Trade proposal for Jimenez

[Brewcrew82]

Just now, KeithStone53151 said:

This doesn't have the intended effect, as I didn't use this website as my only source of information. I also ventured much further into my analysis than OPS+ and remaining years on contract. I also don't have every other poster on this site involved in the topic disagreeing with me.

Plus the White Sox forum said Black AND Quero, which is in fact a massive overpay according to BTV.

[Jopal78]

5 minutes ago, KeithStone53151 said:

This doesn't have the intended effect, as I didn't use this website as my only source of information. I also ventured much further into my analysis than OPS+ and remaining years on contract. I also don't have every other poster on this site involved in the topic disagreeing with me.

Sounds to me like you’re encroaching on the  fabled straw man argument, highlighting that folks disagree with me (oh well), in order to obscure the fact the hallowed Baseball Trade Evaluator says you’re wrong about the value of Jake Burger, Tyler Black.

I say if you’re wrong about those two, maybe you’re wrong about them all, and you don’t really know any better than anyone of us. 

[Brewcrew82]

11 minutes ago, Jopal78 said:

Sounds to me like you’re encroaching on the  fabled straw man argument, highlighting that folks disagree with me (oh well), in order to obscure the fact the hallowed Baseball Trade Evaluator says you’re wrong about the value of Jake Burger, Tyler Black.

I say if you’re wrong about those two, maybe you’re wrong about them all, and you don’t really know any better than anyone of us. 

Except for the fact that the White Sox forum said Quero AND Black which is in fact a massive overpay according to BTV. 

You included Mitchell for some reason instead, whose value is obviously lower than Quero’s. 
 

[KeithStone53151]

2 minutes ago, Jopal78 said:

Sounds to me like you’re encroaching on the  fabled straw man argument, highlighting that folks disagree with me (oh well), in order to obscure the fact the hallowed Baseball Trade Evaluator says you’re wrong about the value of Jake Burger, Tyler Black.

I say if you’re wrong about those two, maybe you’re wrong about them all, and you don’t really know any better than anyone of us. 

I believe my argument is stronger on Eloy Jimenez than yours. You cited OPS+ and years of team control as your arguments, that's it. I cited a somewhat comparable player, his defense, his base running, his injury issues, money owed through his "team control", the thoughts of a handful of other bfnet posters, AND this trade value website. All of those factors paint a more clear picture of his value than the very limited and cherry picked information you provided in your argument.

If 8 people are talking about a topic, 7 think one thing and 1 guy completely disagrees and thinks another...I'm generally going to be inclined to think the 7 are right. And that has nothing to do with a straw man argument, I question whether you actually know what that is.

And I would say I mostly disagree on the value of Burger with the trade evaluator. Black's makes sense. I'll do more looking at Burger if I have time but that seems really high based on an initial look at age, position, and stat line.

[Jopal78]

1 hour ago, KeithStone53151 said:

I believe my argument is stronger on Eloy Jimenez than yours. You cited OPS+ and years of team control as your arguments, that's it. I cited a somewhat comparable player, his defense, his base running, his injury issues, money owed through his "team control", the thoughts of a handful of other bfnet posters, AND this trade value website. All of those factors paint a more clear picture of his value than the very limited and cherry picked information you provided in your argument.

If 8 people are talking about a topic, 7 think one thing and 1 guy completely disagrees and thinks another...I'm generally going to be inclined to think the 7 are right. And that has nothing to do with a straw man argument, I question whether you actually know what that is.

And I would say I mostly disagree on the value of Burger with the trade evaluator. Black's makes sense. I'll do more looking at Burger if I have time but that seems really high based on an initial look at age, position, and stat line.

Be careful implying I don’t know what a straw man argument is, the civility police might think you’re making a personal attack calling me dumb. (In fact I do know what it means, and that was a joke -fabled- because 90% of the time it’s tossed into these debates it’s an incorrect application) 
 

Anyways, neither Jimenez or Burger will be a Brewer in August, I’ll let you have the final word on the rest. 

[wallus]

Jimenez has a better reputation than production. If his name were something like Jake Berger and he put up similar numbers, people wouldn't expect as much for him.

With that said, he fits what we need being a DH. I like like that he would not be a rental as well.

[Team Canada]

18 hours ago, Jopal78 said:

Be careful implying I don’t know what a straw man argument is, the civility police might think you’re making a personal attack calling me dumb.

"Moderators" is just fine, thanks. I'm sorry you have been offended at attempts in keeping discussions respectful, but dropping passive-aggressive "civility police" references doesn't help.

