Too Early 2023 Ideas (or beyond)

[mtsportsfan]

As I'm looking at these trades and you guys know more about opposing teams players ( major and minor)than I do,  but it seems that a lot of trades are with in our own division with direct competition for the play offs,  unless we are saying that we are doing a total rebuild and not a play off team , why not get the best package from a AL team. We basically helped the Padres acquire Soto and Drury  and to one of the play off spots.

[sveumrules]

3 hours ago, beekay414 said:

Regardless. The point remains. Would you rather cash in on Adames alone or attach Yelich to him? Or would you wait to attach Yelich to Burnes/Woody when we inevitably move off them? Or just eat it and deal with him for the next 7 years?

Yelich has a full No Trade Clause & his contract is about 150 million underwater.

He isn’t going anywhere.

His last guaranteed year is 2028 though, so only six more years.

[nate82]

4 hours ago, beekay414 said:

Regardless. The point remains. Would you rather cash in on Adames alone or attach Yelich to him? Or would you wait to attach Yelich to Burnes/Woody when we inevitably move off them? Or just eat it and deal with him for the next 7 years?

The organizational rank is irrelevant for the exercise of the question. Ignore that, if need be. I didn't feel like jumping on BTV for obvious reasons. Simply consider it Adames and Yelich for fliers.

No it would be a waste of a trade.  Even if the Dodgers would be interested I would rather just keep Yelich and live with the contract.  Better to get full value for Adames than half or even lower value.  

[Robocaller]

6 hours ago, nate82 said:

You won’t get a top 15 if you add Yelich to the deal.  You may have to add money to the deal to get the deal near even.

Would have to look at the numbers again but Yelich has been a -100m+ valued player.  Adames has been about $30-40m valued player.  So Adames excess value won’t even cover Yelich’s negative value.  You would have to include Burnes to get a 5-10 ranked player from the Dodgers or pay a significant portion of Yelich’s contract.  

The Dodgers are probably not prioritizing $ per win. They don't have a bottomless well of money, but it's close. 

[UpandIn]

5 hours ago, sveumrules said:

Yelich has a full No Trade Clause & his contract is about 150 million underwater.

He isn’t going anywhere.

His last guaranteed year is 2028 though, so only six more years.

It's not going to happen(or at least it's exceptionally unlikely to happen). 

 

With regard to the No-Trade, you'd think Yelich would be inclined to waive that to move back home(or close to it) in LA.
His contract also isn't 150M underwater. That's saying he has almost literally zero value left. He's only got 156 left on the deal. 2.6 WAR this year...he's got some value. Not 132M over the next 6 year type value, and I don't think Adames would make up for that value, but I don't think it's THAT far fetched. 

They'd be getting back a SS who should project to be a 4.5-5 WAR SS the next two years...and then a 2-3 WAR from Yelich.

The deferred money is ours. That's not something we're passing on to someone else, but the 132M+ Adames and the Brewers send roughly 6M a year over the next 6 years. 

The Dodgers aren't desperate though, so the Angels may be the better direction to look.

There isn't a more desperate team in baseball. A SS like Adames would fit PERFECTLY into that lineup. Yelich would actually help them out in LF/DH. It might help them make a run next year(After also then going out and adding at least one starting pitcher as well). 

So Adames/Lauer/Yelich+22M(pay his salary next year) for Sam Bachman and a lower level prospect.

Angels get a big upgrade at SS, a #3/4 SPer and a LFer who still has value atop the order and hitting leadoff in front of Trout(which should help Yelich). 

Brewers get a big arm back, though one who's not refined and almost certainly not going to help the Angels in the rotation next year.

They also maintain payroll flexibility to try and add players to put a wining team on the field this year in an attempt to convince Ohtani to re-sign. They'd have probably ~120M in payroll space to go out and add someone like Verlander, deGrom, Rodon or any number of pitchers.

You'd be giving up a lot to just get out from under Yelich, but...he also costs a lot.

I expect none of this to happen, but I think you could swing that and then kinda reset the payroll moving forward. At that point, I'd just look to deal Burnes/Woody for the best deals available.

