Packers 2023 Discussion Thread

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

12 hours ago, HarryDoyle said:

That's the thing. I have no doubt he can play but just doesn't want to. He said the other day he won't until he's 100%. If everyone held themselves out until they were 100%, there would be no games played, seeing as how backup quarterbacks are the only players 100% at this point of the season.

This guy has always been a gamer, and has played hurt in the past. I've never once questioned his toughness or dedication to the game. There has to be something underlying here that he can't get past. 

To say he isn't playing because he doesn't want to comes off as kinda disingenuous. If he quit on the team, there are protocols they can go through as far as suspending and not paying him. But no one has said a peep about that. 

[Outlander]

Regarding Mahomes he did make the statement about being fine with refs letting the players play at the end of the game last week so is consistent. It was such an obvious offsides though so difficult to not call it there. Heck of a play by Kelce as well.

[Fear The Chorizo]

42 minutes ago, Outlander said:

Regarding Mahomes he did make the statement about being fine with refs letting the players play at the end of the game last week so is consistent. It was such an obvious offsides though so difficult to not call it there. Heck of a play by Kelce as well.

How the heck has Toney not been cut yet?  That's the bigger story than the Chiefs complaining about the fact they've stuck with a mistake-prone wideout on their roster all year, and underperforming receiving corps in general, because their star quarterback takes up an ever-increasing percentage of the team's salary cap.  

The refs made the right call - had that not been flagged the Bills would rightfully be upset about an obvious presnap penalty not being called at a critical point of the game.

[Fear The Chorizo]

2 hours ago, Ron Robinsons Beard said:

This guy has always been a gamer, and has played hurt in the past. I've never once questioned his toughness or dedication to the game. There has to be something underlying here that he can't get past. 

To say he isn't playing because he doesn't want to comes off as kinda disingenuous. If he quit on the team, there are protocols they can go through as far as suspending and not paying him. But no one has said a peep about that. 

I think the issue, in retrospect, was whether Gute should've invested so much in a 5'10 cornerback longterm just after he missed most of 2021 due to injury.

Totally understand the extension in a vacuum, but unfortunately injuries have a way of making good contracts look bad quickly in the NFL.  Really do hope Jaire can get back healthy enough to finish this season off - if the Packers keep on a decent run and find themselves in playoff position, having Alexander on the outside really helps their pass defense.

[BrewerFan]

17 hours ago, HarryDoyle said:

That's the thing. I have no doubt he can play but just doesn't want to. He said the other day he won't until he's 100%. If everyone held themselves out until they were 100%, there would be no games played, seeing as how backup quarterbacks are the only players 100% at this point of the season.

Based on what?

I also didn't see him say he won't until he's 100%.

I did see him say this two days ago;

[HarveysWBs]

On 12/3/2023 at 10:50 PM, HarveysWBs said:

Making a snap prediction, I’ll say 10-7 is the finish, but we drop the Monday nighter next week in New York in a classic letdown game, then run the table from there.

But I’m still feeling pretty good about running the table.

After sleeping on this last game, I’m encouraged by Love’s improvement as the game progressed.  He continues to hang tough and not just spiral into a puddle of absolute failure when things get weird, as even Rodgers tended to do.  He’s not great, but he’s still got talent and a very good head on his shoulders.

In the end, this team is stuck on the threshold of two realities.  It would be better for their current players’ growth to keep winning, but better for their future rosters if they lose.  A title is all but out of the question, and seems ridiculous even typing it out.

Ultimately, at the end of the next four games, I think I want these things, in order of importance:

1) To feel good about Love’s trajectory as a franchise QB

2) Hope for new DC and a new left tackle

3) No major injuries, new or current

4)To feel good about LaFleur as a playcaller

[CheezWizHed]

On 12/12/2023 at 11:35 AM, HarveysWBs said:

Ultimately, at the end of the next four games, I think I want these things, in order of importance:

1) To feel good about Love’s trajectory as a franchise QB

2) Hope for new DC and a new left tackle

3) No major injuries, new or current

4)To feel good about LaFleur as a playcaller

This aligns well with my expectations for the year also:

1) I think it is clear that Love is an NFL caliber QB.  He needs work on reading blitzes and perhaps understanding the condition's (i.e. bad weather) effect on his throws.  But he has outplayed many respectable QBs this year. 

