mark mathias & antoine kelly to texas for matt bush

[AdvantageSchneider]

I'm never going to cheer for him, even if he gets the final outs in game 7 of a World Series win for the Brewers.  

That being said I'd rather win with some not so nice guys than lose with a bunch of choir boys.

Normally have multiple years of control is a good thing.  Here not so much.  I hope he pitches well while he is here.  I won't miss him when he is gone.  

Do you think the team will sell Bush t-shersies in the clubhouse store??  Maybe give him #31 so people can pretend they are wearing Dave Bush instead.

[Robocaller]

Two things.
Losing Antoine Kelly is a bad thing. He was far enough away that he wasn't a sure thing, but he wasn't just some guy with no results. He was selected to the Futures Game this season and his upside was as a #2 starter, something that is rare in our system. I consider him an overpay, even though we'll have Bush for a couple of years.

Humans are imperfect. We've all erred. I'd guess that most of us have driven while over the legal limit. Most of us are not alcoholics. Redemption is a center point for most religions for a reason.  Rise above your base inclinations.

[Robocaller]

3 hours ago, MoreTrife said:

I can't believe a 36 year old is throwing 97. 

a 5'9" 36-year old.

 

[Lathund]

An unusual trades in some ways. I wouldn't really look at Bush's age the same way I normally would. He didn't convert to pitching until 21, and with all the off the field issues is actually at below 300 career innings pitched. His arm is way younger than a normal 36 year old pitchers. Anything can happen, but it's a better chance that he'll be productive for all 3 years than it would seem on the surface. And he is pitching really well. 

As for said off the field issues: He is an alcoholic and every incident with him seems to have been related to that. I don't know anything about what kind of person he really is, but the Rangers fans seem to all say he's staying out of trouble and has changed. It really is an ugly history he has, and has hurt or otherwise impacted a lot of people. But he has also served 4 years in prison, and has seemingly adressed the root cause of his issues, namely that he is now completely sober. I'm willing to at least give people who have paid for their actions and have made efforts to change, a chance. I also have alcoholics in my family, and I encounter it a lot in my field of work (Psychiatry), I know what effects it (And other addictions) have on people. 

Anyway, back to the trade itself. Bush has been pretty great this year, Throws 3 pitches, doesn't have much in the way of platoon splits, statcast page looks great. 2½ years of that is going to cost something. 

I actually quite like Mathias, and I wouldn't have minded him in the utility role (Or the 1st man up) next year, he has raked in AAA and I think some of it could translate to MLB if given time. But he's also 28, and wouldn't really get that time here, and with Brice Turang knocking on the door too, it makes sense to include him in the trade. Rangers have Semien & Seager in the middle infield but not much behind them, so hopefully he can find himself a bigger role there. Wish him all the best. 

Kelly is one I'm going back and forth about. On the one hand, he has some electric stuff giving him some serious upside. On the other hand though, he's sufficiently wild that it just screams bullpen to me. Then there's the TOS surgery; he is back and his velo is back, so looks like he avoided the worst of it, but it does worry me still. And on top of that there's his rule 5 status. He's good enough to warrant adding to the roster, but he is also quite a way away from the majors. Is it worth using a roster spot on him for likely no return in 2023 and 2024 if you think he's ultimately a reliever? 

So I'm a little on the fence still, but I think ultimately I'm OK with it even if the price is in the upper bounds of what I'd be comfortable with. 

[torts]

6 hours ago, AdvantageSchneider said:

I'm never going to cheer for him, even if he gets the final outs in game 7 of a World Series win for the Brewers.  

That being said I'd rather win with some not so nice guys than lose with a bunch of choir boys.

Normally have multiple years of control is a good thing.  Here not so much.  I hope he pitches well while he is here.  I won't miss him when he is gone.  

Do you think the team will sell Bush t-shersies in the clubhouse store??  Maybe give him #31 so people can pretend they are wearing Dave Bush instead.

they sold KRod shirts, and people had no problem supporting him.  

