Hader VERY BAD for Padres

[Axman59]

Game 4 NLDS. Hader gets the save. 1 IP, 0 hits, 0 walks, 3 K's.

 

Taylor Rogers, Dinelson Lamet, and Robert Gasser did not pitch today so no results to report for them.

 

I suggest changing the thread title to "Hader VERY GOOD for Padres. Stearns VERY BAD for Brewers."

[Robocaller]

1 hour ago, Axman59 said:

Game 4 NLDS. Hader gets the save. 1 IP, 0 hits, 0 walks, 3 K's.

 

Taylor Rogers, Dinelson Lamet, and Robert Gasser did not pitch today so no results to report for them.

 

I suggest changing the thread title to "Hader VERY GOOD for Padres. Stearns VERY BAD for Brewers."

let it go.

 

[Axman59]

22 minutes ago, Robocaller said:

let it go.

 

The truth hurts. I know.

[rondoman]

Josh Hader in NLDS:

3.1 IP
1 H
1BB
6 K
3 saves

To close out the series, he struck out an MVP, another MVP and the reigning NL batting champion.

Silence. ?

[brewers888]

How does any fan of the Brewers watch these playoffs and not come away infuriated with Stearns. Good for Josh for once again being the best reliever in baseball and shame on the Brewers for flushing away a playoff spot with little future value to show for it.

Giving away the best reliever in baseball for a pitcher whose upside is probably Eric Lauer and an outfield prospect who is most likley a 5th outfielder and the 3rd or 4th best outfield prospect of this team in AAA was incredibly stupid the day the deal was made and continues to look worse by the day.

As far as I am concerned Stearns can go back home to New York as long as we replace him with his old boss in Houston Jeff Luhnow or the great John Hart. No interest whatsoever in handing this franchise to Arnold who bares some responsibilty for the fact that this front office has failed time and time again starting at the 2021 trade deadline through this years deadline which will go down as one of the worst in team history. 

[jjgott]

5 minutes ago, brewers888 said:

How does any fan of the Brewers watch these playoffs and not come away infuriated with Stearns. Good for Josh for once again being the best reliever in baseball and shame on the Brewers for flushing away a playoff spot with little future value to show for it.

Well sure Padres fans are cheering on an NLCS run this year, but this trade sets us up for 2026 by which I mean all the players we acquired for Hader will be getting too expensive and will be traded. I really think 2028 will be our year. Just be patient!

[sveumrules]

2 hours ago, brewers888 said:

How does any fan of the Brewers watch these playoffs and not come away infuriated with Stearns.

It’s pretty easy for me. I don’t get infuriated to begin with. If I were to get infuriated it wouldn’t be over a baseball hypothetical.

I watch these playoffs and I’m happy for Hader recovering from giving up 28 ER over 21 IP from 6/7 to 8/28.

I’m happy to watch Girsham show out after hitting .184 in the regular season.

The Brewers missed the playoffs by two games. Hader lost 4 games and pitched to an 8.31 ERA in the two months before he was dealt.

Here’s a hypothetical, if Josh had continued his dominance and the Brewers were seven games up instead of three at the deadline, would he have still been traded?

[BlightyBrew]

4 hours ago, jjgott said:

Well sure Padres fans are cheering on an NLCS run this year, but this trade sets us up for 2026 by which I mean all the players we acquired for Hader will be getting too expensive and will be traded. I really think 2028 will be our year. Just be patient!

I've been saying that since 1982.  What's one more year.

[Thurston Fluff]

If anything the Phillies and Padres shows us the value in turning over soon to be free agents for prospects. You don't need the best team. You just need a good enough team to get in then anything can happen. Both Hader and Grisham both failed in the playoffs for us but were good for the Padres this year. The key is both had more than one opportunity to succeed. The best way to give players more opportunities in the playoffs is to get to the playoffs more often. I don't know how well the players we got will do but I'd put my money on them giving us more opportunities to succeed than one more year of Hader would have.

[Brewcrew82]

4 minutes ago, Thurston Fluff said:

If anything the Phillies and Padres shows us the value in turning over soon to be free agents for prospects. You don't need the best team. You just need a good enough team to get in then anything can happen. Both Hader and Grisham both failed in the playoffs for us but were good for the Padres this year. The key is both had more than one opportunity to succeed. The best way to give players more opportunities in the playoffs is to get to the playoffs more often. I don't know how well the players we got will do but I'd put my money on them giving us more opportunities to succeed than one more year of Hader would have.

