2022 Trade Market

[brewers888]

12 minutes ago, nate82 said:

Doesn’t matter either way.  You are talking about the 7 8 or 9 hitter.  They have very little impact on the offense.  Trading assets away for what would be a small gain is just dumb.  You would have to trade for someone that will be better than Adames and Tellez and at CF there really isn’t anyone like that available.  Again it will be better for the Brewers to trade for players who won’t cost all that much in terms of prospects.  

Cain has been amongst the very worst hitters in baseball. You can't just have what is almost an automatic out in the lineup. Hopefully Taylor shows enough to claim the everyday spot because Cain is just not an everyday player and is almost at the point where he can't even be on the roster.

[nate82]

Just now, brewers888 said:

Cain has been amongst the very worst hitters in baseball. You can't just have what is almost an automatic out in the lineup. Hopefully Taylor shows enough to claim the everyday spot because Cain is just not an everyday player and is almost at the point where he can't even be on the roster.

Teams have an automatic out in their lineup every game that is why they bat so low in the lineup.  Cain batting in the bottom of the order is perfectly fine.  

[brewers888]

Just now, nate82 said:

Teams have an automatic out in their lineup every game that is why they bat so low in the lineup.  Cain batting in the bottom of the order is perfectly fine.  

No its not fine having a guy that will probably have an OPS around .500 in the lineup everyday if you are a contending team as we are.

[Robocaller]

4 hours ago, nate82 said:

Not sure why the Twins would want to give up someone like that.  He looks to be more of a 4th or 5th OF.  Why give up assets when you already have a player like him on the team already.

I don't see CF as this glaring problem as everyone else apparently.  I just don't see Cain and Taylor as being a problem that the Brewers have to go out and trade for someone.  When Cain is in lately he has been down in the order which is fine as long as Cain is in the 7-9 batting spot his production is not as big of an issue as some are making it out to be.  

There are bigger issues like the middle part of the Brewers bullpen that needs to be fixed more so than CF.  Right now the Brewers don't have the depth at relief pitching that they normally do and they are not performing outside of Gott and Hader.  Do you really trust Williams and Boxberger in the 7th and 8th inning and no Hader is not pitching multiple innings as that is not even an option anymore.

To me CF is a low hanging fruit problem and the Brewers need to improve in other areas over CF.  

While they could use another bullpen arm, and I expect that to happen before the trade deadline, I can't see how anyone can look at Cain's production and not think CF needs to be improved. 

[nate82]

1 hour ago, Robocaller said:

While they could use another bullpen arm, and I expect that to happen before the trade deadline, I can't see how anyone can look at Cain's production and not think CF needs to be improved. 

Because he is batting at the bottom of the order.  I am not sure what everyone is expecting out of the bottom of the order but nearly every single team that is competing has someone that is just horrible in their lineup.  The Cardinals have Molina, Dodgers have Turner, Blue Jays have T. Hernandez, Rays have Zunino and Walls, Yankees have Hicks and Gallo and I can keep on going for some of these.  

I just don't see CF being a need to trade assets when you are not going to get that big of an improvement.  The current option of Taylor and Cain is perfectly fine and yes that means a team competing for a playoff spot.  Once Adames and Renfroe come back CF is not an issue at all.  As long as the defense stays strong in CF offensively it is fine to have that as a black hole offensively as long as Cain is hitting 8th or 9th there is no issue.  

[brewers888]

45 minutes ago, nate82 said:

Because he is batting at the bottom of the order.  I am not sure what everyone is expecting out of the bottom of the order but nearly every single team that is competing has someone that is just horrible in their lineup.  The Cardinals have Molina, Dodgers have Turner, Blue Jays have T. Hernandez, Rays have Zunino and Walls, Yankees have Hicks and Gallo and I can keep on going for some of these.  

