Heyman on CC (Will Craig Counsell be the Brewer manager next year?)

[markedman5]

It could be a rift with MA…..it could be he thinks he’s done everything he can to win it all with the Brewers but thinks his best chance is with a bigger market team? Shouldn’t discount the possibility of a long term big money deal either……Craig never had this kind of leverage as a player and he never made big money.

I could be wrong…..maybe he’s just using this as leverage and planned to stay all along……..I hope that’s the case…..but when managers decide to take it to free agency it seems to me something is going on…….if he retires then it all makes sense……but if reports are true that he plans on managing next year are accurate……..then that’s a whole new kettle of fish.

Hopefully we don’t find out until after the World Series.

 

 

 

[Brewcrew82]

7 minutes ago, markedman5 said:

It could be a rift with MA…..it could be he thinks he’s done everything he can to win it all with the Brewers but thinks his best chance is with a bigger market team? Shouldn’t discount the possibility of a long term big money deal either……Craig never had this kind of leverage as a player and he never made big money.

I could be wrong…..maybe he’s just using this as leverage and planned to stay all along……..I hope that’s the case…..but when managers decide to take it to free agency it seems to me something is going on…….if he retires then it all makes sense……but if reports are true that he plans on managing next year are accurate……..then that’s a whole new kettle of fish.

Hopefully we don’t find out until after the World Series.

 

 

 

Except the Mets, who everybody is assuming, aren’t ready to compete next year. Zero indications of a rift with MA. And is CC really someone who’s going to leave his hometown team hanging for a few extra million bucks?

I’d put a lot of money on it being the Brewers or retirement. If he leaves for NY, he’s sure going to have a lot more difficult time watching his sons play.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

4 hours ago, markedman5 said:

I’m starting to get the feeling that CC will be managing somewhere else next season.

Hope I’m wrong.

Would make sense. His stock will never be higher and 2 of his kids are out of school. He doesn't need to be "home" and is probably salivating at a big market budget.

I always think it's funny when guys say they want to spend time with family. Two of the kids are in their 20s and the others are in high school. 

[Oxy]

12 minutes ago, OldSchoolSnapper said:

Would make sense. His stock will never be higher and 2 of his kids are out of school. He doesn't need to be "home" and is probably salivating at a big market budget.

I always think it's funny when guys say they want to spend time with family. Two of the kids are in their 20s and the others are in high school. 

Don't they play baseball though? I doubt Craig has been able to catch (m)any of their games over the years.

[SeaBass]

2 hours ago, shanedog19 said:

The question that needs to be answered is “why”? If it is indeed the Mets, are they really that close to competing next year? Will Counsell want to part of a rebuild? 

I'm curious if he's thinking about losing Burnes or Woody or both and not loving the idea of working with a cobbled together starting pitching staff. Pitching is why they are where they are, lose one or both of those guys... Idk, I could understand why he might prefer to try a different franchise.

None of this is me thinking he's gone. I want to say I think it's more likely he stays than leaves. I'm just searching for credible reasons he could be seriously considering a move. I don't think it's a decision that's as simple as a maxed out salary all by itself.

[Jopal78]

It’s about money nothing more nothing less. Counsell given his tenure and success likely feels he deserves to be amongst the highest paid managers. The Brewers no doubt would love to have him back but  “at the right price” which is probably less than what the top managers are paid. 
 

 

[Brewcrew82]

1 hour ago, Jopal78 said:

It’s about money nothing more nothing less. Counsell given his tenure and success likely feels he deserves to be amongst the highest paid managers. The Brewers no doubt would love to have him back but  “at the right price” which is probably less than what the top managers are paid. 
 

 

That's ridiculous. Of course money matters a heck of a lot, but it's not the only thing. Especially when you have someone like CC who's already made millions of dollars from his playing and managing career. Not to mention a family that he wants to spend time with. 

Manager contracts are also different from player contracts. Dave Roberts makes the most at $6.5 million per year. Brewers can likely afford to make CC the highest paid manager in baseball which is what he deserves. 

