Josh Hader: Should Brewers go after Josh and bring him back to Milwaukee?

[Ghostbear]

There are very strong rumors that San Diego is looking to trade Josh Hader away. Hader once again made the All Star team. He has once again proved his outstanding closer ability.  Remember when we had what was referred to as the Counsel formula?  The kickers in the formula were Devin Williams in the 8th and Josh Hader in the 9th.  How big of a boost not only in the club house, but also in the fan base, be if Atenasio  made, for once, a really smart move and went after getting Josh Hader back.

Then you could have Pyamps or Piguero in the 7th, Williams in the 8th and Hader in the 9th.  Just ask yourself, "How many games would the Brewers have won had they had this "formula" during this year?" How many games have they lost by trying to bring up some young arm in the 6th or the 7th and watched while the young kid, or washed up pitcher (Bush for example), blow the game by giving up 2 or more runs, then find themselves behind? How many young guys have they tried, and then either just released or sent back to the minors, because the kid failed and walked too many, gave up too many hits, or even gave up a big home run-the answer-more than you can count on both hands.  Time to end the experiments.

Who could you trade to get Josh?  Easy, put together a package of 3 players including somebody like Keston Huira as well as a couple of young kids you brought up and ended up sending back down, send them to San Diego, and make a deal. The only reason I wouldn't trade Rowdy Telez right now is his defense. He certainly is having problems hitting.  Teams have figured out he's a guess hitter. So, challenge him constantly first by pitching him fastballs or sliders on the outside of the plate, then once they get a couple of strikes on him, they throw him a breaking pitch down and inside. He strikes out continually because he just won't learn to hit the ball with power to the opposite field. Yelich has learned that-over the past 10 games or so how many extra base hits including home runs has Yelich hit to left field? Now, teams are having a hard time figuring out what to throw him, lately they've gone back to down and inside.

Rowdy needs to change his feet, get his bat up and back a bit, and learn to stroke the ball to the opposite field where he has the power to hit extra base hits and home runs, not just blooping singles.  The adage that continually comes to mind is:  "See it! Read it! Hit it!" Don't guess. Follow the ball from the time the pitcher gets it back from the catcher. Just watching on TV, the last Reds game, I could tell what the pitcher was going to throw, just by watching each time what he was doing with the ball in the glove just before he pitched. You could read change up every time.

The Brewer hitters need to be trained on how to read the ball, not just watch the pitcher. Focus on the ball-See it, Read it, Hit it.  So, end of post: Bring Hader Back. Fire the hitting coaches and bring somebody aboard who teaches line drive hitting, and teaching the players how to, See It! Read It! Hit it!  The Brewers should have at least 3 guys hitting over .300.  They should have at least 3 guys hitting 20-30 HR every year-Joey Wiemer has that ability, he just needs guidance in terms of stance, patience, and focus-stop jumping around and focus on the ball.  Same goes for Willy Adames.   End of Post-

[rickh150]

The bridge is burned.

[Jopal78]

Hands down best poster on this site.

Although, even assuming San Diego sells, Hader will be too rich for the brewers blood. 

[TURBO]

I'm sure you had a lot of great things to say, but that post is just plain not readable.

[StearnsFTW]

Apparently Ghostbear isn't into the whole brevity thing.

[Brewcrew82]

19 minutes ago, StearnsFTW said:

Apparently Ghostbear isn't into the whole brevity thing.

Or the whole paragraphs thing. 

[wallus]

Use any prospect capital on some guys that can hit please. 

[CheezWizHed]

Rowdy hitting sandwich between a toasted Hader trade bread with a side of Wiemer/Adames chips.  Delicious! 

[StearnsFTW]

Reads like a Freeway rant tbh 

[Brock Beauchamp]

Let's ease up on the stream of consciousness nature of the post, everybody. Be nice.

As for Hader, I love him but acknowledge that the Brewers are not the kind of team that can afford to play in the "expensive and aging reliever" market. It's a really bad use of their limited resources.

[Brock Beauchamp]

I speed-read through the post and added some paragraph breaks, probably in some rather nonsensical places but it's more legible now.

