Angels Acquire Lucas Giolito and Reynaldo Lopez from White Sox

[wiguy94]

3 minutes ago, Jopal78 said:

That’s a bold statement I don’t even think either of those two are the worst run in baseball (Athletics) let alone sports.

There was a thread on this over the off season. Arte Moreno maybe is too patient  keeping Scioscia around for too long.
 

Outside of Trout, the GMs he hired haven’t done well enough developing players from within, they’re certainly not along in that regard. And like most big money clubs they’ve had their share of high priced free agents flops. 

Yet to their credit, the Angels haven’t finished last in their Division since 1999, they have lost 90 games or more just twice in the last 24 seasons. (By comparison in the same span the Brewers have had three last place finishes and 5 seasons with 90 or more losses, the Mets have had two last place finishes and lost 90 or more games four times). 
 

Because the floor is higher yet the ceiling has been lower, does that make them a poorly run team?

If I had to pick one person on this entire site that would take the contrarian point of view and argue that the Angels are in fact not a poorly run team, I would have definitely picked you. It’s a very on brand comment. Yes the Angels are a poorly run team. There’s virtually zero ways to argue against it. 

[Jopal78]

Just now, wiguy94 said:

If I had to pick one person on this entire site that would take the contrarian point of view and argue that the Angels are in fact not a poorly run team, I would have definitely picked you. It’s a very on brand comment. Yes the Angels are a poorly run team. There’s virtually zero ways to argue against it. 

Just restate the conclusion and say there’s no arguing against it, quality post. 

[KeithStone53151]

42 minutes ago, jerichoholicninja said:

Angels giving the Rockies a run for their money for worst run organization in sports. Ohtani will go somewhere else in the offseason and in response they'll give out another big money, long term deal to a player who will crater and be injured for the next half decade.

The Houston Texans would like to have a word...

Is it worse to crater your payroll, and not even come close to winning for a decade? Or is it worse to try to win, make bad FA signings, and waste the prime of elite talents by not positioning them to showcase in October? I'd argue the former is worse. The Angels certainly aren't even middle of the pack as far as well run teams go, but I wouldn't even put them bottom 10 in sports personally. Trying hard but executing poorly is better than not trying, pinching pennies, and having your only goal be maximizing profit. Enough teams in the major 3 leagues fall under that category.

[wiguy94]

14 minutes ago, Jopal78 said:

Just restate the conclusion and say there’s no arguing against it, quality post. 

The team that simultaneously has two of the greatest players in MLB history being tied for the longest playoff drought in the sport is most definitely not a poorly run team. My bad, you’re 100% right here. 

[brewerfan82]

25 minutes ago, wiguy94 said:

The team that simultaneously has two of the greatest players in MLB history being tied for the longest playoff drought in the sport is most definitely not a poorly run team. My bad, you’re 100% right here. 

Agree, it's kind of amazing. People give the Packers a hard time for only winning two Super Bowls in 30 years of Favre/Rodgers. The Angels are like if the Packers only made the playoffs once in those 30 years.

[sveumrules]

40 minutes ago, Jopal78 said:

Yep,Giolito serves as a reminder on prospect hype.

When he debuted he was MLB’s #3 prospect. Baseball Prospectus had him #3 and Baseball America had him #5, 

Since 2019, Giolito is 9th in MLB in innings pitched (710), with a 90 ERA- and 87 FIP-. 

His 14.6 fWAR ranks 13th among 144 qualified starters over that stretch with his 13.9 rWAR coming in 20th.

A good reminder that instead of becoming thee very best pitcher in baseball, sometimes top prospects “only” end up a Top 20 pitcher in MLB for a five season stretch, receiving Cy Young votes in three of those years.

[brewcrewdue80]

14 minutes ago, sveumrules said:

Since 2019, Giolito is 9th in MLB in innings pitched (710), with a 90 ERA- and 87 FIP-. 