I just don't see CF being a need to trade assets when you are not going to get that big of an improvement.  The current option of Taylor and Cain is perfectly fine and yes that means a team competing for a playoff spot.  Once Adames and Renfroe come back CF is not an issue at all.  As long as the defense stays strong in CF offensively it is fine to have that as a black hole offensively as long as Cain is hitting 8th or 9th there is no issue.  

Not trying to improve on a guy hitting like a pitcher just because he plays good defense and hits at the bottom of the lineup makes no sense to me. No one is saying to pillage the farm system looking for a slight improvement but not even trying to replace a bat as weak as Cain is crazy. The goal is to win the World Series so just saying its not a problem having an automatic out in the lineup is counterproductive to our end goals.

[brewers888]

I don't know what Attanasio will allow financially especially after saying that we had to stretch the budget to overpay McCutchen but I could see Stearns wanting to go all in with him probably having one foot out the door on his way to New York. 

[nate82]

Just now, brewers888 said:

Not trying to improve on a guy hitting like a pitcher just because he plays good defense and hits at the bottom of the lineup makes no sense to me. No one is saying to pillage the farm system looking for a slight improvement but not even trying to replace a bat as weak as Cain is crazy. The goal is to win the World Series so just saying its not a problem having an automatic out in the lineup is counterproductive to our end goals.

But it is not.  Baseball is not just a home run derby which is what you apparently think how baseball is played.  You need players who play a high caliber of defense to win also.  You can't win with offense alone as this has been proven over and over again in the playoffs.  Teams with poor defense barely make it and mistakes in the OF doom teams every year.  So yes even if the player is an automatic out there is still value and you can win a world series with them.  The Braves won with Dansby Swanson who is mostly just on the Braves for his defense and that is about it.  

[brewers888]

1 minute ago, nate82 said:

But it is not.  Baseball is not just a home run derby which is what you apparently think how baseball is played.  You need players who play a high caliber of defense to win also.  You can't win with offense alone as this has been proven over and over again in the playoffs.  Teams with poor defense barely make it and mistakes in the OF doom teams every year.  So yes even if the player is an automatic out there is still value and you can win a world series with them.  The Braves won with Dansby Swanson who is mostly just on the Braves for his defense and that is about it.  

There is a difference between offense only players and being an automatic out like Cain is right now. If he was hitting poorly but at a somewhat respectable level we wouldn't be having this conversation but looking like Ben Sheets at the plate is completely unacceptable. 

[Robocaller]

7 hours ago, nate82 said:

Because he is batting at the bottom of the order.  I am not sure what everyone is expecting out of the bottom of the order but nearly every single team that is competing has someone that is just horrible in their lineup.  The Cardinals have Molina, Dodgers have Turner, Blue Jays have T. Hernandez, Rays have Zunino and Walls, Yankees have Hicks and Gallo and I can keep on going for some of these.  

I just don't see CF being a need to trade assets when you are not going to get that big of an improvement.  The current option of Taylor and Cain is perfectly fine and yes that means a team competing for a playoff spot.  Once Adames and Renfroe come back CF is not an issue at all.  As long as the defense stays strong in CF offensively it is fine to have that as a black hole offensively as long as Cain is hitting 8th or 9th there is no issue.  

Cain OPS+ 34, Molina  68, Turner 74, Teoscar Hernandez 37 (but he hit great as recently as last season and has missed games), Zunino 51, Walls 46, Hicks 76, Gallo 73, and a few of those guys aren't playing that much or have dealt with injuries, not an age-related decline. I wish you had gone on, because you're making the case that our worst guy is worse than all the other teams' worst guys.  Hence, something to improve. Additionally, unlike most of those teams, we don't have any elite hitters who can compensate for a weak bottom of the order.

[Robocaller]

 

6 hours ago, nate82 said:

The Braves won with Dansby Swanson who is mostly just on the Braves for his defense and that is about it.  

You really need to look at Swanson's stats, because you're very wrong.