Stop making sense!

[Robocaller]

20 hours ago, brewers888 said:

How does any fan of the Brewers watch these playoffs and not come away infuriated with Stearns. Good for Josh for once again being the best reliever in baseball and shame on the Brewers for flushing away a playoff spot with little future value to show for it.

Hader did nothing with SD during the regular season to suggest he could have made a difference regarding a playoff spot (7.31 ERA with SD).

 

 

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

On 10/16/2022 at 6:28 AM, brewers888 said:

How does any fan of the Brewers watch these playoffs and not come away infuriated with Stearns. Good for Josh for once again being the best reliever in baseball and shame on the Brewers for flushing away a playoff spot with little future value to show for it.

Giving away the best reliever in baseball for a pitcher whose upside is probably Eric Lauer and an outfield prospect who is most likley a 5th outfielder and the 3rd or 4th best outfield prospect of this team in AAA was incredibly stupid the day the deal was made and continues to look worse by the day.

As far as I am concerned Stearns can go back home to New York as long as we replace him with his old boss in Houston Jeff Luhnow or the great John Hart. No interest whatsoever in handing this franchise to Arnold who bares some responsibilty for the fact that this front office has failed time and time again starting at the 2021 trade deadline through this years deadline which will go down as one of the worst in team history. 

I fail to see how using Eric Lauer as a comp is an insult to Gasser. Lauer is a very good MLB starting pitcher. If giving up one year of control on Hader means we get 5 years of control on a solid #3 type rotational lefty with upside, that is a very solid get by any metric. 

Ruiz is 22, and is coming off a historic-type season in AAA. Writing him off his upside as "most likely a 5th outfielder" is incredibly premature. 

[MrTPlush]

3 hours ago, Robocaller said:

Hader did nothing with SD during the regular season to suggest he could have made a difference regarding a playoff spot (7.31 ERA with SD).

 

 

Just looking at his ERA is really lazy. He gave up earned runs in a grand total of four outings. Six of those runs came in a game the Padres were losing 9-6 in the 8th before he ever pitched. For as bad as people make his time in San Diego be, he was responsible for losing a grand total, checks notes, one game. Hader caused the Padres to lose one game in two months. Sounds pretty good to me. 

Of course, Taylor Rogers wasn't that much worse in the grand scheme. Rogers did end up pitching more, but was pretty much the reason for 3 losses along the way. However, Rogers wasn't a closer, so it is much harder to directly just label his outings wins/losses like you can with Hader. With Hader he either shut the door for the padres or blew it. Rogers was often times pitching the 8th so there was more game to be played after he pitched. 

[brewcrewdue80]

Ruiz was said to have very low exit velocity. Like 84MPH? Maybe up to 86?  Now I dunno if that includes balls he put in to play off bunts and he bunted a lot to eschew the EV.  What I see future value in that player is like Billy Hamilton or Ben Revere.  Nothing special at season's end. Not a game changer pitchers fear. Hader a game changer hitters feared.  Then there's Gasser. He sits what 90-92?  Let's say that comp is Eric Lauer or even Zach Davies. That's #3-4 SP that isn't feared as a ceiling with 0 RP threat these days of hard throwers like Hader.  The trade made no sense with the return.  You could have taken any number of the prospects involved in the Soto/Bell trade and dealing with larger upsides.  

Fleeced.

Hope Hader helps lead SD to WS. His career deserves a Championship.

[dlk9s]

On 10/16/2022 at 7:28 AM, brewers888 said:

How does any fan of the Brewers watch these playoffs and not come away infuriated with Stearns.

Because sometimes sports transactions just don't work out. I didn't love the move at the time, but I understood it. It didn't work, so be it.

In the meantime, if the team gets a couple more hits with RISP in the final week, they make the playoffs.

[Thurston Fluff]

35 minutes ago, dlk9s said:

Because sometimes sports transactions just don't work out. I didn't love the move at the time, but I understood it. It didn't work, so be it.

In the meantime, if the team gets a couple more hits with RISP in the final week, they make the playoffs.