[jay87shot]

As much as I love Hader, 25-ish innings is not worth the 1 solid or 2 good pieces he will cost. I am sure he would cost like Gasser or something like Mendez and Logan Henderson.

I'd rather go after a guy with contol if giving up a decent prospect package. Kendall Graveman, Scott Barlow, Daniel Bard, or Drew Smith are guys controlled through 2024 and wouldn't cost a ton. 

Don't forget when Woody comes back Houser might go back to the pen, Uribe will hopefully stick. Also if Ashby comes back it might be to the bullpen. Maybe a guy like Lauer comes back as a reliever.  A nice late inning arm would be nice but unnecessary. 

[Brewcrew82]

1 hour ago, jay87shot said:

As much as I love Hader, 25-ish innings is not worth the 1 solid or 2 good pieces he will cost. I am sure he would cost like Gasser or something like Mendez and Logan Henderson.

I'd rather go after a guy with contol if giving up a decent prospect package. Kendall Graveman, Scott Barlow, Daniel Bard, or Drew Smith are guys controlled through 2024 and wouldn't cost a ton. 

Don't forget when Woody comes back Houser might go back to the pen, Uribe will hopefully stick. Also if Ashby comes back it might be to the bullpen. Maybe a guy like Lauer comes back as a reliever.  A nice late inning arm would be nice but unnecessary. 

Yeah. An arm like Hader is nice, but unnecessary. Corner OF/IF bats (with the exception of LF) a different story...

[KeithStone53151]

Ignoring history, it would make more sense to target a premium relief rental if we were dominating the NL Central and gearing up for a true postseason run...but were losing too many close games, or simply wanted to create a 2 headed bullpen monster. There's certainly something to be said about being able to get a lead after 7 innings and have a virtually guaranteed win.

All that said, we have too many other priorities. Our resources for a playoff push are better used for a true impact bat, or multiple quality bats that are less expensive than an impact bat. Yelich, Adames, Contreras, Wiemer, Miller, Caratini, maybe Anderson. Those are the guys at or projected to clear 1 WAR by end of season. We really have 4 guys that make sense as starting everyday players and should be looking to add 2-3 quality players to play most/all games. Caratini, Anderson, and Miller are part time players on any other contender. You could argue Wiemer also should be a part time player, but he has power and defensive metrics love him this year. Almost all internal potential second half reinforcements are on the pitching side. We should almost exclusively be targeting hitting at the deadline, or be selling. 

[brewmann04]

Wilson should be up soon but I don’t see a return of Josh 

[TURBO]

We knew we weren't going to be able to pay him, so we traded him.

Why has this changed?  We still can't pay him, so we'd have to trade a bunch of top prospects for a guy we can only use for 2 months.

As badly as we need bats, it would be foolish to trade prospects for a 2 month rental RP when we so desperately need to score runs.

So no, we shouldn't bring him back.

[BrewerFan]

On 7/11/2023 at 6:22 PM, Ghostbear said:

There are very strong rumors that San Diego is looking to trade Josh Hader away. Hader once again made the All Star team. He has once again proved his outstanding closer ability.  Remember when we had what was referred to as the Counsel formula?  The kickers in the formula were Devin Williams in the 8th and Josh Hader in the 9th.  How big of a boost not only in the club house, but also in the fan base, be if Atenasio  made, for once, a really smart move and went after getting Josh Hader back.

Then you could have Pyamps or Piguero in the 7th, Williams in the 8th and Hader in the 9th.  Just ask yourself, "How many games would the Brewers have won had they had this "formula" during this year?" How many games have they lost by trying to bring up some young arm in the 6th or the 7th and watched while the young kid, or washed up pitcher (Bush for example), blow the game by giving up 2 or more runs, then find themselves behind? How many young guys have they tried, and then either just released or sent back to the minors, because the kid failed and walked too many, gave up too many hits, or even gave up a big home run-the answer-more than you can count on both hands.  Time to end the experiments.