[nate82]

11 hours ago, Robocaller said:

 

You really need to look at Swanson's stats, because you're very wrong.

Career wise Swanson has been a net negative offensively.  Recently he has been positive but it still is his defensive value that provides the majority of his value.

[Robocaller]

4 hours ago, nate82 said:

Career wise Swanson has been a net negative offensively.  Recently he has been positive but it still is his defensive value that provides the majority of his value.

I find myself unable to continue a discussion with you, for when you are faced with information that proves you wrong, you double down.
God Bless.

 

[nate82]

30 minutes ago, Robocaller said:

I find myself unable to continue a discussion with you, for when you are faced with information that proves you wrong, you double down.
God Bless.

 

Swanson has a career negative offensive WAR of -17.9 compared to a defensive WAR of 44.3.  What information did you provide? 

[Robocaller]

1 hour ago, nate82 said:

Swanson has a career negative offensive WAR of -17.9 compared to a defensive WAR of 44.3.  What information did you provide? 

I apologize for suggesting you look at the stats. Because you looked at the wrong ones. Below is an earlier quote from you (sorry, I haven't figured out how to multi-quote).

Quote

So yes even if the player is an automatic out there is still value and you can win a world series with them.  The Braves won with Dansby Swanson who is mostly just on the Braves for his defense and that is about it

Clearly you are talking about last year. Last year he had a wRC+ of 119 (and has been above 100 over the last 4 years). He didn't have a great average (.248) or OBP (.311), but the dude hit 27 HRs. He had value on offense. He mostly batted 5th and 6th for the Braves--obviously the Braves thought he had value on offense.
Clearly you didn't want to compare Swanson when he was 23 (5 years ago), sucked at hitting, and the Braves were a third place team to Cain when he's 35, has been on a decline, and the brewers have a legitimate chance for the W.S. Right? You realize those aren't comparable situations, right? In one you're developing a player, and in the other you're letting a player who is on the decline drag down the rest of your team.

You made an insupportable statement about a bunch of guys who are hitting badly on good teams, I showed they ALL hit better than Cain was, and mostly a lot better. 
So you tried to change the subject, and for some unknowable reason you picked Dansby Swanson as an example. Another bad idea.

There are reasons to want to stick with Cain a while, but suggesting he isn't that bad right now isn't one of them. His batted ball stats are worse than his standard stats (haven't looked at them for a while, but they were so abysmally bad they couldn't have improved much). He's been terrible. 

 

[nate82]

2 hours ago, Robocaller said:

You made an insupportable statement about a bunch of guys who are hitting badly on good teams, I showed they ALL hit better than Cain was, and mostly a lot better. 
So you tried to change the subject, and for some unknowable reason you picked Dansby Swanson as an example. Another bad idea.

There are reasons to want to stick with Cain a while, but suggesting he isn't that bad right now isn't one of them. His batted ball stats are worse than his standard stats (haven't looked at them for a while, but they were so abysmally bad they couldn't have improved much). He's been terrible. 

 

I changed the subject to what exactly?  My point which apparently I have to keep on repeating is that offense is not the only factor for a team.  Coming into 2021 Swanson wasn't looked at as a offensive player though he had improved which I stated previously that he has been improving but the majority of his value comes from his defense still.  Teams can and do win with players who are just abysmal on offense.  All of the players I listed are abysmal offensively some more than others.

The point was that you are not going to have 100+ ops+ players at every position and having a platoon of Taylor and Cain is perfectly fine and doesn't really need to be improved on as there are other areas that are bigger needs.  I can't keep on repeating this with every post I make.  

[Robocaller]

1 hour ago, nate82 said:

I changed the subject to what exactly?  My point which apparently I have to keep on repeating is that offense is not the only factor for a team.  Coming into 2021 Swanson wasn't looked at as a offensive player though he had improved which I stated previously that he has been improving but the majority of his value comes from his defense still.  Teams can and do win with players who are just abysmal on offense.  All of the players I listed are abysmal offensively some more than others.

