Electric Vehicles

[Fear The Chorizo]

Hell, gas tanks only get ~350 miles.  EV's aren't far behind that.  

An ICE vehicle's range is entirely dependent on the size of its gas tank and not on a battery that takes much longer to recharge in order to regain its full travel range - throw a pair of jerry cans in the back of your pickup and suddenly that range doubles.  Plus if you drive a car 349 miles and show up at a gas station on fumes, 5 minutes later you can completely reset its range to 350 miles after filling up.  An EV simply can't and won't ever be able to offer that level of convenience no matter how many charging stations pop up - particularly in rural areas that often require vehicles with significant towing or storage capacity, or for people living in urban areas that don't have the means or real estate room to have their own secure charging station. 

However, that's not saying EVs aren't a good option for anybody to have.  EVs can supplement the overall auto fleet in the US and serve that sought after niche as a suburban around-town errand runner for those who can afford its higher upfront cost along with having reliable and private charging capabilities.  That's maybe 15% of the population in the US, but it's a far lower percentage across the rest of the world. I think EVs make up roughly 5% of the US personal vehicle fleet at present, so 15% would be tripling it existing market share in this country - and I think that's a realistic ceiling for this type of technology.  EVs are simply not the answer to replacing the ICE on a worldwide scale, particularly if people are looking for ways to improve the environment. 

One exception is Norway (population a bit smaller than WI).  To dramatically increase their country's use of EVs, Norway has taxed the crap out of any ICE cars (sales, gas, maintenance, basically everything gets taxed at very high levels) while foregoing any taxes on EV sales/maintenance/charging cost as a way to make them cost competitive and disincentivize ICE cars - at least up until recently as they've had to scrap the EV sales tax exemption because they've blown too big a hole in their fiscal budget.  The primary funding mechanism that has made this even sort of a reality in Norway is, of course, the enormous amount of money they collect in royalties from oil exports - which is a huge part of their economy and the only reason they're among the wealthiest nations on a GDP per capita basis.  So Norway can say they're very clean domestically in terms of vehicle emissions - but all the oil that gets pumped out of their seafloor and shipped elsewhere to be guzzled that actually funds this endeavor still winds up churning out CO2 on the same planet Norway is on.

 

 

[homer]

10 hours ago, Fear The Chorizo said:

An EV simply can't and won't ever be able to offer that level of convenience

I would be willing to put money on that. Forever is a mighty long time and markets are pretty powerful forces.

As it stands today, the Ford Lightning can tow 10,000 lbs. Having a max load probably reduces range quite a bit but that's today. In five or ten years? Who knows.

https://www.kbb.com/car-news/ford-f-150-lightning-can-tow-10k-lbs-in-any-weather/

 

[owbc]

On 7/25/2022 at 8:49 AM, Brock Beauchamp said:

Before anyone writes off an EV, I implore them to go find a model they like and test drive it. I can't see myself buying another ICE vehicle again unless it's another classic car. EVs are faster, smoother, and quieter than the equivalent ICE vehicle. From a daily driver standpoint, EVs are just better.

And I say this as someone who is an avid motorcyclist and loves the sound and feel of a performance ICE vehicle. But EVs are just better driving if I'm going from point A to point B, which is 90% of my driving.

Yep, it's weird to go back into an ICE vehicle and press the gas pedal and wonder why it takes forever for the vehicle to respond. Or why they handle so poorly because they are top heavy and there is no power in the rear wheels. Or why you have to press the brakes so hard to make them stop. 

And them I'm like...uhh...I have to go to a special store to buy gas??? And take it to a shop every 5,000 miles to change the oil? 

They are literal pieces of junk compared with EVs.

As soon as the price is equivalent, which will happen in the next 5-10 years or sooner, the EVs will fly off the shelves.

Then 5-10 years after that we'll see 75%+ of gas stations closing due to lack of demand. The people left with ICE vehicles will have to drive 10-20 minutes out of their way to get gas while the supercharging stations will be everywhere. So it will actually be faster to supercharge than refill with gas. 
 

[Brock Beauchamp]

2 hours ago, homer said:

I would be willing to put money on that. Forever is a mighty long time and markets are pretty powerful forces.

As it stands today, the Ford Lightning can tow 10,000 lbs. Having a max load probably reduces range quite a bit but that's today. In five or ten years? Who knows.

https://www.kbb.com/car-news/ford-f-150-lightning-can-tow-10k-lbs-in-any-weather/

Mercedes just built a one-off proof of concept car that can get 750 miles on a single charge.