 

Or, Yelich and his 22M really shouldn't cripple an MLB team and they could just suck it up and try and deal with it over the next 6 years. But if you're looking for a desperate team with not much of their team back and desperate to try and salvage the relationship with Ohtani, they'd be the best option...and if Rendon bounced back, Yelich/Trout/Ohtani/Rendon/Walsh/Adames/Ward/Regifo/Stassi

Ohtani/Verlander/Rodon/Sandoval/Lauer

They'd at least have a shot to compete. 

 

 

Gives them some type of hope. 

[monty57]

A deal involving Yelich would likely be something like the Reds and Mariners did this past off-season where the Reds had to give the Mariners Winker just to get rid of Suarez’s contract.
 

I don’t want the Brewers to hand someone Burnes just to get out of paying Yelich, so no, I wouldn’t do the deal. Yelich isn’t worth what he’s being paid, but he’s still an above average MLB player who can help the team. 
 

When/if we trade guys like Burnes, Woodruff and Adames, we should get as much talent back as possible to play alongside guys like Yelich in hopes of winning a pennant. You only act like the Reds when you want to end up in the Reds’ current situation. 
 

We’re not shooting for a rebuild, we still want to win. 

[wibadgers23]

First thing I’m doing this offseason is trading Tyrone Taylor for whatever we can get. This shouldn’t be a difficult decision. We’ve got a bunch of young outfielders who are ready to go and Taylor should in no way be blocking any of them. Then, I’m calling up Yelich and telling him to be prepared to play mostly DH going forward. This opens up two outfield spots for Frelick and Mitchell and Ruiz replaces Taylor as the 4th outfielder. Keep Renfroe to provide some veteran leadership.

[brewers888]

The first order of business is to either sign Stearns long term or let him go. The guy has been terrible since the 2021 trade deadline and we cannot trust a lame duck executive to do whats best for the future of this organization. If Stearns wants out let him go and get a proven winner like John Hart or Jeff Luhnow instead of handing the team over to Arnold who is unproven.

Luhnow and Hart are both guys with extremely long and successful track records. Luhnow is who I would hire since Hart is probably closer to retirement but if he wants in he should be considered based on what he did in Cleveland and what his Atlanta teams have done since he was forced out.   

[LouisEly]

Taylor is a great 4th OF and as a RHH will make a good platoon/PH complement for the LHH's Mitchell and Frelick.

While not popular, I would not be surprised if they trade Renfroe.  Only one year of control left and will likely get a significant arbitration raise.  I don't think the Brewers like to let assets expire.  Saving Renfroe's arbitration raise will allow them to bring in a free agent OF along with what they can get in trade value.  I think they'd try to get a major league piece in return with more than one year of control, likely a setup man or long reliever/swingman.

[Robocaller]

10 hours ago, wibadgers23 said:

First thing I’m doing this offseason is trading Tyrone Taylor for whatever we can get. 

I might put it off until a desperate team needs a CF because of an injury just before the season starts.

 

[Hopper]

On 10/2/2022 at 9:16 AM, brewers888 said:

The first order of business is to either sign Stearns long term or let him go.

100% agree with this.

He needs to make a decision on what he wants, and the Brewers need to then do what they have to do.

[Hopper]

18 hours ago, LouisEly said:

Taylor is a great 4th OF and as a RHH will make a good platoon/PH complement for the LHH's Mitchell and Frelick.

While not popular, I would not be surprised if they trade Renfroe.  Only one year of control left and will likely get a significant arbitration raise.  I don't think the Brewers like to let assets expire.  Saving Renfroe's arbitration raise will allow them to bring in a free agent OF along with what they can get in trade value.  I think they'd try to get a major league piece in return with more than one year of control, likely a setup man or long reliever/swingman.

Trade Renfroe then bring in another vet OFer?

Why bother unless the return for Renfroe is far better than we think it would be.

I say keep Renfroe, and avoid guys like McCutchen.  We have Renfroe in house, and he was not part of the offensive issues we endured in 2022.