The point was that you are not going to have 100+ ops+ players at every position and having a platoon of Taylor and Cain is perfectly fine and doesn't really need to be improved on as there are other areas that are bigger needs.  I can't keep on repeating this with every post I make.  

God Bless.

[Frisbee Slider]

The Brewers team OPS from CF this year is .649, which is 8th in the NL. Tyrone Taylor’s OPS in May is .809. If Taylor maintains an .800 OPS (could happen?) that would be huge offensive production from CF. Only the Mets have team OPS from CF above .800 in NL, thanks to Brandon Nimmo.

Better production from DH is more important for Brewers than pursuing an upgrade over the Taylor/Cain platoon.

No one should be happy with Cain’s bat. Interestingly, Cain raised his OPS by 62 points, yesterday. If Taylor gets more AB, our CF offense may be just fine.

[Roderick]

On 5/30/2022 at 7:16 AM, Frisbee Slider said:

The Brewers team OPS from CF this year is .649, which is 8th in the NL. Tyrone Taylor’s OPS in May is .809. If Taylor maintains an .800 OPS (could happen?) that would be huge offensive production from CF. Only the Mets have team OPS from CF above .800 in NL, thanks to Brandon Nimmo.

Better production from DH is more important for Brewers than pursuing an upgrade over the Taylor/Cain platoon.

No one should be happy with Cain’s bat. Interestingly, Cain raised his OPS by 62 points, yesterday. If Taylor gets more AB, our CF offense may be just fine.

Ditto.  Once Renfroe is back, Taylor will take up most of the CF at bats (or at least as many as Counsell will let a gritty veteran sit on the bench for).  Taylor is going to be at least close to average CF production in the NL, and maybe even better, but definitely not a black hole in the lineup.

I'm assuming by the trading deadline we will have figured out if somehow Brousseau/Hiura/McCutcheon will be enough.  But, McCutcheon 0 for last 23 at bats, I'd say it is time to give Hiura or Brousseau (I'd prefer Hiura) every day at bats (no platoon) for at least two weeks.

[jay87shot]

What about Jorge Polanco? The Twins likely want to get Royce Lewis consistent MLB AB's. Polanco hasn't been much better than Wong but we could get Polanco and then swap out Wong to another team. We might even be able to interest the Twins in Cain (if he plays a tad better) as some salary trade off.

We get Polanco for Cain, Miguel Sanchez, and Jefferson Quero (or someone like that)

Trade Wong to Angels/White Sox for 2 mid/lower tier prospects (or a decent reliever)

Maybe if we try Yeli at lead off for a while and have him focus on getting on base more than run production it could jump start him.

Yeli, Urias, Adames, Tellez, Renfrow, Taylor, Polanco, Narvaez, DH

Would Hunter Dozier interest anyone? His batting stats are solid, however I don't see him being an upgrade over Huira taking over more DH AB's

[Robocaller]

44 minutes ago, jay87shot said:

What about Jorge Polanco? The Twins likely want to get Royce Lewis consistent MLB AB's. Polanco hasn't been much better than Wong but we could get Polanco and then swap out Wong to another team. We might even be able to interest the Twins in Cain (if he plays a tad better) as some salary trade off.

We get Polanco for Cain, Miguel Sanchez, and Jefferson Quero (or someone like that)

Trade Wong to Angels/White Sox for 2 mid/lower tier prospects (or a decent reliever)

Maybe if we try Yeli at lead off for a while and have him focus on getting on base more than run production it could jump start him.

Yeli, Urias, Adames, Tellez, Renfrow, Taylor, Polanco, Narvaez, DH

Would Hunter Dozier interest anyone? His batting stats are solid, however I don't see him being an upgrade over Huira taking over more DH AB's

If you can guarantee Polanco will start hitting HRs like he did in 2021 and 2019, this seems like a good idea. If it's only a lateral move from Wong, at the cost of a useable bullpen arm and a promising catching prospect, it's not so good. 
IMO, Wong isn't doing so badly that you have to look for ways to replace him.