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2022/07/we-test-an-electric-mercedes-that-can-can-go-747-miles-on-a-single-charge/

[LouisEly]

The other thing that is being developed is Battery-as-a-Service.  Nio, the Chinese EV company, has developed a battery swapping service similar to an oil change that takes 3-5 minutes to change out a bettery, about the same time it takes to fill a gas tank.  Because the battery is leased, you don't purchase it with the vehicle, reducing the cost of the vehicle by up to $10K.  It's not likely to get widespread usage, but it's an interesting technology that's available if needed.

I would also be shocked if chain restaurants located just off of freeways aren't looking into adding charging stations in their parking lot.  If people need to charge, they can do it while getting lunch or dinner which they would stop for anyway.

[thebruce44]

On 7/23/2022 at 11:09 AM, GAME05 said:

Middleton to Milwaukee is 184 miles round-trip, so if you take your EV I guess you just cross your fingers you don't get stuck in traffic. And it takes 10 hours to fully charge a Tesla at a charging station, or a whopping 3 miles of range per hour that you charge it from a regular outlet--so even staying overnight at grandma's house won't get you back home unless you unplug her dryer and run a dropcord from there. Certainly the vast majority of our trips are local, but we're also deciding on a whim to go on weekend trips or a ballgame, too. And last time I rented a car for a week it was sure more than $100.

Just wanted to chime into some of the comments I am seeing as I'm currently connected to this field. First off, Level 3 direct current fast chargers can typically get a vehicle to 80% in 20 minutes. When traveling across the country, this type of fill up is the method people use. The charging network companies (Volta, Electrify America, EVgo) have a lot of data to support this.

Someone also mentioned placing the chargers at chain restaurants. This strategy is already in place. I've mostly seen agreements with grocery stores, banks, and convenience stores, but quick service restaurants make a lot of sense too.

In the next 3 years, the big buildout will be coming to offer EV stalls at side of the highway gas stations and truck stops.

Even with me being in the industry, I don't yet have an EV, so I can't weigh in on the convenience, or lack there of, on longer travel. It is my understanding that taking a 20 minute break every 250 miles is a trade off most people accept over having to drive an ICE vehicle long distances.

[LouisEly]

Plus if you drive a car 349 miles and show up at a gas station on fumes, 5 minutes later you can completely reset its range to 350 miles after filling up.

Correct, but my point is how often do you need that?  How often to you drive more than 200 miles in a trip? For most people, maybe 2-3 times a year?  And what % of the total mileage/gas in a year does that encompass?  10%?  And if you're spending $4-5K/year on gas, won't the gas savings pay for a few rental cars and then some?

particularly in rural areas that often require vehicles with significant towing or storage capacity, or for people living in urban areas that don't have the means or real estate room to have their own secure charging station. 

1) In rural areas aren't gas stations fewer and further between?  Don't people have to go out of their way to get gas?  Wouldn't it be much more convenient to have your own "gas station" at home instead of driving "into town" to get gas?

B) I live in an urban area.  Almost every parking ramp that I go into has EV charging stations; if it doesn't, there is one within a block or two that has one that people can park at instead.  Residences (apartments and condos) know they have to have them to attract tenants. I would bet that the parking lot/ramp for every major corporate headquarters has charging stations.  And in urban areas you don't have to travel very far to get where you are going, making a charge last weeks.  (Gas is also more expensive in urban areas.  It's $5.79/gal in my neighborhood as of yesterday.)  I see plenty of people parking EVs on the street or in the parking area in the alley with no charging station because they can charge at work or at the ramp they park at when they go out to dinner or shopping somewhere.

[igor67]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the pick-ups as generators feature. I haven't gone so far as getting quotes, but standard pick-up plus installed gas generator may well be more expensive of an initial investment than just getting an EV. I'm not quite ready to jump in just yet, but it's a pretty good value if your looking at a truck anyway.

The potential for large scale adoption to alter the peak draw times for electricity is pretty real, but I would think one could solve a lot of that with some pretty simple software in the at home chargers to just automatically wait to start charging so I don't really see that is any kind of major obstacle. I do know from the monthly electrical co-op magazine that the WI electrical co-ops have already installed charging stations in very rural locations so it wouldn't be an issue for me going to my cabin in the middle of Mennonite country, so it seems like access is being addressed. I will say I was surprised that more of the travel plaza's along I94 haven't already gotten farther ahead on getting chargers installed or even the sit down restaurants it seemed pretty clear to me a few years ago that getting those installed would be good money makers to draw people in for that somewhat longer wait time.