Who could you trade to get Josh?  Easy, put together a package of 3 players including somebody like Keston Huira as well as a couple of young kids you brought up and ended up sending back down, send them to San Diego, and make a deal. The only reason I wouldn't trade Rowdy Telez right now is his defense. He certainly is having problems hitting.  Teams have figured out he's a guess hitter. So, challenge him constantly first by pitching him fastballs or sliders on the outside of the plate, then once they get a couple of strikes on him, they throw him a breaking pitch down and inside. He strikes out continually because he just won't learn to hit the ball with power to the opposite field. Yelich has learned that-over the past 10 games or so how many extra base hits including home runs has Yelich hit to left field? Now, teams are having a hard time figuring out what to throw him, lately they've gone back to down and inside.

Rowdy needs to change his feet, get his bat up and back a bit, and learn to stroke the ball to the opposite field where he has the power to hit extra base hits and home runs, not just blooping singles.  The adage that continually comes to mind is:  "See it! Read it! Hit it!" Don't guess. Follow the ball from the time the pitcher gets it back from the catcher. Just watching on TV, the last Reds game, I could tell what the pitcher was going to throw, just by watching each time what he was doing with the ball in the glove just before he pitched. You could read change up every time.

The Brewer hitters need to be trained on how to read the ball, not just watch the pitcher. Focus on the ball-See it, Read it, Hit it.  So, end of post: Bring Hader Back. Fire the hitting coaches and bring somebody aboard who teaches line drive hitting, and teaching the players how to, See It! Read It! Hit it!  The Brewers should have at least 3 guys hitting over .300.  They should have at least 3 guys hitting 20-30 HR every year-Joey Wiemer has that ability, he just needs guidance in terms of stance, patience, and focus-stop jumping around and focus on the ball.  Same goes for Willy Adames.   End of Post-

Ok, first...yeah, it'd be GREAT to get Hader back. I don't think that bridge is burned...but to say it'd be "easy?" Just send 3 guys! It's like an informercial! It's as easy as that! The value has to be greater than what the Pads would get as compensation at the bare minimum.  Hiura and 3 kids(or maybe you meant he was one of them) who they've called up and sent back down? I...such as? Luis Urias?

You can't just cobble together MLB players the Brewers don't want and flip them to the Padres. 

 

As for the whoooole long "how to teach the Brewers hitters," I don't think a lack of knowledge in the Brewers organization is the problem. They've had good hitting coaches. Rowdy didn't just get figured out ~1750 PAs into the Major Leagues. He's simply struggling. He'll be fine...or he won't. I really don't know at this point. 

 

Firing the hitting coaches and finding someone who "teaches line drive hitting?"

Like you? I'm sorry, but we've been through what, 4 hitting coaches(including the current 2) in the last how many years? The problem isn't the hitting coaches.

The problem is Tellez is struggling, Wily was...looks like he's getting hot. Winker is apparently washed...though they're going to make damn sure before DFA'ing him. I mean, the LARGER problem is we're just not that talented offensively and the guys who are good hitters haven't been hitting well.

And I don't care about Wiemer's stance. I don't care what a hitter does when the pitcher has the ball. I care if they're on time and in a good hitting position when the pitcher releases the ball, and Wiemer is on time. He's also a guy who probably should be just getting called up and needed more time in AAA but wasn't afforded that when Mitchell went down.

 

Yelich? You think he's figured something out the last 10 games? He's been outstanding since May. And his approach has never really changed. It's clear he's feeling better this year(based on how he's running, his bat speed, even how he's throwing...the back is clearly better). 

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.fcgi?id=yelicch01&year=2023&t=b

I'd also LOVE to have 3 guys hitting .300. Problem is there are like 5 guys in the entire NL hitting over .290. So that seems like it's a biiit unlikely. 

Bottom line, these guys are Big League hitters. Guys who've had a lot of success in most cases and changing hitting coaches isn't a magic fix. A guy who's ACTUALLY seemingly gotten it going over the last ~10 games would be Adames. Hitting over .300 with an OPS ~1.100 and 4 HRs in his last 10. Maybe you confused him and Yelich? I don't know, but I do know there isn't some fix by just hiring SOMEONE who teaches "line drives." 

[BrewerFan]

On 7/12/2023 at 10:29 AM, Brock Beauchamp said:

Let's ease up on the stream of consciousness nature of the post, everybody. Be nice.