[Outlander]

I honestly never saw anybody with a K-Rod shirt and it is an embarrassment he ever pitched for the Brewers after his woman beating incident but he will be in attendance this weekend to accept his Wall of Honor induction so the organization doesn't appear to have a problem with him. I guess Bush served his time and the victim did forgive him but still living with the effects of getting his head run over by a drunk Bush.

[MrTPlush]

9 hours ago, Jopal78 said:

Average Joe goes to prison for a violent felony, he’ll struggle to get a job after and be ostracized. But throw a baseball 97 mph, and we’ll cheer for you because you paid your dues.

Maybe we should cheer for average joes that turn their lives around and make sure they get their fair chance after serving their time? Lift everyone up...not be miserable because a baseball player has a good recovery story. 

Also, DUI causing injury isn't a violent crime/felony.

[patrickgpe]

Late to the party since I was asleep when this went down. I kind of get the idea though without reading everyone's post. 

I don't think its a great trade, but I'm not watching Kelly play daily. If Stearns valued Kelly as a prospect he would have worked through the rule V thing. I doubt anyone would have taken him and stashed him in 2023. Stearns clearly doesn't value him as much as some here. 

As far as the off the field stuff, we don't know these players. I would love a team of choir boys. But we don't know ANYONE on this team . Their family history. Their personal drama. I try to focus on what they do on the field, because I know that atleast. 

[Jopal78]

40 minutes ago, MrTPlush said:

. 

Also, DUI causing injury isn't a violent crime/felony.

Reckless battery? Recognized in many jurisdictions as a felony. I guess it depends what the charges were. I can tell you that Bush took a longer prison sentence so he could emerge without probation as opposed to a shorter prison term and probation. Why? Because he wouldn’t be able to travel on baseball road trips if on probation. Even before he went to the can he knew someone would give him another shot at baseball. A real class act.

It’s not my team, so who cares; but it does render their marketing as a family event rather ironic with a violent felon on the team.

[Outlander]

10 hours ago, ny_chez said:

I’m looking forward to hearing more about Bush’s story.  He’s 5 foot 9, was a number 1 overall pick, started his minor league career with 800 at bats before being converted to a pitcher, and played 12 years in the minors before making it to the majors.  He’s 36 and has 2.5 years of control left!

Probably not the feel good story you were looking for after reading subsequent posts.

[Playing Catch]

In a baseball vacuum, I think this trade looks fair in terms of baseball ability. Clearly the metrics demonstrate Bush's electric stuff. Multiple years. Okay, sure give them Kelly.

But I don't like it. He's 36 with lots of injury history and brings a very negative criminal history. While I don't care to discuss it, this is an entertainment industry where image matters. While I applaud redemption stories, I think it is fair to criticize an organization for not valuing that image.

I was really thinking Kelly was going to be the sweetener in a bigger deal for a bat.

[LouisEly]

9 hours ago, Eye Black said:

The reason I can’t bring myself to write off Antoine Kelly’s future outlook is he was still less than two years removed from surgery for Thoracic Outlet Syndrome which is notoriously difficult to come back from. I do think he has the tools to be a good high leverage reliever down the road. 

Let's not ignore that surgery.  Kelly carries injury risk with a surgery that is often unsuccessful.  Not sure what the career lifespan is for those who do have that surgery, but it does carry added risk.

Remember, risk has to be discounted and Kelly carries both injury risk and developmental risk (he has yet to prove himself above A-ball). 

[KeithStone53151]

Jeez holy cow can we stick to baseball and not being self-righteous weinies on a brewer fan site geared towards talking baseball. My goodness 4 pages and 3 of them are nothing but virtue signaling.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

2 minutes ago, KeithStone53151 said:

Jeez holy cow can we stick to baseball and not being self-righteous weinies on a brewer fan site geared towards talking baseball. My goodness 4 pages and 3 of them are nothing but virtue signaling.

To be fair, it's basically one guy repeating himself ...

[jw5511986]

17 minutes ago, Jopal78 said:

Reckless battery? Recognized in many jurisdictions as a felony. I guess it depends what the charges were. I can tell you that Bush took a longer prison sentence so he could emerge without probation as opposed to a shorter prison term and probation. Why? Because he wouldn’t be able to travel on baseball road trips if on probation. Even before he went to the can he knew someone would give him another shot at baseball. A real class act.