[owbc]

The Mariners have too many outfielders and need relief pitching. They are going to have a logjam when Mitch Haniger comes back from his injury. 
 

I don’t know who Jerry Dipoto is going to want to move but we should try and pick up the odd man out. Similar to getting Willy Adames at the right time. 
 

Kelenic would be first on my list, has struggled in the majors but is 22 with a high ceiling and from Wisconsin. Currently tearing it up in AAA. Not sure if Dipoto would move him but the price wouldn’t be cheap. 
 

Kyle Lewis was crushing the ball in his brief return from the DL, but isn’t 100% and can’t help on defense in the short term. Probably not getting traded at this time. 
 

Taylor Trammell doesn’t have as high of a ceiling as the others but is playing well lately and is only 24. He might be had for a reliever. 
 

And there’s Jesse Winker. Off to a terrible start in 2022, but playing better of late. More of a LF than a CF but a juicy option to buy low. 

[Robocaller]

How about Enrique Hernandez as a buy low candidate for (mostly) CF?  He's only hitting .203, but should improve upon that going forward.

[nate82]

I wonder if the Brewers and Yankees could swing a deal where the Brewers get out from Cain and the Yankees get out from Gallo.  I think the Brewers would have to send back a prospect in this deal but something like Cain and Gray for Gallo would be something that would help the Brewers.  

Yelich would then be moved into a platoon with McCutchen at DH with Gallo taking over in RF and moving Renfroe over to LF.  Starting OF would be Renfroe, Taylor and Gallo.  The Yankees would get out of the mess that is Gallo and the Brewers would get some salary relief.  May have to give up something more than Gray maybe the Brewers competitive balance pick in 2023 or something like that.  

Another possible trade could be with the Orioles where the Brewers could add bullpen depth and a DH.

Brewers get: Mancini and Jorge Lopez

Orioles get: Garcia (SS), Gray (OF), Erceg (RHP) and Lazar (RHP)

Lopez would fill in the bullpen as the 6th or 7th inning piece and Mancini would fill in at DH, 1B or LF.  Mancini currently has a slash line of .305/.377/.437.  This would be the offensive improvement the Brewers would need at DH and LF that they are currently missing.  

Another option would be Bohm with the Phillies but I think that maybe more of an off season trade.  Something like Lauer and Frelick for Bohm.  

I believe the Brewers will go after someone like Mancini or Bell and a relief pitcher or two.  There still doesn't look like there is a star type player who will be on the market.  Maybe if the Red Sox go on a losing streak you could see Bogaerts become available but that would be it.  

[wntrtxn21]

1 hour ago, nate82 said:

I wonder if the Brewers and Yankees could swing a deal where the Brewers get out from Cain and the Yankees get out from Gallo.  I think the Brewers would have to send back a prospect in this deal but something like Cain and Gray for Gallo would be something that would help the Brewers.  

Yelich would then be moved into a platoon with McCutchen at DH with Gallo taking over in RF and moving Renfroe over to LF.  Starting OF would be Renfroe, Taylor and Gallo.  The Yankees would get out of the mess that is Gallo and the Brewers would get some salary relief.  May have to give up something more than Gray maybe the Brewers competitive balance pick in 2023 or something like that.  

 

 

Is this the same Gallo who is hitting .176/.247 and strikingout almost 40% of his PAs? The Brewers have plenty of high whiff guys who are under achieving. They don't need Gallo especially if it means losing a prospect or a pick.  Now the deal with the O's I think Stearns would jump on immediately. A definite upgrade over Hiura and some pen help for low level prospects.  Bohm's immaturity bothers me.  He doesn't have a lot of power for a 3B, but it would allow Urias to go to 2B. I think I'd set my sight a little higher, but not rule him out.