on your own team to win a game doesn't compromise the integrity of that game.

 

Betting against your own team? Yes, I can understand. Any officials/referees placing a bet? Yes, I can understand. Any other bet that doesn't compromise an outcome, why do we care?

[Fear The Chorizo]

Pete Rose was banned for life from baseball after betting on the game. Pro sports leagues aren't courts of law - blame the judicial system for players like Hunt being able to continue playing after a half season ban because he wasn't still in prison after assaulting someone.

 

Weird enough as the optics are, gambling on the league you play in is a cardinal sin for members of professional sports teams and is typically a fireable offense - workplaces everywhere have plenty of instantly fireable offenses that aren't also felonies or even misdemeanors.

 

I think most people believe that Pete Rose should be reinstated and in the HOF.

 

Cardinal sin it may be, but i think it's fair to question if it should be.

 

Betting on your own team to win a game doesn't compromise the integrity of that game.

 

Betting against your own team? Yes, I can understand. Any officials/referees placing a bet? Yes, I can understand. Any other bet that doesn't compromise an outcome, why do we care?

 

It's a pandora's box pro sports teams don't want to open, simple as that. I don't disagree with some of your points, but it's like insider trading in a sense where any aspect of it is skeezy and damages the integrity of the game IMO. It's not like players don't know one another on other teams, so just because it's not betting on the team you play for there's not loopholes for impropriety through back channels.

[jerichoholicninja]

Who really cares about the players gambling "ruining the integrity of the game"? All you have to do is watch any pro sport to see how much the inconsistency and incompetency of the officials is a bigger threat.

[Joseph Zarr]

Russell Wilson to Denver. Blockbuster trade you say? Today is awesome. That is all. LOL. Congrats to Hackett! He got a top-tier qb to play with with plenty left in the gas tank.

[jerichoholicninja]

I'm sure they gave up more than they would have for Rodgers but this certainly seems like a better outcome to have Wilson for a good number of years rather than Aron for a year or two.

[Joseph Zarr]

I'm sure they gave up more than they would have for Rodgers but this certainly seems like a better outcome to have Wilson for a good number of years rather than Aron for a year or two.

 

100%. Makes way more sense and, honestly, it was the first think I thought after the A-Rod news: "Sure seems like Russ is a great option for Denver." Denver fans have to be tickled pink.