It’s not my team, so who cares but it does render their marketing as a family event rather ironic with a violent felony on the team.

Not excusing Bush's past but if that's your line on irony, there's probably no team in professional sports that could credibly be considered a family event. Don't mistake a lack of public knowledge for a clean slate.

[Austin Tatious]

With all due respect to the folks that only want to talk about his  baseball performance, you cannot separate a person from the player.  The Brewers are a business and, like all businesses, they are subject to their consumers holding them to certain standards.  Baseball players are not robots wearing your favorite laundry.  There are a fair number of fans who pay very close attention to the images of the guys who they root for.  It is 100% part of the discussion of the acquisition.  

Now if you are in the camp that this is a redemption story, fair enough, but the topic is completely fair.  Ignoring it as part of the story is putting your head in the sand.  

As for us not knowing any of the players, that may be true but we also know of criminal behavior because it’s public record.  If a player does not have a criminal record, there is no reason for a fan to lump him in with someone who does by dismissing it as “we don’t know any of them.”   If someone is found to have atrocious behavior that we find out about, that’s a different story,  

Players and teams need to understand who pays the bills, and it’s the consumers, i.e., the fans,  Fans pay attention to who is on the team and it’s not just about how hard you pitch.  The consumer needs to be satisfied and all businesses need happy customers.  The customer can hold a business’ feet to the fire,  It is how the market works.  

[Austin Tatious]

9 minutes ago, KeithStone53151 said:

Jeez holy cow can we stick to baseball and not being self-righteous weinies on a brewer fan site geared towards talking baseball. My goodness 4 pages and 3 of them are nothing but virtue signaling.

That’s fine.  You  don’t give a crap.  That’s your right.   Other people care.  It’s part of who he is and you’re in no position to dictate to other people how they should feel.  

[StearnsFTW]

7 hours ago, AdvantageSchneider said:

I'm never going to cheer for him, even if he gets the final outs in game 7 of a World Series win for the Brewers.  

That being said I'd rather win with some not so nice guys than lose with a bunch of choir boys.

Normally have multiple years of control is a good thing.  Here not so much.  I hope he pitches well while he is here.  I won't miss him when he is gone.  

Do you think the team will sell Bush t-shersies in the clubhouse store??  Maybe give him #31 so people can pretend they are wearing Dave Bush instead.

Sorry, this cracks me up.  You sitting on your couch stone-faced as Matt Bush wins the World Series for the Brewers.

I understand your point, but that image just tickled me.

 

As far as I'm concerned, I don't care much in the context of whether or not I"ll root for him.  He's a Brewer.  I'm rooting for him.  I stomached K-Rod, I can stomach this guy.  To each their own though obviously.

 

[KeithStone53151]

5 minutes ago, Austin Tatious said:

That’s fine.  You  don’t give a crap.  That’s your right.   Other people care.  It’s part of who he is and you’re in no position to dictate to other people how they should feel.  

I don't understand the purpose. Your post above pushes a lot of political and other boundaries that aren't allowed on this site. The purpose of this forum is brewers/baseball. You and Jopal aren't better humans than everyone else on this site because you get all mad that the Brewers traded for a guy with a criminal past. I strongly believe that most on here don't care for that crap and want to stick to a baseball discussion...which is again the purpose of the site.

[sveumrules]

Kelly was probably thee highest ceiling pitcher in the system, so hurts to deal him for sure.

At the same time there was the injury risk, the command struggles leading to a likely reliever outcome, the impending 40 man decision, we just got Gasser.

That’s a lot of mitigating circumstances.

I would have hoped if Antoine was traded it was for someone with team control beyond this season, so we got that at least. Though a 36 year old reliever with a short track record of MLB success wasn’t quite what I had in mind.

Guess I’ll hope that Bush’s past struggles help give him the resolve needed to get big outs during a postseason run & a couple two tree years from now that Antoine Kelly is striking out MLB hitters for the Rangers or whomsoever.