[jay87shot]

Here are some other thoughts on potential Burnes deals

 To Atlanta for William Contreras/Travis D'Arnaud and Vauhgn Grissom/Kyle Muller

To Toronto for Ricky Tiedeman, Gabriel Moreno or Danny Jansen and a higher prospect 

To Red Sox for Rafeal Devers, Bryan Mata, and Blaze Jordan

To Twins for Jose Miranda and Brooks Lee

To Phillies for Andrew Painter and Alec Bohm/Griff McGeary

To the Astros for Hunter Brown and Yainer Diaz, 2 better pieces

To the Mariners for Matt Brash and Emerson Hancock

To the Yankees for Anthony Volpe and Austin Wells

To Angels for Reid Detmers, Jared Walsh, and Chase Silseth

That's not mention the Rangers, O's, Dodgers, and Mets. Also I would expect that we would get at least 4 pieces so all of these packages would need a few mid-tier prospects or better depending on the strength of package. Maybe as discussed we would need to throw in a sweetener as well in a couple deals as well. The point is a Burnes or Woody bidding war could be nuts.

[Robocaller]

Wong has hit pretty well this season after a slow start. What do you think we could get for him if we pick up his option (assuming there's no no-trade clause tied with that option)?  

[nate82]

14 minutes ago, Robocaller said:

Wong has hit pretty well this season after a slow start. What do you think we could get for him if we pick up his option (assuming there's no no-trade clause tied with that option)?  

Not much really at that price it would be hard to move him.  At $10m and there not being all that much demand for 2B I think the Brewers would have to take on some of the salary to be able to move him for a decent return.  Maybe to the Phillies or Angels.  The Dodgers would also be a possibility.  There are not that many AL teams in need of a 2B the Phillies and Dodgers would probably only be interested if they move on from Segura and T. Turner.  I wouldn't be surprised if the Dodgers insisted on the Brewers taking back J. Turner and a prospect to even out the salary difference.  The Brewers would be taking on an extra $6m with Turner but I don't think the prospect would be anything more than a lottery ticket.  

 

[jay87shot]

Ok, so this is crazy and I would never do it but what what if we just went nuts and traded everyone for mlb ready players or close to it. Sorry this has just been eating at me the past day and I wanted to see how stacked we could be if the entire front office went off the rail.

Burnes to Jays for Gabrial Moreno, Ricky Tiedman, Hayden Juenger, throw in piece

Woodruff to Rangers for Josh Jung, Owen White, and Cole Winn

Adames to Dodgers for Miguel Vargas, Ryan Pepiot, Jacob Amaya

Lauer to Mets for Mark Vientos and Jose Butto

Williams to Atl for Vaughn Grissom and Freddy Tarnok

Rowdy to Marlins for Tanner Scott

Houser to Diamondbacks for Seth Beer and Bryce Jarvis

Renfroe to Angels for Ben Joyce

Urias to Red Sox for Matthew Lugo

Throw in Caritini and Taylor in to other deals or get young 18 yo lotto ticket prospect for each.

Sign Verlander 2/90 and Corey Knebel and Zach Britton 1/5 each with incentives and team option year 2.

C)Moreno, Feliciano/Severino 1B)Vargas/Vientos 2B)Grissom SS)Turang 3B)Baty/Vargas OF)Frelich, Ruiz, Mitchell, Ruiz DH) Yeli (not trading)  Utl) Amaya, eventually Lugo

Rotation 1)Verlander 2)Peralta 3)Ashby/Own White 4)Pepiot/Tiedman (I know Tiedman is probably 1/2 year away) 5) 2 of Butto, Tarnok, Winn, Juenger, Small, Gasser, Jarvis (probably not Jarvis)

I would piggy back the 3/4/5 spots for the first 1/2 of the year to save young arms and undoubtably 3 of the 9 would seperate and a few would end up in the pen as high leverage relievers.

Pen) Bush, Knebel, Britton, Box, Scott, Cousins, Milner, Strezlecki, Perdomo, eventually Joyce and some of the AAA starters.

I am sure that would be way to many pitchers so maybe even trade a reliever or two.

That would be a pretty amazing upside team, like 6 potential top of the rotation arms and a lineup full of 5 WAR potential guys with some depth to backup a couple failures.

Sorry had to do it.

[nate82]

The bring everyone mostly back but pay a lot for bullpen and fill holes scenario.  Mark A would have to open up his wallet a lot for this to happen and I don't think many of these moves are realistic.  But I am bored so......