You hit the nail on the head. I'm ok with something not working out as long as there was some logic behind it. In a way I'd have been more angry has they went all in this season because it would have betrayed their more bites at the apple philosophy.

The one thing I don't want to see is the team bounce from one way of running things to another. Of all the bad outcomes, chaos in the worst. The deadline move didn't work the way we hoped for this season. It sucks, but it'd have sucked worse had they traded half their future starting outfield, best infielder and a couple pitching prospects going all in only to get beat by a red hot Phillies team in the first round. That scenario would have left us without a future and no foundational stability in how the team operates.

For myself I like the more bites at the apple approach but if the team went with a build then go all in every few years I'd be ok with that. Miami won two world series doing that. The main thing for me is stick to what you decided is the best way to win it all. Even if it fails sometimes. There is no perfect way but there is a wrong way. That way is chaos.

[brewers888]

3 hours ago, Ron Robinsons Beard said:

I fail to see how using Eric Lauer as a comp is an insult to Gasser. Lauer is a very good MLB starting pitcher. If giving up one year of control on Hader means we get 5 years of control on a solid #3 type rotational lefty with upside, that is a very solid get by any metric. 

Ruiz is 22, and is coming off a historic-type season in AAA. Writing him off his upside as "most likely a 5th outfielder" is incredibly premature. 

A best case scenario of an Eric Lauer type and a probable 5th outfielder is not good value for Hader. The Brewers would have been better off just keeping the best reliever in baseball and letting him walk as a free agent after 2023 than accepting this inferior offer. Who knows maybe the Brewers could have gone on an inprobable run and won a championship with Hader saving a bunch of games.

If these are the types of offers we are likely to receive for Burnes and Woodruff we may as well just let them both walk in two years as free agents. The thought of turning great assets into mediocre minor leaguers is not something that interests me at all.

[brewers888]

54 minutes ago, dlk9s said:

Because sometimes sports transactions just don't work out. I didn't love the move at the time, but I understood it. It didn't work, so be it.

In the meantime, if the team gets a couple more hits with RISP in the final week, they make the playoffs.

Transactions don't work out for any number of reasons but this one was easy to criticize at the time since we traded away the best reliever in baseball when we were in first place and didn't get anything in return to be excited about. 

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

9 minutes ago, brewers888 said:

A best case scenario of an Eric Lauer type and a probable 5th outfielder is not good value for Hader. The Brewers would have been better off just keeping the best reliever in baseball and letting him walk as a free agent after 2023 than accepting this inferior offer. Who knows maybe the Brewers could have gone on an inprobable run and won a championship with Hader saving a bunch of games.

If these are the types of offers we are likely to receive for Burnes and Woodruff we may as well just let them both walk in two years as free agents. The thought of turning great assets into mediocre minor leaguers is not something that interests me at all.

"best case scenario"

Seriously? You lost me there, bub. Once again, you are choosing to be contrarian and whine simply in a not so veiled attempt to strengthen your point. 

I do agree that the timing of the deal was crap. I would think that they likely could have held onto Hader through this season, and then dealt him this offseason for a solid return. That leads me to believe that the Padres offer was one that they just felt they couldn't turn down. Which also leads me to believe that they hold Gasser and Ruiz in extremely high regard internally. Obviously they have a much higher opinion of those two prospects than you do. So ... if those guys don't end up working out, it is a direct indictment on their external scouting and player development departments. Right now this trade looks like a big loss. But the final chapter hasn't been written yet. Not by a long shot. 

[Hopper]

Quick question for all those who continuously support and back every move the Brewers make: (which I believe that sometimes, people do so just to take an opposite view of certain posters, or just to create conflict)

Given what we know now, and what transpired after the trade, how many of you still back the Hader trade and think it was a good thing?

No fluffy answers, no saying things like "we have to wait 5 years to judge the trade" or "we couldn't afford him anyway, so we had to take the best offer" nothing like that.  

No indirect or deflecting answers.

Knowing what we know right now, and how the season ended for the 22 Brewers team, how many would still make that same exact trade today?

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

1 minute ago, Hopper said:

Quick question for all those who continuously support and back every move the Brewers make:

Given what we know now, and what transpired after the trade, how many of you still back the Hader trade and think it was a good thing?

No fluffy answers, no saying things like "we have to wait 5 years to judge the trade" or "we couldn't afford him anyway, so we had to take the best offer" nothing like that.  