[Jenkins5]

On 7/25/2023 at 2:06 PM, dave said:

At any rate... Either Jimenez or Burger would both make great sense for the Brewers. We have the prospects to get it done.  The problem with the White Sox is it looks like they are probably going to shake up their management. I'll bet it's difficult to know who is making the decisions

Burger makes zero sense. He doesn’t walk, he doesn’t hit, he Ks 30%, terrible defender and while homers are cool… this offense doesn’t need another guy to hit .210 with a .270 obp while raking up Ks. He have that already. That’s why we are worse offense in NL.

I see people put Huira in these deals. CWS don’t need him, he is basically Burger but who can walk & hit better average. Neither should play in the field, they are DHs

 

Jimenez makes sense because he can at least hit a baseball to go with his power. His approach is still not good but will at least K less. Now fact he can’t touch the field defensively & to be honest medically half the time, makes him trickier. 
 

I’d give up Gasser & Eric Brown Jr, That is about as high as I go.

 

 

 

[mtsportsfan]

Absolutely need more production from the DH spot , but don't want to include Gasser in any trade , with Burnes going to be gone next year and unsure if Woodruff will be here or even healthy next year , Gasser is a guy we are going to need for the rotation next year .

[Never Outhustled]

54 minutes ago, mtsportsfan said:

Absolutely need more production from the DH spot , but don't want to include Gasser in any trade , with Burnes going to be gone next year and unsure if Woodruff will be here or even healthy next year , Gasser is a guy we are going to need for the rotation next year .

We can acquire other starting pitchers in the offseason, it's what we're good at. I'd think a young starter could be part of the packages we'd acquire in Burns and Woodruff deals. 

Jiminez fills a huge hole here, and could realize his true potential outside of that clueless organization. 

[jay87shot]

I wouldnt offer any of our top 10 prospects for Eloy. I would probably give 3 solid prospects but his injury concerns any k/bb rates would keep me away from anything substantial. My best offer would be Logan Henderson, Hendry Mendez, and Carlos Rodriguez (OF). I feel like that is a substantial offer with good upside but nothing to crazy that would make us really regret it. That being said I am sure the Sox would want/get a top 100 prospect and more.

[Redd Vencher]

19 hours ago, Jenkins5 said:

Burger makes zero sense. He doesn’t walk, he doesn’t hit, he Ks 30%, terrible defender and while homers are cool… this offense doesn’t need another guy to hit .210 with a .270 obp while raking up Ks. He have that already. That’s why we are worse offense in NL.

I see people put Huira in these deals. CWS don’t need him, he is basically Burger but who can walk & hit better average. Neither should play in the field, they are DHs

 

Jimenez makes sense because he can at least hit a baseball to go with his power. His approach is still not good but will at least K less. Now fact he can’t touch the field defensively & to be honest medically half the time, makes him trickier. 
 

I’d give up Gasser & Eric Brown Jr, That is about as high as I go.

 

 

 

That's massive overpay for 1.3 years of Jimenez. (Options aren't worth picking up for the player he currently is)

[BrewerFan]

On 7/25/2023 at 1:23 PM, KeithStone53151 said:

I went over to a white sox forum, with my goal to find some slightly white sox biased viewpoints on the value of jimenez to get a general gauge in comparison to my thoughts. Do they view him as an all star if he can stay healthy? A core piece? Is he in fan-created trades? etc. I stopped when I found this...say what you want about bfnet overvaluing prospects, but there's no universe that Jake Burger is worth these 2, or even half of one of them.

"I think Burger ends up with Brewers, he's blocked here for the forseeable future by Vaughn and Eloy, his value is at an all time high, and he fits their needs and window. Something like Jeferson Quero and Tyler back coming back this way."

Edit - I actually like Burger as a target. The last 2 years he's obliterated LH pitching, and he's a perfect fit for what we're looking for. But again, we can get him for a small fraction of the above suggestion.

I think that was just Jopal posting on the White Sox Forum.

[Never Outhustled]

43 minutes ago, Redd Vencher said:

That's massive overpay for 1.3 years of Jimenez. (Options aren't worth picking up for the player he currently is)

Massive overpay? It's possible that both of those prospects are replacement level players. 

[Redd Vencher]

58 minutes ago, Never Outhustled said:

Massive overpay? It's possible that both of those prospects are replacement level players. 

It's possible all prospects are replacement level players even a top 100 guy like Gasser. That doesn't mean it isn't a massive overpay for 1.3 seasons of an oft injured DH only player guaranteed near $20 M over that span. 2 years of Renfroe for similar money netted Binelas and Hamilton, but the Red Sox had to take JBJ to get that return.

[KeithStone53151]

21 hours ago, Jenkins5 said:

Burger makes zero sense. He doesn’t walk, he doesn’t hit, he Ks 30%, terrible defender and while homers are cool… this offense doesn’t need another guy to hit .210 with a .270 obp while raking up Ks. He have that already. That’s why we are worse offense in NL.