[igor67]

It's been only briefly mentioned, but Kelley needing to be added to the 40-man this offseason is probably a huge part of the value consideration here. Even with the pitching lab how many A+ ballers with control issues at his age go onto figure it out within those option years? And then there is the competition with other players for those 40 man spots that ensues.

[Jopal78]

10 minutes ago, KeithStone53151 said:

I don't understand the purpose. Your post above pushes a lot of political and other boundaries that aren't allowed on this site. The purpose of this forum is brewers/baseball. You and Jopal aren't better humans than everyone else on this site because you get all mad that the Brewers traded for a guy with a criminal past. I strongly believe that most on here don't care for that crap and want to stick to a baseball discussion...which is again the purpose of the site.

Like I said, it's not my team they can do what they want, I don't have to like it.

But it speaks to what type of organization they are  when they purposefully acquired somebody with a lengthy rap sheet whom three other clubs SD, TOR and TB decided wasn't a good enough human to play for them.

That's all I have to say about it. 

Fun Fact: It was Matt Bush intentionally plunking Jose Bautista that lead to the famous brawl were Rougned Odor clocked Bautista in the face. 

[MrTPlush]

33 minutes ago, Jopal78 said:

Reckless battery? Recognized in many jurisdictions as a felony. I guess it depends what the charges were. I can tell you that Bush took a longer prison sentence so he could emerge without probation as opposed to a shorter prison term and probation. Why? Because he wouldn’t be able to travel on baseball road trips if on probation. Even before he went to the can he knew someone would give him another shot at baseball. A real class act.

It’s not my team, so who cares; but it does render their marketing as a family event rather ironic with a violent felon on the team.

It is a felony...but not a violent felony. He could have killed someone and it still wouldn't be a violent crime. He didn't head out to intentionally hurt someone...therefor not a violent crime in nature. I mean, it really doesn't change the reality of what happened, it just doesn't make it correct to glorify his wrongdoing with words like violent. 

Anyway, from a baseball standpoint I like the trade. Kelly is a good prospect...but has quite a few warts. He is very tall and has a goofy delivery. There is a really good chance he never harnesses the control to be a decent MLB player, let alone something special. Then you have the surgery issue to come back from. Honestly, guys like Kelley usually end up marginal and inconsistent bullpen arms.

 

He could be special, but there is a lot of reasons he probably won't be. Considering he is years away I am not too worried about losing him. This is just the reality of being a consistent contender. You have intriguing players that close in on Rule 5 eligibility and you simply have to trade them while you have a bit of leverage to get some value. When we were rebuilding we benefitted from being able to grab guys like Kelly from competing teams. 

[monty57]

A short while back in a different thread, someone posted that the Brewers are going to have a lot of 40-man/Rule 5 decisions to make this offseason. Kelly is talented, which is why the Rangers wanted him, but the Brewers can't use too many of their 40-man spots on promising prospects who are a few years away from the majors. I would guess that was a big reason they were willing to part with Kelly, and may have some other guys today that they are willing to trade away. 

Our current bullpen is certainly strengthened by the trade. Pitching is a strength of this team, but we have still had 115 innings (about 13% of our total innings) pitched by guys with a FIP over 5 and a negative WAR total. Plus, we no longer have Hader, so another "back of the bullpen" arm is welcomed. 36 is old for baseball, but hopefully he holds up and can help out for a couple more years.

So, with some alleviation of a potential 40-man roster crunch and maybe an extra game or two won because we're using a good reliever instead of a bad one, I'm fine with the trade.

[Austin Tatious]

14 minutes ago, KeithStone53151 said:

I don't understand the purpose. Your post above pushes a lot of political and other boundaries that aren't allowed on this site. The purpose of this forum is brewers/baseball. You and Jopal aren't better humans than everyone else on this site because you get all mad that the Brewers traded for a guy with a criminal past. I strongly believe that most on here don't care for that crap and want to stick to a baseball discussion...which is again the purpose of the site.

My post was neutral and apolitical.  It’s saying it’s part of business.  Which is true.  I totally accepted that one view is redemption.  .