His 14.6 fWAR ranks 13th among 144 qualified starters over that stretch with his 13.9 rWAR coming in 20th.

A good reminder that instead of becoming thee very best pitcher in baseball, sometimes top prospects “only” end up a Top 20 pitcher in MLB for a five season stretch, receiving Cy Young votes in three of those years.

Very true. Giolito still hasn't brought Strasburg level pitching or must see vibes that came with Strasburg.   Gerrit Cole didn't really succeed with Pittsburgh until after traded and must see Ace levels. Arcia 8s showing the example of what his bat projection with that young defense could have been had it occurred within the first 4+ seasons.  About to turn 29.  

[OldHeidelberg]

19 minutes ago, sveumrules said:

Since 2019, Giolito is 9th in MLB in innings pitched (710), with a 90 ERA- and 87 FIP-. 

His 14.6 fWAR ranks 13th among 144 qualified starters over that stretch with his 13.9 rWAR coming in 20th.

A good reminder that instead of becoming thee very best pitcher in baseball, sometimes top prospects “only” end up a Top 20 pitcher in MLB for a five season stretch, receiving Cy Young votes in three of those years.

I was just going post something similar but as usual wouldn't have nearly as much good information as your post. He has been solid and just got a nice return as a rental. 

[nate82]

6 minutes ago, sveumrules said:

Since 2019, Giolito is 9th in MLB in innings pitched (710), with a 90 ERA- and 87 FIP-. 

His 14.6 fWAR ranks 13th among 144 qualified starters over that stretch with his 13.9 rWAR coming in 20th.

A good reminder that instead of becoming thee very best pitcher in baseball, sometimes top prospects “only” end up a Top 20 pitcher in MLB for a five season stretch, receiving Cy Young votes in three of those years.

Giolito may not have been a superstar but he was definitely worthy of the prospect ranking.  When you get 10+ WAR from a pitcher that is something you would expect out of a highly ranked prospect. 

I haven't looked but I assume out of all the pitching prospects ranked when Giolito was ranked he is probably in the top 10 if not in the top 3 of just about everything compared to his peers when ranked. 

[KeithStone53151]

Regarding prospect rankings, you can have all the raw talent and stat lines in your late teens/early 20s...but other guys will catch you unless you're continually improving and outworking your peers. I don't really think that's the case for Giolito though. Being a top prospect doesn't mean you'll be a top 5 pitcher in MLB. If you look at the top 20 pitchers in mlb, all those guys were either tippy top prospects in different years...or very talented guys who put in the maximum amount of work to hit the absolute peak results that their talent would allow. As has been noted above, he's in the company of the best of the best...pretty much where you'd expect/hope a top prospect like him would land.

[yfinn6]

If the Angels are "going for it" I wouldn't mind the Brewers offering to take Rendon (providing Angels pick up a good portion of the tab). 

I know Rendon is hurt and having a terrible year otherwise. But if the price is right, I would like him to 3B woahs solvvd. 

[KeithStone53151]

17 minutes ago, yfinn6 said:

If the Angels are "going for it" I wouldn't mind the Brewers offering to take Rendon (providing Angels pick up a good portion of the tab). 

I know Rendon is hurt and having a terrible year otherwise. But if the price is right, I would like him to 3B woahs solvvd. 

I'm not sure if this is serious. Rendon is owed $130m through 2026. I don't think the Angels would pay enough to bring that down to even a market value contract so he could play for the Brewers.

[Jopal78]

3 hours ago, wiguy94 said:

The team that simultaneously has two of the greatest players in MLB history being tied for the longest playoff drought in the sport is most definitely not a poorly run team. My bad, you’re 100% right here. 

As KS pointed out more eloquently earlier, does trying hard and failing make you a poorly run team?

What about Oakland, Miami, Pittsburgh, Kansas City, for the most part they don’t even try?

Do the Angels run a huge payroll, yes.

Are they aggressive trading prospects to win now? Yes.

Do they ever tank, or sell off all their pieces, No.