2) Boy, I don't know what happened to Yosh Nijman.  Perhaps he is just rusty from minimal playing time, but he does not look good when he is in the game. Walker has been respectable out there at LT though.  Not great, but not horrible.  Still need someone better, IMO, but that hasn't been our weakspot. 

2) DC: I think this will be LaFleur's defining decision as a HC.  He gave Barry 3 years and it essentially has been the same results.  At best... they have been OK.  At worst, unprepared, overmatched, and confused.  Holding on to Barry just will hasten MLF's exit as a HC.

4) Actually, I think MLF is a good play caller.  He has been pretty creative at times and tailored to his personnel.  I think he needs to do better about in-game adjustments (e.g. stop calling Reed's end around when their Defense has adjusted to it), but I wonder how much Rodger's effect impacted MLF's play calling over the last couple years.  I hope he can show the courage to can Barry and move another direction.  

[Fear The Chorizo]

I can see Love and this group of receivers taking a really big jump next season after getting this 1st year of playing time together under their belts - if Watson could only stay on the field, I'd be even more excited about seeing what they can do.  Shoring up the Oline and hopefully moving past having to dedicate a huge chunk of the team payroll for a left tackle who can't play football anymore due to injury will be huge for the offense.

They do need to sort out their RB situation longterm this offseason - pretty apparent that Jones has aged beyond the point where you can expect him to stay healthy as the primary back, and Dillon is at the point where he'd likely be pretty expensive to keep around and get marginally decent production.  Expecting a draft pick and a few other acquisitions - although I do like the addition of Drake to see if he could take Jones' role moving forward.

Defensively, they have to bring in a new D coordinator and also figure out their secondary - it seemed like a roster strength, but Jaire has had a lost season due to injury (bad omen for an undersized and expensive corner, although he's great when healthy), Stokes is now a nonfactor the last two seasons due to injury, and Nixon may have worn out his welcome as a kick returner who shouldn't be playing as much slot corner as he is on this roster.  

I think they do wind up at 10-7, and even 9-8 likely squeaks them into the playoffs if they win the right games left on their schedule - all in all that's a positive for the organization in a season that has seemed endlessly riddled with negatives.

[yourout]

I'm still kind of up in the air on Love.

He has shown enough that he can be at least an average NFL QB but I still don't have a good feel for where his ceilings going to be. 

[Fear The Chorizo]

8 minutes ago, yourout said:

I'm still kind of up in the air on Love.

He has shown enough that he can be at least an average NFL QB but I still don't have a good feel for where his ceilings going to be. 

He's got to improve at throwing the deep ball - and I also hope some of the questionable red zone decision making on where to throw the ball/when to get out of the pocket when the defense can condense will improve with more experience.  He takes some bad sacks trying to extend plays from the pocket when they're in solid FG range, and he also isn't as quick to churn through progressions or anticipate what routes will be freed up given what the defense is doing.  That great throw and catch to Heath that temporarily gave them the go ahead TD against the Giants is a prime example of that - predetermined where he was going with the ball based on the blitz look and it was a really good play, but had he recognized presnap what the Giants were doing on the other side of the formation he could've just flipped to an uncovered Reed on a shallow post for a gimme score.  

Love has all the physical tools needed to be a really damn good NFL quarterback - whether or not the decision making improves in some of those key spots on the field determines whether he (and most any other young quarterback) realizes that potential or not.  I do think he's grown during the season in this regard, so hopefully that progression continues and he takes a huge step forward in year 2 as the starter throwing to all these young receivers/tight ends.

[HarveysWBs]

11 hours ago, Fear The Chorizo said:

I can see Love and this group of receivers taking a really big jump next season after getting this 1st year of playing time together under their belts - if Watson could only stay on the field, I'd be even more excited about seeing what they can do.  Shoring up the Oline and hopefully moving past having to dedicate a huge chunk of the team payroll for a left tackle who can't play football anymore due to injury will be huge for the offense.

And historically, quarterbacks tend to hit their stride in a LaFleur offense in year two, so I think there is considerable reason to hope for just this kind of a jump.  A healthy Watson (I heard on the Journal-Sentinel podcast that he is spending large sums of money consulting medical experts about his hamstrings, and is developing a revamped offseason workout program to strengthen his back, which is apparently the root of the problem) and a reinforced offensive line would certainly help.  