Free Agent signings:

David Robertson 2-years $19m

Aroldis Chapman 1-year $10m 

Michael Fulmer 3-years $16m

Nolan Arenado 5-years $165m

Christian Vazquez 3-years $27m

Dansby Swanson 6-years $140m

Jace Peterson 3-years $11m

Trades:

Urias to Mariners for Berroa (RHP), Clase (OF) and Perez Jr. (1B).  

Adames to Dodgers for Stone (RHP), Bruns (LHP) and  Leonard (SS)

Hiura and Small to the A's for Puk and Brown

Taylor 

Position players:

1B: Tellez, Brown and Brosseau

2B: Turang and Peterson

SS: Swanson and Turang

3B: Arenado, Brosseau and Peterson

OF: Yelich, Renfroe, Brown, Mitchell and Frelick

C : Vazquez and Caratini

Lineup:

1. Yelich (DH)

2. Swanson (SS)

3. Arenado (3B)

4. Tellez (1B)

5. Renfroe (RF)

6. Frelick (LF)

7.  Vazquez (C)

8. Mitchell (CF)

9. Turang (SS)

Rotation: Burnes, Woodruff, Peralta, Lauer and Houser/Gasser (when ready)

Bullpen: Robertson, Chapman, Fulmer, Puk, Williams, Milner and Cousins/Strzeleki

 

Like I said some of these are probably not realistic and I don't see the Brewers spending anywhere close to what I have put down.  I just did this for fun if money wasn't an issue.  

Lots of money spent and since it is the Brewers they go 62-100.

[Matt Breen]

Here's my way to get catcher Danny Jansen from Toronto. 

I don't know that much about the guy - but he had a really good year in Toronto. And with the Jays having a really good, full time catch in Alejandro Kirk, this is their way of leveraging Jansen while he has max value.

Brewers get C Danny Jansen and LP Yusei Kikuchi. 

Toronto gets a D list prospect or a pizza.

This is a salary dump for Toronto. Kikuchi makes $20m over the next two years ($10m per year). He was bad last year - and really only had one decent season in the majors (2021 - 1.7 WAR in Seattle). But the guy is 31 years old and - at this point - a lost cause. The move allows Toronto to free up $20m in salary in 2023-24 - important for a team looking to seriously compete. 

Brewers get Jansen to team with Caratini (or whoever). He is under control for two years. 

Kikuchi becomes fringe player. Perhaps he could be effective in relief. Or just as a 6th or 7th starter. Or we just outright him off the roster - no one will claim him - and he would (I think) need to go to AAA to keep collecting his salary. 

Just an idea. Basically it's acquiring Jansen by paying Toronto $20m. 

Note: Kikuchi could be replaced by 35-year old Hyun Jin Ryu - who is in the final year of his contract with the club - and scheduled to make $20m in 2023. Ryu will likely miss all of next year after undergoing Tommy John surgery a few months ago - so he almost assuredly won't help anyone in 2023.

Taking Ryu's salary - all $20m in 2023 - would likely mean the Crew would need to get back some other asset. 

[jay87shot]

19 hours ago, nate82 said:

The bring everyone mostly back but pay a lot for bullpen and fill holes scenario.  Mark A would have to open up his wallet a lot for this to happen and I don't think many of these moves are realistic.  But I am bored so......

Free Agent signings:

David Robertson 2-years $19m

Aroldis Chapman 1-year $10m 

Michael Fulmer 3-years $16m

Nolan Arenado 5-years $165m

Christian Vazquez 3-years $27m

Dansby Swanson 6-years $140m

Jace Peterson 3-years $11m

Trades:

Urias to Mariners for Berroa (RHP), Clase (OF) and Perez Jr. (1B).  

Adames to Dodgers for Stone (RHP), Bruns (LHP) and  Leonard (SS)

Hiura and Small to the A's for Puk and Brown

Taylor 

Position players:

1B: Tellez, Brown and Brosseau

2B: Turang and Peterson

SS: Swanson and Turang

3B: Arenado, Brosseau and Peterson

OF: Yelich, Renfroe, Brown, Mitchell and Frelick

C : Vazquez and Caratini

Lineup:

1. Yelich (DH)

2. Swanson (SS)

3. Arenado (3B)

4. Tellez (1B)

5. Renfroe (RF)

6. Frelick (LF)

7.  Vazquez (C)

8. Mitchell (CF)

9. Turang (SS)

Rotation: Burnes, Woodruff, Peralta, Lauer and Houser/Gasser (when ready)

Bullpen: Robertson, Chapman, Fulmer, Puk, Williams, Milner and Cousins/Strzeleki

 

Like I said some of these are probably not realistic and I don't see the Brewers spending anywhere close to what I have put down.  I just did this for fun if money wasn't an issue.  