Do they regularly sign marquee free agents? Yes

Was it dumb to sign Pujols for 10/250? Yes, then again they landed the Mack Daddy of the 2011 free agent class. 

Rendon’s contract looks awful in hindsight but he was coming off a 6.7 WAR season at 29, and was Mack Daddy of hitter in the 2019 free agent class.

Failing to win more with Trout and Ohtani is unfortunate but baseball is a hard sport to win at (The Angels have as many WS titles as the Dodgers this century).

Criticize them for the Skaggs thing, but I wouldn’t lump the Angels in with the dregs of the league simply for trying to win and failing. 

[wiguy94]

8 minutes ago, Jopal78 said:

Criticize them for the Skaggs thing, but I wouldn’t lump the Angels in with the dregs of the league simply for trying to win and failing. 

That makes it worse. They've been trying to win and failing with big payrolls while those other teams for the large part have not been trying to win. To have the longest playoff drought in the MLB with Mike Trout and Ohtani on your team for the last 6 seasons is pathetic. They have no plan for the future. All they do is think in the short term and throw money at their problems which has lead to their pitching and depth being horrendous for a long time now. How you can try to argue they aren't one of the worst run teams in the sport is absolutely laughable.

[owbc]

12 minutes ago, wiguy94 said:

That makes it worse. They've been trying to win and failing with big payrolls while those other teams for the large part have not been trying to win. To have the longest playoff drought in the MLB with Mike Trout and Ohtani on your team for the last 6 seasons is pathetic. They have no plan for the future. All they do is think in the short term and throw money at their problems which has lead to their pitching and depth being horrendous for a long time now. How you can try to argue they aren't one of the worst run teams in the sport is absolutely laughable.

100%. The Angels are possibly the most incompetent organization in baseball. I'm guessing their dollar spent per win ratio is the worst in MLB over the past decade and the incompetence goes back even farther than that. 

2023 -- 7th in payroll -- not in playoff position as of July
2022 -- 9th in payroll -- missed playoffs
2021 -- 4th in payroll -- missed playoffs
2020 -- 11th in payroll -- missed playoffs
2019 -- 9th in payroll -- missed playoffs
2018 -- 6th in payroll -- missed playoffs
2017 -- 11th in payroll -- missed playoffs
2016 -- 7th in payroll -- missed playoffs
2015 -- 7th in payroll -- missed playoffs
2014 -- 6th in payroll -- swept 3-0 in ALDS
2013 -- 7th in payroll -- missed playoffs

Edit -- and they haven't had a winning season since 2015! 

Every other organization that is known to be incompetent (and spend above the bottom 10 in payroll) has managed to get lucky at least once in that time period and make a deep playoff run. 

That said...I tip my hat to them for making a buy move this year. It was the right thing to do given they are headed for the cellar of the AL West after this year. I still project them to finish 4th in the AL West this year. 

[Jopal78]

54 minutes ago, wiguy94 said:

That makes it worse. They've been trying to win and failing with big payrolls while those other teams for the large part have not been trying to win. To have the longest playoff drought in the MLB with Mike Trout and Ohtani on your team for the last 6 seasons is pathetic. They have no plan for the future. All they do is think in the short term and throw money at their problems which has lead to their pitching and depth being horrendous for a long time now. How you can try to argue they aren't one of the worst run teams in the sport is absolutely laughable.

I liked your post until the last sentence. The original poster said “Worst in All of Sports” which clearly they’re not, and now you’re moving the goal posts to “one of the worst in the sport” and taking a shot at me. 

It doesn’t matter if it’s Ohtani and Trout, Ruth and Gehrig, Molitor and Yount, you can’t win with two players. What do big money teams do when they don’t have enough talent, they throw money at it. 

[Brewcrew82]

2 minutes ago, Jopal78 said:

I liked your post until the last sentence. The original poster said “Worst in All of Sports” which clearly they’re not, and now you’re moving the goal posts to “one of the worst in the sport” and taking a shot at me. 