I have more hope for offensive growth than I do for a change in defensive coordinator next year.  I wish we had a new DC this year implementing a better system that would in turn be ready to start running at its peak next year with the improving offense, but as they say, the second-best time to plant a tree is today...

[RobertR]

The last game really took the shine off what had been a really impressive run. If Berry doesn't go, I hope upper management stops spending high draft picks on defense. The offense might not underachieve.

[BrewerFan]

23 hours ago, RobertR said:

The last game really took the shine off what had been a really impressive run. If Berry doesn't go, I hope upper management stops spending high draft picks on defense. The offense might not underachieve.

Barry has to go...but to be fair, the heat he took at the end of the Giants game by the likes of Peter Bukowski...is comical. They show him playing off, giving up a couple smaller gains on the last drive and complaining about playing off(which is fine). And then ignore the next play where they play press and Robinson burns Nixon off the line. 

He's bad, we all know that. I REALLY hope a couple good game plans don't change what he's failed to do on balance over 3 years with the talent he's had.

23 hours ago, HarveysWBs said:

And historically, quarterbacks tend to hit their stride in a LaFleur offense in year two, so I think there is considerable reason to hope for just this kind of a jump.  A healthy Watson (I heard on the Journal-Sentinel podcast that he is spending large sums of money consulting medical experts about his hamstrings, and is developing a revamped offseason workout program to strengthen his back, which is apparently the root of the problem) and a reinforced offensive line would certainly help.  

I'm moving from Alt to Fuaga and then maybe coming back and getting a guy like Donovan Jackson, the LG from OSU(he'd play RG). Myers has played well recently, but you can also open that up. But Jackson is similar to Jenkins. He has long arms(even for an OT) and he's extremely physical and quick.

Fuaga is just a mauler and has really good athleticism. I still think in terms of All Pro's, Alt will be the best in this class(her or Harrison Jr). Fashanu is also probably gone before we pick(if not, we had a miserable last month). 

Otherwise, maybe you look at another guy who can take the top off. Franklin from Oregon has that big speed. Two guys I love that would be great fits are Jaheim Bell FB/H-Back/TE/WR from FSU via South Carolina and then maybe the LBer Mondon later on. Probably guys we need, but more speed.

Anyway, I've seen Twitter Doctors(I have no idea how reliable they are, but they know more than me) speculate that Watson's potential for injury is high given the past injuries he's had and then watched it play out this year. So...certainly wouldn't give up on him, but I'd look for another speedster who can take the top off.

 

On 12/14/2023 at 9:23 AM, CheezWizHed said:

1) I think it is clear that Love is an NFL caliber QB.  He needs work on reading blitzes and perhaps understanding the condition's (i.e. bad weather) effect on his throws.  But he has outplayed many respectable QBs this year. 

I didn't appreciate it until I saw some of the different clips, but the wind just took a couple of the balls he threw and knocked them down. But I've seen enough to know what his upside is...similar to Rodgers 1st year starting. We didn't know that Rodgers was going to be an all-time great, but we knew he was talented enough to be the guy. I hope he takes that next step next year.

On 12/14/2023 at 9:23 AM, CheezWizHed said:

2) Boy, I don't know what happened to Yosh Nijman.  Perhaps he is just rusty from minimal playing time, but he does not look good when he is in the game. Walker has been respectable out there at LT though.  Not great, but not horrible.  Still need someone better, IMO, but that hasn't been our weakspot. 

I don't see a gap between the two overall. I was a huge Nijman fan in 2020 just due to his attributes, but he really hasn't changed since 2021. I think the main reason Walker gets snaps over him is he's got a future in GB and I don't think the Packers will pay for Walker. 

I'd say the bigger "weak spot," is that reliable WRer who can take the top off. As nice as Doubs, Wicks, Reed, Heath have been, Watson and Toure were the two most likely deep threats. Toure the Packers coaches and Gutey talked up all year and he's done nothing. Watson has been a game changer. But I still think the most obvious and biggest upgrade they can make is at OT.

Walker and Nijman are both lower-tier starters. Nijman still looks more impressive, but he's never been reliable. Walker just gets beat due to his athletic limitations. RG is also a hole, but it's so much easier to cover up. Josh Myers has been drastically better the last month or so.