Lots of money spent and since it is the Brewers they go 62-100.

That's like adding 80+ million to the payroll. From what I can guess, Mark A. and Stearns have been telling everyone that we were a decent amount over budget this year. Add in a bunch of arby raises and that the attendance was down 10-15% and would guess we will need to shave payroll down some more than expand it.

Granted I would love all those guys expect Robertson and Swanson.

[jay87shot]

2 hours ago, reillymcshane said:

Here's my way to get catcher Danny Jansen from Toronto. 

I don't know that much about the guy - but he had a really good year in Toronto. And with the Jays having a really good, full time catch in Alejandro Kirk, this is their way of leveraging Jansen while he has max value.

Brewers get C Danny Jansen and LP Yusei Kikuchi. 

Toronto gets a D list prospect or a pizza.

This is a salary dump for Toronto. Kikuchi makes $20m over the next two years ($10m per year). He was bad last year - and really only had one decent season in the majors (2021 - 1.7 WAR in Seattle). But the guy is 31 years old and - at this point - a lost cause. The move allows Toronto to free up $20m in salary in 2023-24 - important for a team looking to seriously compete. 

Brewers get Jansen to team with Caratini (or whoever). He is under control for two years. 

Kikuchi becomes fringe player. Perhaps he could be effective in relief. Or just as a 6th or 7th starter. Or we just outright him off the roster - no one will claim him - and he would (I think) need to go to AAA to keep collecting his salary. 

Just an idea. Basically it's acquiring Jansen by paying Toronto $20m. 

Note: Kikuchi could be replaced by 35-year old Hyun Jin Ryu - who is in the final year of his contract with the club - and scheduled to make $20m in 2023. Ryu will likely miss all of next year after undergoing Tommy John surgery a few months ago - so he almost assuredly won't help anyone in 2023.

Taking Ryu's salary - all $20m in 2023 - would likely mean the Crew would need to get back some other asset. 

Again I doubt we take on money. I wouldn't mind trying to get rid of a bunch of seemingly excess pieces for him.

Tyrone Taylor, Gustave, and Hedbert Perez

or Houser and 18 yo lotto ticket type prospect or 2.

I wouldn't give up a high end prospect for him, but he will have a lot of value based on how many teams need a solid catcher.

 

[UpandIn]

7 hours ago, jay87shot said:

Again I doubt we take on money. I wouldn't mind trying to get rid of a bunch of seemingly excess pieces for him.

Tyrone Taylor, Gustave, and Hedbert Perez

or Houser and 18 yo lotto ticket type prospect or 2.

I wouldn't give up a high end prospect for him, but he will have a lot of value based on how many teams need a solid catcher.

 

This Arenado deal just annoys me. He'll opt out just because...why not. The Rockies are either paying him 20M or if he doesn't opt out they're paying 20M to the Cards. 

Edit-I take it back. He'll opt IN because just to stick it to the Rockies anyway. The Cards, who want to re-sign him and HOPE he doesn't opt out, they get 20M more if he opts in. So they work out a deal, he opts in, they extend his deal. Give him another 20M the final year of the current deal and then maybe an option year with a 15M buyout. You agree to give him another 35, only 15 of that comes out of your own pocket, so why not?

They already paid 50M, let the Rockies pay 20 more. 

So the Cards got him for 3 prospects who are STILL in the low levels of the minors and not in the Rockies top 30, a 1B/DH who's a nice bat, but hardly anything special, and then a pitcher who's about the same age as Houser...but across the board just worse. 

But SURELY for that deal, the Cards were expected to eat that whole salary, right?

Oh...that's right, the Rockies paid 50M toward the salary, PLUS another 20 that goes toward the Cards if he opts in and 20 to Arenado if he opts out.

So it was effectively a 7 year 109M dollar deal for a 3B who was on a HOF trajectory who'd shown ZERO signs of slowing down.