[pitchleague]

Here’s another EV question that I haven’t seen answered, even in articles I have read:  how quiet is the cabin, compared to an ICE vehicle, while driving on various roads?  Is it just as noisy or are they more sound-proofed (ish)?

 

[Brock Beauchamp]

10 hours ago, pitchleague said:

Here’s another EV question that I haven’t seen answered, even in articles I have read:  how quiet is the cabin, compared to an ICE vehicle, while driving on various roads?  Is it just as noisy or are they more sound-proofed (ish)?

EVs are WAY quieter than ICE vehicles. The only sound is wind and the tires on the road. If you slam the pedal down, there's an audible whine/whistle but other than that, the power plant is completely silent.

When you first ride/drive an EV, it's kind of eery.

Also, no vibration in an EV. Another way it's eery, especially at speed on a smooth road.

[homer]

There are a few solar EV chargers out there. If they could ever improve those to the point where a full charge takes less than 5 minutes then it's game over. Actually, game over would be some kind of solar panel on the roof of the car that continually gave you juice.

[igor67]

It would be game over homer, but based on how much power consumption it takes to move a vehicle I don't believe even 100% efficient panels can generate enough to keep a car going continuously. I have seen some designs that do add panels to increase range.

[homer]

1 hour ago, igor67 said:

It would be game over homer, but based on how much power consumption it takes to move a vehicle I don't believe even 100% efficient panels can generate enough to keep a car going continuously. I have seen some designs that do add panels to increase range.

Yeah I doubt I'll see a solar powered car in my lifetime (outside of the concept cars you see every once in a while). But extending range seems possible. Kind of like "topping off" at the pump.

[Fear The Chorizo]

8 hours ago, homer said:

Yeah I doubt I'll see a solar powered car in my lifetime (outside of the concept cars you see every once in a while). But extending range seems possible. Kind of like "topping off" at the pump.

How familiar are you with the solar panel and battery manufacturing processes, from the point of pulling raw materials out of the ground, to manufacturing these components, to the issues with manufacturing waste biproducts and end of use waste from the spent components themselves?  Scaling those processes anywhere close to what it would take worldwide and expand solar and EVs to the point you're proposing would be devastating to the environment - particularly in developing countries and places where the vast majority of these materials are mined and manufactured without anywhere near the environmentally-protective regulatory controls the US has at present. 

Maybe if we add a wind turbine to the top of the car it'll make it drive forever, too...

 

[Fear The Chorizo]

1) In rural areas aren't gas stations fewer and further between?  Don't people have to go out of their way to get gas?  Wouldn't it be much more convenient to have your own "gas station" at home instead of driving "into town" to get gas?

I take it you've never actually lived in a rural area - if you did you'd understand that people have to go out of their way to get just about anything, and they tend to plan errand trips into town to take care of multiple tasks to be as efficient as possible....including filling up the tank on the way home.  People don't just mindlessly drive 30 miles into town to get gas and drive home for no reason, so it really isn't "out of their way" at all.

 

[LouisEly]

5 minutes ago, Fear The Chorizo said:

1) In rural areas aren't gas stations fewer and further between?  Don't people have to go out of their way to get gas?  Wouldn't it be much more convenient to have your own "gas station" at home instead of driving "into town" to get gas?

I take it you've never actually lived in a rural area - if you did you'd understand that people have to go out of their way to get just about anything, and they tend to plan errand trips into town to take care of multiple tasks to be as efficient as possible....including filling up the tank on the way home.  People don't just mindlessly drive 30 miles into town to get gas and drive home for no reason, so it really isn't "out of their way" at all.

 

I grew up in one, my grandparents lived on a farm, and my parents live in an unincorporated community, thank you.  And it's one more thing they have to worry about and take time to do instead of being at home.

[LouisEly]

8 hours ago, homer said:

Yeah I doubt I'll see a solar powered car in my lifetime (outside of the concept cars you see every once in a while). But extending range seems possible. Kind of like "topping off" at the pump.

