Trade proposal for Jimenez

[brewmann04]

not trading Black at this point and definite not Ouero . I am not sure about moving Gasser i think the crew will recoup talent when they do move Burns

[Jenkins5]

1 minute ago, rickh150 said:

Pass on Jimenez. Unless you like the oft injured. And we have OF prospects galore. And please no Burger, unless you like Adames’ swing.

Yeah, Absolutely no on Burger. I see no positive in him. DH who is all or nothing at plate. I remember Gallo trade debates in past. Gallo had the big homerun power, high k, and terrible hit tool like Burger….however, Gallo at least could walk at high clip. Burger is just there to hit dingers or head back to dugout.

 

Jimenez all depends on package. Hate the health but really like the bat. He is a legit guy pitchers don’t want to see in middle of the order with guys on. Real good hit tool, good power. Doesn’t walk as much as you like & does K but unlike Burger, hit tool makes up for that. In no way can you give up one of our big names for him. However, think we have depth that can get a good deal done.

[nate82]

3 hours ago, rickh150 said:

Pass on Jimenez. Unless you like the oft injured. And we have OF prospects galore. And please no Burger, unless you like Adames’ swing.

Burger is closer to Hiura than he is to Adames offensively, both K way too much to be anything but boom or a lot of bust well mostly bust 60% of the time. 

[IntentionalHBP1]

I would go for Jimenez AND Anderson. I feel like their value is much lower than perceived.

[Warning Track Power]

7 minutes ago, IntentionalHBP1 said:

I would go for Jimenez AND Anderson. I feel like their value is much lower than perceived.

This is where I am as well. Plug TA into 2B and let Turang get some more run at SS for when Adames is either dealt or walks in free agency. Yelich, Frelick, Wiemer and Chourio aren’t going anywhere…which unfortunately might mean Mitchell is available. I’d rather deal a Zamora type but if I’m the White Sox I’m holding out for one of Black, Quero or Mitchell. 
 

Hopefully Arnold has some of that William Contreras trade magic in him to limit the return to the White Sox. 

[RWeeksFan23]

Jimenez isn't in the lineup today. I have a feeling he's going to be a Brewer.

[Never Outhustled]

I hope this gets done today. Jiminez is the hitter we need, He's the only good hitter that's truly available. 

[SRB]

How in the world does that trade value website say Eloy Jimenez has negative value? He's been inconsistent and injury prone, but he's young, controllable, and has proven middle-of-the-order 140 wRC+ upside. He's not going to be cheap. I'd start by offering Mitchell plus some and would be happy to make that trade, because we need to try to win now.

[sveumrules]

12 minutes ago, SRB said:

How in the world does that trade value website say Eloy Jimenez has negative value? He's been inconsistent and injury prone, but he's young, controllable, and has proven middle-of-the-order 140 wRC+ upside. He's not going to be cheap. I'd start by offering Mitchell plus some and would be happy to make that trade, because we need to try to win now.

BTV lists him at -0.6, so essentially even value.

Sure he has seasons of 138 and 144 wRC+, but those were only over 226 PAs and 327 PAs due to pandemic and injury.

His career high in WAR is 1.7 because he has no defensive value and can’t stay healthy, has only topped 500 PAs once five years ago.

If he had a bunch of seasons with 500 PA and a 140 wRC+, he’d be incredibly valuable, but he has yet to do both at the same time, or even crack 2.0 WAR in a season yet.

Something like Jarvis or Moore would be the highest I would go on the BF Top 20.

[SRB]

8 minutes ago, sveumrules said:

BTV lists him at -0.6, so essentially even value.

Sure he has seasons of 138 and 144 wRC+, but those were only over 226 PAs and 327 PAs due to pandemic and injury.

His career high in WAR is 1.7 because he has no defensive value and can’t stay healthy, has only topped 500 PAs once five years ago.

If he had a bunch of seasons with 500 PA and a 140 wRC+, he’d be incredibly valuable, but he has yet to do both at the same time, or even crack 2.0 WAR in a season yet.

Something like Jarvis or Moore would be the highest I would go on the BF Top 20.