How does this trade manifest? Do you just call up and offer something stupid? 

Do we offer 3 prospects outside of our top 30, a pitcher, MAYBE Lauer and then say...Xavier Warren for Austin Riley with the Braves kicking in about 90M to pay for his salary moving forward.

I'm SURE the Braves would take that phone call very seriously?

 

Is Nolan Arenado to the Cards the worst trade in the last 20 years?

[jay87shot]

7 hours ago, UpandIn said:

Is Nolan Arenado to the Cards the worst trade in the last 20 years?

I looked up some bad ones.

Jake Arrieta to the Cubs was really bad

James Shields for Tatis Jr. was bad until this year

Chris Archer to the Pirates was really bad but Meadows, Baz, and Glasnow have had injury issues.

Ryan Ludwig for Kluber and others was awful

Us getting Yeli was really bad for a while, maybe not anymore.

Bartolo Colon for Cliff Lee, Grady Sizemore, and Brandon Phillips is probably worse

 

[MadThinker88]

15 hours ago, jay87shot said:

I looked up some bad ones.

Jake Arrieta to the Cubs was really bad

James Shields for Tatis Jr. was bad until this year

Chris Archer to the Pirates was really bad but Meadows, Baz, and Glasnow have had injury issues.

Ryan Ludwig for Kluber and others was awful

Us getting Yeli was really bad for a while, maybe not anymore.

Bartolo Colon for Cliff Lee, Grady Sizemore, and Brandon Phillips is probably worse

 

After the 2019 season: Delino DeShield Jr & Emmanuel Clase for Corey Kluber & cash...   Kluber had 1 IP in 2020 before injury and then signed with the NY Yankees for the 2021 season.  IOW: Texas gave up Clase for 1 IP of Kluber

[UpandIn]

14 hours ago, jay87shot said:

I looked up some bad ones.

Jake Arrieta to the Cubs was really bad

James Shields for Tatis Jr. was bad until this year

Chris Archer to the Pirates was really bad but Meadows, Baz, and Glasnow have had injury issues.

Ryan Ludwig for Kluber and others was awful

Us getting Yeli was really bad for a while, maybe not anymore.

Bartolo Colon for Cliff Lee, Grady Sizemore, and Brandon Phillips is probably worse

 

Yeah...there are a lot of trades that end up one sided, but not many that are so obviously one sided from day one. 

That Archer trade is as close as I can think of. Two young major leaguers with big upside who were both highly rated prospects and then Baz who had a live arm. 

The other ones turned out bad, but Arrieta had a ERA of ~5.50 with Baltimore...who can't seem to turn a elite pitching prospect into an elite pitcher despite having a number of them in the last ~decade. Dylan Bundy, Matusz, Gausman.

Yelly, we gave up highly rated prospects at least. All busts, none of them did anything for the Marlins, but at least you can say they got prospects back. The Marlins probably weren't getting much more back for Yelich. But the Rockies? With the money they paid up front and then the money to mitigate the potential he didn't work...and they got not one blue chip prospect for him.

The Montreal-Cleveland trade was worse, but at least is was done in order to try to win. The Arenado trade didn't net the Rockies prospects AND they didn't save money. 

Either way, the Cards are an average team if not for those two gifts from the NL West...but at least they went out and were aggressive. And we can take some solace in knowing the Cards traded two aces for Ozuna when they sent Alcantra and Gallen. 

 

 

[JohnBriggs12]

Let me start this with these observations:

Turang is a shortstop who needs to continue to develop in the major leagues.  Asking a rookie to perform at a position where he has limited experience is a recipe for disaster.  Give him some starts at 2B too but not as his primary position.

Adames is well suited to play 3B.  He wouldn't be the first power hitting SS to end up at 3B.  With Adames at SS, there's no need to add a 3B.

Urias is a good offensive second baseman.

So I'd move Adames to third, Urias to second and pencil in Turang as the starting SS with one big caveat.  They need to sign either Elvis Andrus or Jose Iglesias to provide a veteran to mentor Turang who can also get starts at 2B in relief of Urias against LH pitching.  At this stage of their careers with limited power Andrus or Iglesias could be had for 3-4 million less than they would have had to shell out to keep Wong and they'd get the bonus of veteran SS.