[Axman59]

Stearns fired Showalter. So I'd say CC is a step closer to becoming the Mets new manager. If you want to think CC will never leave for the Mets you are free to think that. We will find out for certain soon enough.

[True Blue Brew Crew]

Uhh, this quote from Attanasio isn't reassuring at all...

Quote

“He just hit 700 wins the other night,” Attanasio said. “It’s hard to believe, because it feels like he was just in my apartment yesterday when I was trying to convince him to step in as manager. But you don’t get that many opportunities to reflect on that and say, ‘Gee, where else might you go and what other challenges might you take on?’ So he wants to think about that, and nobody’s earned it more than he has.

https://theathletic.com/4918707/2023/10/02/milwaukee-brewers-success-mark-attanasio-playoffs/

Mark talking about CC contemplating challenges elsewhere doesn't seem to be something that would be said out loud with no basis

[MrTPlush]

If Counsell leaves, I don't think money was the motivating factor. The main reason if he doesn't return, our roster is about to nosedive. Adames is gone (though he isn't that great it seems), Burnes is gone, and Woodruff is gone, heck even Miley is gone. It is pretty doubtful all those guys return...if they were, Counsell probably would stick around another year. I don't care how optimistic you are, deep down, you know this team is going to be quite low odds to make the postseason in upcoming years. We probably aren't going to run out there and lose 90+ games, but our starting rotation is not pretty looking after we lose two Cy Young candidates.

I always figured he would bail after the year to be with his family (didn't care much to manage elsewhere), but if Counsell 100% wants to manage next year...yah, Milwaukee isn't really a great gig. Getting a WC spot would be a success in 2024+.

As far as this award, the award is kind of dumb and subjective. Counsell would win the award if it was based on the last 5 years of tenure...but it basically awards the surprising team of the year. Which is fine, or else the same manager would just by default year over year. 

[Jopal78]

9 hours ago, Brewcrew82 said:

That's ridiculous. Of course money matters a heck of a lot, but it's not the only thing. Especially when you have someone like CC who's already made millions of dollars from his playing and managing career. Not to mention a family that he wants to spend time with. 

Manager contracts are also different from player contracts. Dave Roberts makes the most at $6.5 million per year. Brewers can likely afford to make CC the highest paid manager in baseball which is what he deserves. 

The most recent rumors are Counsell intends to manage in 2024, so the family concerns seemingly would have no bearing on him leaving Milwaukee.

Therefore it is all about money, and the direction of the team. Franconia presided over a handful of bad teams in a Cleveland but was well paid to do so.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

1 hour ago, MrTPlush said:

If Counsell leaves, I don't think money was the motivating factor. The main reason if he doesn't return, our roster is about to nosedive. Adames is gone (though he isn't that great it seems), Burnes is gone, and Woodruff is gone, heck even Miley is gone. It is pretty doubtful all those guys return...if they were, Counsell probably would stick around another year. I don't care how optimistic you are, deep down, you know this team is going to be quite low odds to make the postseason in upcoming years. We probably aren't going to run out there and lose 90+ games, but our starting rotation is not pretty looking after we lose two Cy Young candidates.

I always figured he would bail after the year to be with his family (didn't care much to manage elsewhere), but if Counsell 100% wants to manage next year...yah, Milwaukee isn't really a great gig. Getting a WC spot would be a success in 2024+.

As far as this award, the award is kind of dumb and subjective. Counsell would win the award if it was based on the last 5 years of tenure...but it basically awards the surprising team of the year. Which is fine, or else the same manager would just by default year over year. 

I agree and I wouldn't blame him. They have done a good job but the constraints of playing here have to weigh heavily on a manager. Imagine going from this to really being able to sign top FAs. And he's not even old. I think he'd be crazy not to entertain the idea and he is a smart guy, he knows right now he is a hot item.

[Underachiever]

"Cobbled together" rotation, roster "about to nosedive." Come on guys, in 2019 the Brewers won 89 games with a rotation that had Chase Anderson, Zach Davies, Jhoulys Chacin, Adrian Houser, Gio Gonzalez, and Brandon Woodruff making 134 starts. That's cobbled together. Burnes had his well-known 8.82 ERA, and Peralta was just coming on.