He's 26 years old and has 3.5 years of team control left. He's going to be very expensive if the White Sox even entertain trade offers at all. Jarvis/Moore do not realistically move the needle at all. We gave up more for a half season of Carlos Santana!

WAR is also a broken metric for DH-forward sluggers. The presumed baseline for a replacement level DH has become extremely unrealistic, as evidenced by the Brewers' own struggles at 1B/DH this season.

[wiguy94]

6 minutes ago, SRB said:

He's 26 years old and has 3.5 years of team control left. He's going to be very expensive if the White Sox even entertain trade offers at all. Jarvis/Moore do not realistically move the needle at all. We gave up more for a half season of Carlos Santana!

WAR is also a broken metric for DH-forward sluggers. The presumed baseline for a replacement level DH has become extremely unrealistic, as evidenced by the Brewers' own struggles at 1B/DH this season.

We did not give up more for a half season of Santana. That’s a bold faced lie. 
 

You’re totally ignoring Eloy’s extensive injury history. He’s a DH only now who has peaked at 500 PA in a season and is set to make $48M over the next 3 seasons which is a fair contract but nothing special that would make him extremely valuable in a trade.

[umphrey]

His team options are 16.5m and 18.5m. I don’t see how they give him much positive value. They probably won’t get picked up. By WAR it would look pretty unlikely, although I could see a team that would just be very interested in a 1 year deal. If you don’t trust WAR then I think Nelson Cruz is a good comp, he peaked at 15m annually. If he plays the outfield and is healthy and keeps hitting then that could change the math, a lot needs to go right for that to happen though. 

[SRB]

7 minutes ago, wiguy94 said:

We did not give up more for a half season of Santana. That’s a bold faced lie. 
 

You’re totally ignoring Eloy’s extensive injury history. He’s a DH only now who has peaked at 500 PA in a season and is set to make $48M over the next 3 seasons which is a fair contract but nothing special that would make him extremely valuable in a trade.

Severino is a more interesting prospect than Jarvis/Moore, but that's just my opinion.

If you think that Jimenez is mediocre and are expecting the White Sox to just give him to us for a lower tier prospect, you are going to be sorely disappointed in the trade deadline this year. I guarantee you that if Jimenez is traded there will be a top-100 prospect involved.

This is classic homerism from the other side, no different than "The Brewers should trade us Devin Williams for our #19 organizational depth prospect!" type proposals

[sveumrules]

13 minutes ago, SRB said:

He's 26 years old and has 3.5 years of team control left. He's going to be very expensive if the White Sox even entertain trade offers at all. Jarvis/Moore do not realistically move the needle at all. We gave up more for a half season of Carlos Santana!

WAR is also a broken metric for DH-forward sluggers. The presumed baseline for a replacement level DH has become extremely unrealistic, as evidenced by the Brewers' own struggles at 1B/DH this season.

Is the DH penalty overly punitive? Maybe.

But the one year Eloy played OF regularly he put up -10 DRS and -12 OAA in 957 innings.

Playing DH is likely giving him a WAR boost because it theoretically keeps him healthier and for sure keeps his brutal glove out of the field.

[wiguy94]

6 minutes ago, SRB said:

Severino is a more interesting prospect than Jarvis/Moore, but that's just my opinion.

If you think that Jimenez is mediocre and are expecting the White Sox to just give him to us for a lower tier prospect, you are going to be sorely disappointed in the trade deadline this year. I guarantee you that if Jimenez is traded there will be a top-100 prospect involved.

This is classic homerism from the other side, no different than "The Brewers should trade us Devin Williams for our #19 organizational depth prospect!" type proposals

Jimenez is a good player that doesn’t mean he has huge trade value as a DH only with extensive injury history on a somewhat expensive contract. 
 

Devin Williams is way better/more valuable than Eloy. That’s such a horrible comparison. 

[sveumrules]

 

16 minutes ago, wiguy94 said:

Devin Williams is way better/more valuable than Eloy. That’s such a horrible comparison. 

Yeah, Devin Williams +11.20 WPA since 2020 is best among all pitchers, starters or relievers.

His 7.2 rWAR and 6.0 fWAR are first among all relievers. His 178 K%+ is 3rd. 