It doesn’t matter if it’s Ohtani and Trout, Ruth and Gehrig, Molitor and Yount, you can’t win with two players. What do big money teams do when they don’t have enough talent, they throw money at it. 

And they've absolutely failed in "throwing money at it". While mortgaging all of their prospect capital and failing at developing whatever prospects they do have. Which is why your take that they're somehow not one of the worst run organizations is "laughable" (but entirely on brand for you). 

[RWeeksFan23]

Thread title should have been "Quero traded for Giolito and Lopez"

It could have been an April Fools-esque opportunity.

[Jopal78]

1 hour ago, Brewcrew82 said:

And they've absolutely failed in "throwing money at it". While mortgaging all of their prospect capital and failing at developing whatever prospects they do have. Which is why your take that they're somehow not one of the worst run organizations is "laughable" (but entirely on brand for you). 

Take a deep dive into their roster. They have four former first round picks on their roster with better than a 1.0 bWAR. Zach Neto is already a 1.8 in about 60 games. Fact is the Angels have gotten more out of their first round picks in the last ten years than Milwaukee has.

Second they traded Syndergaard  to Philadelphia for Mickey Moniak and got him  turned around and playing like a former #1 overall should. 

So the “mortgaging all their prospect capital and failing at developing whatever prospects they do have” is without credibility.

Yeah, they haven’t developed enough pitching. They’re not the first team to suck at that: Milwaukee developed but 2 or 3 above average starting pitchers in the 25 years between 1992 and 2017. Then again the Cubs won a World Series with only one SP they developed. In free agency sometimes you win, sometimes you lose but nearly always regret your purchases  as time passes (Josh Lindblom, Lorenzo Cain, Matt Albers, Matt Garza, Kyle Lohse, etc).

I’m sure I’ll get more disdain and not change your mind so I’ll let you have the final word. 

[sveumrules]

5 minutes ago, Jopal78 said:

Fact is the Angels have gotten more out of their first round picks in the last ten years than Milwaukee has.

If the Angles have gotten more out of their first round picks over the last ten years than the Brewers have, and we know for sure they have spent hundreds upon hundreds of millions more dollars on payroll than Milwaukee has over that same decade, how come the Angles have only gone 717-740 (16th) since 2014 while the Brewers have gone 761-699 (9th)?

[Brewcrew82]

19 minutes ago, Jopal78 said:

Take a deep dive into their roster. They have four former first round picks on their roster with better than a 1.0 bWAR. Zach Neto is already a 1.8 in about 60 games. Fact is the Angels have gotten more out of their first round picks in the last ten years than Milwaukee has.

Second they traded Syndergaard  to Philadelphia for Mickey Moniak and got him  turned around and playing like a former #1 overall should. 

So the “mortgaging all their prospect capital and failing at developing whatever prospects they do have” is without credibility.

Yeah, they haven’t developed enough pitching. They’re not the first team to suck at that: Milwaukee developed but 2 or 3 above average starting pitchers in the 25 years between 1992 and 2017. Then again the Cubs won a World Series with only one SP they developed. In free agency sometimes you win, sometimes you lose but nearly always regret your purchases  as time passes (Josh Lindblom, Lorenzo Cain, Matt Albers, Matt Garza, Kyle Lohse, etc).

I’m sure I’ll get more disdain and not change your mind so I’ll let you have the final word. 

Huh? The only first round picks they've drafted and developed into anything in the last 10 years are Taylor Ward and Reid Detmers, a pitcher.

Jury is still out on Zach Neto as he's only played 60 games. Matt Thaiss isn't exactly a shining success story with his career .1 fWAR. 

They didn't even have first round picks in 2012 and 2013 due to their free agent signings....

But yes, "without credibility". And all the while spending hundreds of millions more in payroll and having zero postseason appearances to show for since 2014. 

They're universally known as one of the worst run organizations by everyone except for you. Something to consider...