I see people put Huira in these deals. CWS don’t need him, he is basically Burger but who can walk & hit better average. Neither should play in the field, they are DHs

 

Jimenez makes sense because he can at least hit a baseball to go with his power. His approach is still not good but will at least K less. Now fact he can’t touch the field defensively & to be honest medically half the time, makes him trickier. 
 

I’d give up Gasser & Eric Brown Jr, That is about as high as I go.

 

 

 

2 things on burger, he's a highly rated draft pick with some upside remaining...and take a look at his splits. He obliterates left handed pitching and has done so the last 2 years. He'd be an ideal player to short side platoon and ensure he only hits against lefties. For that reason, it doesn't make sense unless it's a low offer and with all the team control I don't think we'll match up with them value-wise. Valuing non established players with lots of team control is very difficult and has a wide range of valuations.

[markedman5]

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2023/07/brewers-marlins-interested-in-eloy-jimenez.html

[StearnsFTW]

Imagine pontificating about Jimenez and continually saying that the fact that's he's a DH only is irrelevant.

 

It lowers his value significantly.  Obviously .

[Matt Breen]

I like the idea of Jimenez in the lineup. His bat would be most welcome. I wouldn't however, pay a lot for him. He's really limited to LF and DH. His injuries are troublesome. And he makes some decent coin ($10M this year, $14M next year. $3M buyout in 2025 and 2026). That said, he is a really good bat when healthy. And the money owed isn't onerous. And the team options in 2025 and 2026 give you flexibility down the road of keeping him or not.

For Chicago, I guess it comes down to do they want salary relief - because I wouldn't give them much of a prospect. Eloy simply isn't worth that much. So if money isn't a big issue - they should just hang on to him and hope he's part of their future. Or hold out for a better return (which I wouldn't give). I'd make an offer - but nothing big. Certainly no Black or Quero type players. More like a Zamora type guy. 

[BrewerFan]

2 hours ago, Never Outhustled said:

Massive overpay? It's possible that both of those prospects are replacement level players. 

It's possible. Brown Jr is the one I'm fine trading given the depth of talent we've got there.

Jiminez has been worth 5.7 WAR his ENTIRE career. We're 5 years in now.  We need pitchers pretty badly with Burnes, Woodruff.

I don't think it'd be a massive overpay, but I think people are still looking at him like the guy who was a top 3 prospects back to back years rather than the awful defender and...good but not great hitter.

[BrewerFan]

44 minutes ago, reillymcshane said:

I like the idea of Jimenez in the lineup. His bat would be most welcome. I wouldn't however, pay a lot for him. He's really limited to LF and DH. His injuries are troublesome. And he makes some decent coin ($10M this year, $14M next year. $3M buyout in 2025 and 2026). That said, he is a really good bat when healthy. And the money owed isn't onerous. And the team options in 2025 and 2026 give you flexibility down the road of keeping him or not.

For Chicago, I guess it comes down to do they want salary relief - because I wouldn't give them much of a prospect. Eloy simply isn't worth that much. So if money isn't a big issue - they should just hang on to him and hope he's part of their future. Or hold out for a better return (which I wouldn't give). I'd make an offer - but nothing big. Certainly no Black or Quero type players. More like a Zamora type guy. 

Quero would be a total non-starter. Black...I wouldn't do it, but I could see why the Sox would want him in return and I don't think it's that unreasonable.

But I'd prefer we just slide Black into the DH slot right now. Or 1B if that experiment goes well over the next few weeks.

I think Black has a very high floor. At worst I think he's going to be a good OB guy who can play all over the field. 3B/2B/1B/CF/LF. If he hits .280 with his speed, versatility and the little power he provides, that's an extremely valuable player. 

[edfunderburk]

1 hour ago, BrewerFan said:

I'd prefer we just slide Black into the DH slot right now or 1B if that experiment goes well over the next few weeks

Yes … I prefer Black too ⚾️🙌🏼

[umphrey]

Eloy would be a big difference maker for the offense so I would give a solid offer for him. If he’s really DH only and 1.5 years of control left I probably don’t offer a top 5 and maybe protect Gasser due to franchise need though. 

[brewcrewdue80]

Offer up Daniel Guilarte with Matthew Wood. Take it or leave it.

The money and DH only is a deterrent.  The amount of teams that can use a DH that can hit forces you to offer some higher lottery ticket. I'd  expect the CWS to need to throw in whatever buyout money it is on the options.

[rickh150]

Pass on Jimenez. Unless you like the oft injured. And we have OF prospects galore. And please no Burger, unless you like Adames’ swing.