You're telling me that if they have Peralta, Ashby, Houser, maybe Miley, and a FA that you wouldn't believe they could compete? They still have Yelich, Frelick, Mitchell, Turang, Taylor, Monasterio, Weimer, Chourio, Black, Misiorowski and other promising young players. I choose to have hope. Certainly doesn't seem like a nosedive to me. 

[RobertCrawley]

13 hours ago, Brewcrew82 said:

Except the Mets, who everybody is assuming, aren’t ready to compete next year. Zero indications of a rift with MA. And is CC really someone who’s going to leave his hometown team hanging for a few extra million bucks?

I’d put a lot of money on it being the Brewers or retirement. If he leaves for NY, he’s sure going to have a lot more difficult time watching his sons play.

"a few extra million bucks"

Is a lot of money.

I hope he stays, but MA will need to fork up a few extra million. He's earned it. He's as important to the team's success as any player.

[Underachiever]

1 minute ago, Underachiever said:

"Cobbled together" rotation, roster "about to nosedive." Come on guys, in 2019 the Brewers won 89 games with a rotation that had Chase Anderson, Zach Davies, Jhoulys Chacin, Adrian Houser, Gio Gonzalez, and Brandon Woodruff making 134 starts. That's cobbled together. Burnes had his well-known 8.82 ERA, and Peralta was just coming on.

You're telling me that if they have Peralta, Ashby, Houser, maybe Miley, and a FA that you wouldn't believe they could compete? They still have Yelich, Frelick, Mitchell, Turang, Taylor, Monasterio, Weimer, Chourio, Black, Misiorowski and other promising young players. I choose to have hope. Certainly doesn't seem like a nosedive to me. 

And to add to that, I think we are seriously overplaying the hometown angle as fans. Counsell didn't get to where he is without being incredibly competitive. I am sure the tug of family competing with the pull of a new challenge are a difficult consideration for CC. His calm demeanor doesn't fool me for a minute. The guy is wired to try and win. 

[jerichoholicninja]

The Braves are a juggernaut that Cohen can't buy his way past no matter how much he tries. The Phillies are pretty good and the Marlins have a very nice team. If Counsell is ready to move somewhere else the Mets would not be where I would want to go. Cleveland seems like a pretty nice spot for him.

[RobertCrawley]

2 minutes ago, jerichoholicninja said:

The Braves are a juggernaut that Cohen can't buy his way past no matter how much he tries. The Phillies are pretty good and the Marlins have a very nice team. If Counsell is ready to move somewhere else the Mets would not be where I would want to go. Cleveland seems like a pretty nice spot for him.

It's a real art trying to figure out lineups. How long does a manager allow a player to pull himself out of a slump, or to find his control? Some of us have pulled our hair out here with CC's decisions about players like Wiemer, Winker, and Chafin', but in the end, he we are, in a great spot to make a run. 

Then there's player evaluation, trades, the draft, the farm system, etc. CC appears to be pretty good at all this. It's not just about buying players, but it helps when the GM and manager have a good feel about who will be the right players. They didn't get it right every time, but enough to build a really good team.

[jerichoholicninja]

1 minute ago, RobertCrawley said:

It's a real art trying to figure out lineups. How long does a manager allow a player to pull himself out of a slump, or to find his control? Some of us have pulled our hair out here with CC's decisions about players like Wiemer, Winker, and Chafin', but in the end, he we are, in a great spot to make a run. 

Then there's player evaluation, trades, the draft, the farm system, etc. CC appears to be pretty good at all this. It's not just about buying players, but it helps when the GM and manager have a good feel about who will be the right players. They didn't get it right every time, but enough to build a really good team.

Ya sure if your owner is ok with that. Do you think if Stearns would go to Cohen and say "a player like Mark Canha could really help us win" he's going to sure go get him and not "here's the checkbook sign Ohtani and go get Juan Soto while you're at it." That's why I think Cleveland would be a great fit for Craig. The organization is really no different than the Brewers.