As for Hader, I love him but acknowledge that the Brewers are not the kind of team that can afford to play in the "expensive and aging reliever" market. It's a really bad use of their limited resources.

Not sure I'd refer to Hader as an "aging" reliever. He's 29. I also don't think his salary would be the issue. And I'd be all for an aging reliever to be added to this pen...so long as they didn't require a large haul. Joe Kelly would be a great addition IMO. You have team control for next year if he came in and threw like he's capable of throwing and he'd likely cost next to nothing in terms of prospects. The problem is, I don't even want to trade a player like Carlos Rodriguez(CF much less RHP). 

As for Kelly, Inflated ERA, but his peripherals still look pretty good. 

FIP around 3 the last two years despite the ERA. 

 

I don't think we'd even consider Hader if he wasn't a former Brewer. 

Pick up a guy like Grichuk, maybe Candelario...though even he may cost more than the Brewers are willing to give up.

[Brewcrew82]

Looking at pictures of Corbin, Devin, and Josh hanging out at the ASG, it got me thinking whether reacquiring Josh at the deadline could have the exact opposite effect on the clubhouse as last year...I don't think we need another late-inning reliever, but I wouldn't exactly be opposed to it for that reason, in addition to deepening an already strong high-leverage bullpen. 

[BrewerFan]

On 7/14/2023 at 3:18 PM, Brewcrew82 said:

Looking at pictures of Corbin, Devin, and Josh hanging out at the ASG, it got me thinking whether reacquiring Josh at the deadline could have the exact opposite effect on the clubhouse as last year...I don't think we need another late-inning reliever, but I wouldn't exactly be opposed to it for that reason, in addition to deepening an already strong high-leverage bullpen. 

I don't know if we need one, but if you moved Payamps/Peguero into the 7th and then Williams back into the 8th, that really changes the team. Kinda the Royals recipe for winning.

But again, prefer to see if we can get someone who has either a year more of team control, OR who is cheaper. The Pads would likely want one of our top ~10 prospects+ a 20-30 type guy.

[wallus]

Williams would have to hate money to be okay with moving back to an 8th inning role. I'd have to imagine his agent would be furious. 

[BrewerFan]

1 hour ago, wallus said:

Williams would have to hate money to be okay with moving back to an 8th inning role. I'd have to imagine his agent would be furious. 

He'd be going back for a few months. And given the broken hand, it wouldn't break my heart if his agent was nonplussed with a trade that brought back Josh Hader and relegated Williams to the 8th inning.

I don't believe any of this is going to happen, but the very slight difference in arbitration(assuming there's any) is just part of life. 

[Team Canada]

Counsell's smart enough where as long as Hader wouldn't pitch a fit, I could (would want to) see him mix and match and not have either one of them installed as closer. 

That would be an elite bullpen, but highly improbable. On the other hand, if your offense isn't good and you're not going to add much of value, just go the other direction and play 5 inning games...

[wallus]

8 hours ago, BrewerFan said:

He'd be going back for a few months. And given the broken hand, it wouldn't break my heart if his agent was nonplussed with a trade that brought back Josh Hader and relegated Williams to the 8th inning.

I don't believe any of this is going to happen, but the very slight difference in arbitration(assuming there's any) is just part of life. 

Yes let's anger our current allstar closer to bring back our former allstar closer that's a clear rental. Tell him "it's a part of life", I am sure professional athletes that haven't secured the bag yet would love to hear that. When is another time a clear dominant (with a dominant track record) closer was moved to the 8th inning for another pitcher from a trade at the deadline? 

I do agree that this likely wouldn't happen. I am okay moving a few prospects for this season but would not mortgage our future when I feel we are at least a few guys away.

[LouisEly]

On 7/12/2023 at 9:47 PM, TURBO said:

We knew we weren't going to be able to pay him, so we traded him.

Why has this changed?  We still can't pay him, so we'd have to trade a bunch of top prospects for a guy we can only use for 2 months.

The Brewers couldn't pay him a long-term contract.  So they traded him while he still had significant value instead of letting a significant asset expire.  They can pay him for two months.  Now his trade value is significantly lower because an acquiring team can't give him a QO.