He has faced 725 batters as a high leverage reliever used only in specific circumstances.

Eloy, a supposed everyday player, has 1,081 PAs over that same stretch.

Ohtani, JDM, Cruz, Giancarlo, Yordan, Ozuna, Vogelbach, Soler, Harper and Turner all have more DH PAs with an equal or better wRC+ as Eloy since 2020.

Devin will also make considerably less than $48M over the next three years.

[SRB]

16 minutes ago, sveumrules said:

 

Yeah, Devin Williams +11.20 WPA since 2020 is best among all pitchers, starters or relievers.

His 7.2 rWAR and 6.0 fWAR are first among all relievers. His 178 K%+ is 3rd. 

He has faced 725 batters as a high leverage reliever used only in specific circumstances.

Eloy, a supposed everyday player, has 1,081 PAs over that same stretch.

Ohtani, JDM, Cruz, Giancarlo, Yordan, Ozuna, Vogelbach, Soler, Harper and Turner all have more DH PAs with an equal or better wRC+ as Eloy since 2020.

Devin will also make considerably less than $48M over the next three years.

Ohtani has a higher wRC+ than him?! I guess we really should be getting him for free.

I used Devin Williams as an example because high-end closers are another category of player that is undervalued (at least in terms of market/trade value) based on WAR alone, but the point is more just about fans proposing trades where they get star players for practically nothing.

[sveumrules]

15 minutes ago, SRB said:

I used Devin Williams as an example because high-end closers are another category of player that is undervalued (at least in terms of market/trade value) based on WAR alone, but the point is more just about fans proposing trades where they get star players for practically nothing.

Is Eloy really a star though?

There are 177 players with at least 1,500 PA since 2019. He comes in at 123 wRC+ (44th), -39.2 DEF (151st) and 5.8 WAR (129th).

[wallus]

3 hours ago, sveumrules said:

Is Eloy really a star though?

He isn't but because he was such a hyped up prospect, fans think he is worth more than what he is

[Playing Catch]

He's only 26. I think if he wasn't riddled with injuries, he wouldn't be on the market at all, even with his defensive issues, because when healthy, he is a true middle-of-the-order bat (a star).

[umphrey]

If you look at the production other teams are getting out of their DH this year Eloy is more like top 10ish at his position, I don't know how you call that a star player. 

[SRB]

4 hours ago, sveumrules said:

Is Eloy really a star though?

There are 177 players with at least 1,500 PA since 2019. He comes in at 123 wRC+ (44th), -39.2 DEF (151st) and 5.8 WAR (129th).

He's not a superstar but he's absolutely a star and focusing on his career numbers at age 26 overlooks how front offices value players. His non-speculative upside is a .900 OPS hitter when fully healthy. That's what makes him way more valuable than guys who might be close to him in wRC+ over the same time period at different ages and with different physical tools/skillsets.

I'm not comparing the two in terms of talent, but as an example just look at the contract that Bryce Harper got in 2019 at age 26 even though three of the preceding five seasons he had been <3.0 WAR.

[Playing Catch]

I think he'd be a "star" if he played more than 80 games in a season. I mean, he batted .295 with 16 HRs in one-half season last year, and has similar old-school numbers this year. He doesn't walk a ton, but he also doesn't strike out a ton.

I mean, if you're batting .290 with 30 bombs, are you a star?

[Brewcrew82]

13 minutes ago, Playing Catch said:

I think he'd be a "star" if he played more than 80 games in a season. I mean, he batted .295 with 16 HRs in one-half season last year, and has similar old-school numbers this year. He doesn't walk a ton, but he also doesn't strike out a ton.

I mean, if you're batting .290 with 30 bombs, are you a star?

I think you have to at least be able to put up a WAR of 2 in a season to be classified as a "star". You just can't rely on him to stay healthy. 

[Playing Catch]

8 minutes ago, Brewcrew82 said:

I think you have to at least be able to put up a WAR of 2 in a season to be classified as a "star". You just can't rely on him to stay healthy. 

Oh, I totally agree. I'm mostly against trying to acquire him based on his injury history. I was merely stating that in a universe where he's always healthy, he may be a "star".