[RobertCrawley]

7 minutes ago, jerichoholicninja said:

Ya sure if your owner is ok with that. Do you think if Stearns would go to Cohen and say "a player like Mark Canha could really help us win" he's going to sure go get him and not "here's the checkbook sign Ohtani and go get Juan Soto while you're at it." That's why I think Cleveland would be a great fit for Craig. The organization is really no different than the Brewers.

The man is net worth 20 billion. It wouldn't surprise me if he said, Get all three if you think they'll help us win.

[shanedog19]

Wild speculation on my part, but Counsell probably wants to sit down the Brewers brass after the season and discuss the future direction of the team. I would think he wants assurances the team will not go into rebuild mode with the pending free agencies of Burnes and Woodruff. He could very well be told the franchise can't keep either and that makes his decision to go to NY a bit easier. I also think there is a very real possibility he has absolutely no intention of leaving the Brewers, but is holding out for a raise (deservedly so).

[wiguy94]

2 hours ago, MrTPlush said:

If Counsell leaves, I don't think money was the motivating factor. The main reason if he doesn't return, our roster is about to nosedive. Adames is gone (though he isn't that great it seems), Burnes is gone, and Woodruff is gone, heck even Miley is gone. It is pretty doubtful all those guys return...if they were, Counsell probably would stick around another year. I don't care how optimistic you are, deep down, you know this team is going to be quite low odds to make the postseason in upcoming years. We probably aren't going to run out there and lose 90+ games, but our starting rotation is not pretty looking after we lose two Cy Young candidates.

I always figured he would bail after the year to be with his family (didn't care much to manage elsewhere), but if Counsell 100% wants to manage next year...yah, Milwaukee isn't really a great gig. Getting a WC spot would be a success in 2024+.

As far as this award, the award is kind of dumb and subjective. Counsell would win the award if it was based on the last 5 years of tenure...but it basically awards the surprising team of the year. Which is fine, or else the same manager would just by default year over year. 

None of Burnes, Woodruff, or Adames are free agents this offseason so pretty wild that they will all be gone. 

[homer]

27 minutes ago, shanedog19 said:

Wild speculation on my part, but Counsell probably wants to sit down the Brewers brass after the season and discuss the future direction of the team. I would think he wants assurances the team will not go into rebuild mode with the pending free agencies of Burnes and Woodruff. He could very well be told the franchise can't keep either and that makes his decision to go to NY a bit easier. I also think there is a very real possibility he has absolutely no intention of leaving the Brewers, but is holding out for a raise (deservedly so).

I don't think Burnes and Woodruff leaving necessitates a full rebuild. 

[HarveysWBs]

7 minutes ago, wiguy94 said:

None of Burnes, Woodruff, or Adames are free agents this offseason so pretty wild that they will all be gone. 

Moving on from all three this winter would be be approaching Marlins-level sell-off.  While that analogy would imply a World Series victory (sign me up), it doesn’t seem in keeping with the team’s recent m.o.  There is an emerging young core of position players that figures to put us in too strong a position in a middling division to just trade all three right now.  One or two getting dealt wouldn’t shock me, but compensatory picks aren’t the worst consolation prize for running it back another time.  And if the team face-plants like the Cards, there’s always the deadline.

Long story short, I don’t anticipate the brass having made up their mind to sell off the rotation, and so I don’t expect this to be a factor in CC’s decision.  He began in that front office, and has been an integral part of the decision making team since the beginning.  If he hated the way they operated, I think he would have been gone a while ago.

[Patrick425]

17 minutes ago, wiguy94 said:

None of Burnes, Woodruff, or Adames are free agents this offseason so pretty wild that they will all be gone. 

This is exactly what I'm thinking as I'm reading some of the posts in this thread.

[MrTPlush]

30 minutes ago, wiguy94 said:

None of Burnes, Woodruff, or Adames are free agents this offseason so pretty wild that they will all be gone. 

Did you read the entire post, or just cherry-pick? Because the next sentence mentions how it is unlikely all of them return. So I am fully aware one or some may return. The point is, it is quite likely at least one goes and very possible all are gone after ‘24.

Even one leaving is a pretty big hit to the teams pitching, especially when Miley’s near sub 3 ERA doesn’t repeat itself