Fisker is a step ahead of you

[wallus]

I've owned an EV for about a year and a half and here are the pros and cons

Pro

No more gas stations

Cheap

Fast

Quiet

Cons

Range decreases in cold weather

Not enough charging stations yet

[homer]

14 hours ago, Fear The Chorizo said:

 

Maybe if we add a wind turbine to the top of the car it'll make it drive forever, too...

 

Wind Powered Cars

[Brock Beauchamp]

One aspect of EVs people don’t talk about enough is increased reliability and decreased maintenance. Once EVs mature, they’ll be far more reliable than an ICE vehicle because there is only a fraction of the moving parts.

Second, they’re close to zero maintenance. No oil to change and even the brakes last way longer, as the electric motor does a lot of the braking instead of the rotors. 

[Brock Beauchamp]

14 hours ago, Fear The Chorizo said:

How familiar are you with the solar panel and battery manufacturing processes, from the point of pulling raw materials out of the ground, to manufacturing these components, to the issues with manufacturing waste biproducts and end of use waste from the spent components themselves?  Scaling those processes anywhere close to what it would take worldwide and expand solar and EVs to the point you're proposing would be devastating to the environment - particularly in developing countries and places where the vast majority of these materials are mined and manufactured without anywhere near the environmentally-protective regulatory controls the US has at present. 

Maybe if we add a wind turbine to the top of the car it'll make it drive forever, too...

 

Using current technology, yes. But there are several varieties of batteries in development right now that are both more energy dense and far less damaging from a raw mineral aspect.

Let’s not allow perfect to be the enemy of good in this situation. There are downsides to EVs right now - but they’re still overall a net benefit over ICE - and we’re just getting started. The first “real” EV hit the road just a decade ago when the Model. S released. We’re in the bottom of the first inning, there’s a lot left to play. 

[LouisEly]

6 minutes ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

Let’s not allow perfect to be the enemy of good in this situation.

It's amazing how many people can't grasp this in so many aspects of life...

[GreatNWwi]

On 7/26/2022 at 8:50 AM, homer said:

I would be willing to put money on that. Forever is a mighty long time and markets are pretty powerful forces.

As it stands today, the Ford Lightning can tow 10,000 lbs. Having a max load probably reduces range quite a bit but that's today. In five or ten years? Who knows.

https://www.kbb.com/car-news/ford-f-150-lightning-can-tow-10k-lbs-in-any-weather/

 

Towing is not in the ballgame yet due to current technology.

TFL tested the Ford Lightning with a 7500 lb camper and it made it 86 miles before it had to be charged.  The Tesla semi has been on hold for years because current battery technology requires a battery so large it consumes something like 25% of payload to get the range needed for OTR trucking.  There needs to be a step change in battery technology to handle towing situations.  There are some promising developments but each option has it's own drawbacks at this time.

As far as rentals having charging stations, maybe high end rentals will but my daughter can't even get grounded outlets installed in her apartment.

 

[GreatNWwi]

On 7/26/2022 at 8:14 PM, igor67 said:

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the pick-ups as generators feature.

If it is not cost prohibitive, go for it.  However, most discussion I have seen on this topic is that it is cheaper and more practical to buy a regular truck, either gas or electric, and a Honda generator.  If you rely on a truck for a generator you will soon find that you need to choose between keeping something powered up vs running into town for any reason.

[Samurai Bucky]

14 hours ago, wallus said:

I've owned an EV for about a year and a half and here are the pros and cons

Pro

No more gas stations

Cheap

Fast

Quiet

Cons

Range decreases in cold weather

Not enough charging stations yet

Some follow up questions I was hoping you could answer:

• Did you have any additional hardware installed at home to charge your vehicle?
• If so, how much did it cost to install and what are the specs (I saw that "Level 3" is typically used only for commercial entities)?
• What is your average drive (20 miles a day, etc.)?
• What is the longest trip you took with your car?  How long did you have to wait to "recharge" during the trip?

We have a cabin up north -- way up north.  If it costs a large sum of money to put in a charging station at home and up north, that doesn't make sense for me.  Likewise, if I travel a few hours to my parents' house in a small town, will I have to find a charging station somewhere so I can charge it while I visit them?  If I "run out of a charge" on the road, do I need to get towed to the nearest charging station, or does AAA have a big truck that can give me enough juice to get to the nearest charging station?

I see EV in my future at some point, but I'm not ready to pull the trigger, yet.