[wiguy94]

22 minutes ago, Jopal78 said:

Take a deep dive into their roster. They have four former first round picks on their roster with better than a 1.0 bWAR. Zach Neto is already a 1.8 in about 60 games. Fact is the Angels have gotten more out of their first round picks in the last ten years than Milwaukee has.

I certainly hope so when they are drafting in front of Milwaukee in a large portion of those years 

[nate82]

Just now, sveumrules said:

If the Angles have gotten more out of their first round picks over the last ten years than the Brewers have, and we know for sure they have spent hundreds upon hundreds of millions more dollars on payroll than Milwaukee has over that same decade, how come the Angles have only gone 717-740 (16th) since 2014 while the Brewers have gone 761-699 (9th)?

Because 1st round picks are extremely volatile in the MLB draft.  It has more to do with a draft as a whole plus international players.  Which the Angels have mostly ignored except for recently and other than Shohei they have all been busts so far.

You need to be able to draft and develop players in all of the rounds which the Brewers have been able to do with Burnes, Woodruff, Ashby and others.  Garrett Mitchell also has 1.3 WAR in only 44 games.  Frelick has also put up 0.4 WAR in only 4 games so far.  Wiemer has put up 1.3 WAR in 99 games so far but is not a 1st round pick. 

First round picks can be very volatile just take the 2017 draft as an example the Brewers took Hiura 9th overall and he has a fwar of 2.9 while the Angels took Jo Adell with the 10th pick for a -1.5 fWAR. 

If you go by just WAR the Angels haven't really out performed the Brewers by much and if you take all of their 1st round picks into consideration the Brewers are actually better and that is mostly due to Adell and his negative fWAR. 

[Jopal78]

49 minutes ago, sveumrules said:

If the Angles have gotten more out of their first round picks over the last ten years than the Brewers have, and we know for sure they have spent hundreds upon hundreds of millions more dollars on payroll than Milwaukee has over that same decade, how come the Angles have only gone 717-740 (16th) since 2014 while the Brewers have gone 761-699 (9th)?

Burnes, Woodruff and Peralta. None of whom were first round picks.

In sincerity, you’re a sharp fan so I am sure you know the trickle down effect on the roster of having three homegrown top of the rotation starters. Put those three pitchers on the Angels and they’d surely jump near the top of their league in wins, even without spending a fortune on free agents so I don’t understand your point/question. 

As for first round picks it’s true, the two best Brewer first round picks in the last decade were guys they traded away (Grisham and Haniger). Haniger technically was 11 years ago. If you want to discount him it would then be either Grisham and Hiura or Mitchell. 
 

[Jopal78]

14 minutes ago, nate82 said:

Because 1st round picks are extremely volatile in the MLB draft.  It has more to do with a draft as a whole plus international players.  Which the Angels have mostly ignored except for recently and other than Shohei they have all been busts so far.

You need to be able to draft and develop players in all of the rounds which the Brewers have been able to do with Burnes, Woodruff, Ashby and others.  Garrett Mitchell also has 1.3 WAR in only 44 games.  Frelick has also put up 0.4 WAR in only 4 games so far.  Wiemer has put up 1.3 WAR in 99 games so far but is not a 1st round pick. 

First round picks can be very volatile just take the 2017 draft as an example the Brewers took Hiura 9th overall and he has a fwar of 2.9 while the Angels took Jo Adell with the 10th pick for a -1.5 fWAR. 

If you go by just WAR the Angels haven't really out performed the Brewers by much and if you take all of their 1st round picks into consideration the Brewers are actually better and that is mostly due to Adell and his negative fWAR. 

Maybe, but outside the first round the baseball draft is mostly luck. Yet,  I imagine all the teams have similar lists of players they identified as first round talents. 

For example if ANY team, including Milwaukee, believed Corbin Burnes had top of the rotation/Cy Young potential coming out of college they would not take a chance waiting for the 4th round to pick him.