Knowing what we know right now, and how the season ended for the 22 Brewers team, how many would still make that same exact trade today?

I wouldn't have dealt him during the season to begin with. The timing was stupid, and it ended up blowing up in the team's face in a pretty spectacular fashion. 

But whether I think it's a good thing is a completely moot point. What's done is done. The trade was made. Like Stearns said in his presser last week, you don't get do-overs. So what we're left with now is a team that is licking its wounds after missing the playoffs despite holding a division lead for a good portion of the season. We are left with a prospective 2023 bullpen that will not have a guy who has proven to be a truly transcendent talent. 

But what we do have is two young players in Gasser and Ruiz who have a lot of talent and bring some pretty nice helium as prospects to a system that is already on the incline. And I personally am really pulling for those two guys to do well, because them doing so means that the Brewers will have more success as an organization. And isn't that what we all want in the end? To me, that would be a much better outcome than those two failing, only to get the "satisfaction" of being able to say "See, Stearns is stupid. Told you so!!!" 

[Hopper]

1 minute ago, Ron Robinsons Beard said:

I wouldn't have dealt him during the season to begin with. The timing was stupid, and it ended up blowing up in the team's face in a pretty spectacular fashion. 

But whether I think it's a good thing is a completely moot point. What's done is done. The trade was made. Like Stearns said in his presser last week, you don't get do-overs. So what we're left with now is a team that is licking its wounds after missing the playoffs despite holding a division lead for a good portion of the season. We are left with a prospective 2023 bullpen that will not have a guy who has proven to be a truly transcendent talent. 

But what we do have is two young players in Gasser and Ruiz who have a lot of talent and bring some pretty nice helium as prospects to a system that is already on the incline. And I personally am really pulling for those two guys to do well, because them doing so means that the Brewers will have more success as an organization. And isn't that what we all want in the end? To me, that would be a much better outcome than those two failing, only to get the "satisfaction" of being able to say "See, Stearns is stupid. Told you so!!!" 

lol

You just had to add the fluff at the end, but thanks for the answer.

I'm assuming that your answer is NO, you would not make that trade knowing what we know today.

Thanks.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

10 minutes ago, Hopper said:

lol

You just had to add the fluff at the end, but thanks for the answer.

I'm assuming that your answer is NO, you would not make that trade knowing what we know today.

Thanks.

Correct. Not sure why there would be any assumption needed. And I'm also not sure what you are talking about as "fluff".

But that doesn't mean I'm not extremely excited about the two young prospects they got back. I almost sort of get the feeling reading some of these posts that there are a few here that not only expect Gasser and Ruiz to not make an impact, they are hoping for that outcome. That's the perspective I'm struggling to understand.

[Hopper]

4 minutes ago, Ron Robinsons Beard said:

Correct. Not sure why there would be any assumption needed. And I'm also not sure what you are talking about as "fluff".

But that doesn't mean I'm not extremely excited about the two young prospects they got back. I almost sort of get the feeling reading some of these posts that there are a few here that not only expect Gasser and Ruiz to not make an impact, they are hoping for that outcome. That's the perspective I'm struggling to understand.

I hope they are both super star all star players for the next 5 years, but I have no faith in Ruiz, and tempered faith in Gasser.

I want every move the Brewers make to be SUPER, but when they make moves I don't agree with, they deserve to be contested, and there are some posters on this site that sugar coat every move, and act like it is against the law to question anything.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

1 minute ago, Hopper said:

I hope they are both super star all star players for the next 5 years, but I have no faith in Ruiz, and tempered faith in Gasser.

I want every move the Brewers make to be SUPER, but when they make moves I don't agree with, they deserve to be contested, and there are some posters on this site that sugar coat every move, and act like it is against the law to question anything.

Heck, I would have loved to see a toolsy corner infield prospect like Jackson Merrill and a prospective franchise catcher like Campusano come back in the deal. Ruiz's skillset does seem somewhat redundant with Mitchell already at the MLB level, Frelick on the doorstep, and Chourio not far off. If you are going to deal off a piece like Hader, you should be looking for future franchise cornerstones, The Brewers BETTER see those two as those types of players, and they better have a plan for both of them contributing at the MLB level as early as next season, because if they don't, that would be an extremely disappointing outcome.