Rd1-Taliese Fuaga(OT Oregon St)-He's a great run blocker, athletic enough to be a pass blocker and Tom slides back in at LT and you stop bouncing him around. He probably starts there this year if you didn't think Bakh was coming back...or ideally trade up for Alt(that's probably a future 1st at this point unless he slides, so I don't see that happening).
 

Then after that, IOL, a burner at WRer, 3rd-5th, RB like Blake Corum, the TE Bell or TE who can block and leak out like Spann-Ford or Wiley from TCU. Safety like Hicks or Wililams from Miami. 

After that, just look for some athletes who can hopefully develop. But I think you upgrade the OL, and add some more speed outside so you're not so reliant on Watson.

 

On 12/14/2023 at 9:23 AM, CheezWizHed said:

4) Actually, I think MLF is a good play caller.  He has been pretty creative at times and tailored to his personnel.  I think he needs to do better about in-game adjustments (e.g. stop calling Reed's end around when their Defense has adjusted to it), but I wonder how much Rodger's effect impacted MLF's play calling over the last couple years.  I hope he can show the courage to can Barry and move another direction.  

I HOPE it's on MLF. Murphy has inserted himself into other coordinator decisions and I really hope that doesn't happen. 

I'll stop begging for Leonhard and just hope we can find a guy like Spags from KC(and JL is very much like that). Especially when Jaire is healthy, if Stokes comes back, Valentine, we have the cover guys, we have the pass rush, especially when one on one.

As for MLF, I think he's been good 90% of the time. The Reed end arounds were annoying...the last one was just befuddling, but he's really as good as Love is. He looked terrible when we were playing terrible.

I do like how he's called more pass plays on 1st down and Love has really thrived there.

 

Last thing, is it possible Musgrave isn't the best TE from this draft? Kraft was pretty similar physically, but he plays with an edge that's fun to watch. He's physical. Love the attitude he brings...love the young talent, just a few tweaks, a little more physicality and a new DC and we could be a legit 10-11 win team next year, not just because we had a cupcake schedule.

[HarryDoyle]

We get a little bit of help from the Bengals today. Thank God they have a DC that plays press coverage in a tie ball game with less than a minute to go in regulation.

[HarryDoyle]

How about Mike Tomlin as DC?

[OldHeidelberg]

18 hours ago, HarryDoyle said:

We get a little bit of help from the Bengals today. Thank God they have a DC that plays press coverage in a tie ball game with less than a minute to go in regulation.

That had to sting for Viking fans, they stuff Mixon on 4th down but he just muscles through for the TD. Then Browning starts chucking up prayers and the Vike DB's fail to play the ball and the WR's make great plays. Yes, it helps the Packers, as long as they beat the Vikes week 17 then nine wins probably gets them in now. But after Monday I am not counting on anything, all these games seem like tossups this year.

[HarveysWBs]

On 12/16/2023 at 6:14 PM, HarryDoyle said:

How about Mike Tomlin as DC?

You could do worse than Tomlin, I think—and we do so routinely. I’m kinda hoping Rodgers just retires now and New York cleans house so we can sweep up Saleh on the rebound.

It ain’t happening, for about thirty-five different reasons, but either of those things would be a nice break.

[homer]

Guess which game was the Packer game?

 

[HarryDoyle]

It’s 10:00 and Joe Barry is still employed.

[Strike4]

Does anyone know if Joe Barry has a dog?
 

just asking……..

[HarryDoyle]

12 minutes ago, Strike4 said:

Does anyone know if Joe Barry has a dog?
 

just asking……..

Funny, I was just wondering about that yesterday.

[homer]

 

[HarryDoyle]

 

[Strike4]

https://www.theonion.com/james-webb-telescope-finds-evidence-of-packers-secondar-1851108512?rev=1702926179421
 

well at least the Packers made The Onion

[HarryDoyle]

16 minutes ago, Strike4 said:

https://www.theonion.com/james-webb-telescope-finds-evidence-of-packers-secondar-1851108512?rev=1702926179421
 

well at least the Packers made The Onion

You know the situation is dire whenever The Onion goes out of their way to put Barry and the defense on blast. The sports editor there must be a Packer fan.