Counsell to Cubs

[sveumrules]

6 minutes ago, TPlush said:

already being cheapasses every year,

The last four full seasons their OD payroll ranks have been 20th, 19th, 19th and 17th per Cots.

From 2007 through 2015 Cots has them 15th, 15th, 17th, 17th, 17th, 13th, 19th, 16th and 20th on opening day.

The only time they went cheap in the last 15+ years was 2016-18 when they ranked 30th, 30th and then 26th in their NLCS year.

[TPlush]

11 minutes ago, torts said:

Um, he was offering above market rate for him, cubs just went above above.  The brewers offer was more than generous, and as mark said, we will see if his cubs deal actually "resets" anything.  Managers aren't in a union, it's not like players who set salary expectations by their peers performance.  

Market rate is what someone is willing to pay. Cubs were willing to pay 40 mil, Brewers (reportedly) were willing to pay 27.5 mil (assuming same contract length). Attanasio was willing to pay 32% lower than market rate.

[Frisbee Slider]

3 minutes ago, TPlush said:

Market rate is what someone is willing to pay. Cubs were willing to pay 40 mil, Brewers (reportedly) were willing to pay 27.5 mil (assuming same contract length). Attanasio was willing to pay 32% lower than market rate.

I disagree. If 29 out of 30 clubs are paying their managers far less than $8 million per year, we cannot say the market rate is $8 million for Craig Counsell. 

[TPlush]

Just now, Frisbee Slider said:

I disagree. If 29 out of 30 clubs are paying their managers far less than $8 million per year, we cannot say the market rate is $8 million for Craig Counsell. 

You can disagree with the dictionary, that doesn't change the dictionary's mind :)

[Frisbee Slider]

If someone pays $800 for a specific steak, that doesn't mean market rate for steak is $ 800.

[TPlush]

2 hours ago, jw5511986 said:

Well then call me basura because if I come across him in public I have 3 words prepared for him.

It's pathetic that you would actually harass someone in real life over this

[Turnbows Barber]

10 minutes ago, TPlush said:

This is a tough pill to swallow. Counsell was "one of us", a lifelong Brewers fan, doing his post-playing retirement dream job, managing his hometown team and playing a major role in building us into a formidable team year in and year out.

Who knows all of the motivations that went into the decision but I wonder if the whole managing the hometown team aspect had turned into a negative for him.  Almost every time I heard him talk this season, he did not sound like someone who was having fun.  Maybe the weight of not just being the manager, but the local hero who was going to bring a championship to Milwaukee, wore on him.  Maybe having to always answer what this or that accomplishment meant as someone who grew up as a fan of the Brewers wore on him.  Maybe the "one of us" narrative being used to help sell tickets wore on him.  Or maybe it's none of that, maybe it was just the prospect of another year of having a DH anchoring the middle of the order that is someone pulled off the scrap heap.  Or maybe it was something else entirely.  But the whole thing about him saying in September that his thinking had shifted towards managing in 2024 and perhaps elsewhere sounds to me like he made the realization that it wasn't being a manager that he was unhappy with, it was being the manager of the Brewers that he was unhappy with.

[jw5511986]

1 minute ago, Frisbee Slider said:

If someone pays $800 for a specific steak, that doesn't mean market rate for steak is $ 800.

Yeah it literally means one person paid for one steak. That's why they always say don't buy the most expensive house in the neighborhood, just because you overpaid doesn't mean the house changes in actual market value and it doesn't mean the rest of the houses around you appreciate in value either.

[TPlush]

2 minutes ago, Frisbee Slider said:

If someone pays $800 for a specific steak, that doesn't mean market rate for steak is $ 800.

If you are unable to see the difference between a steak, and a highly unique, talented employee who is paid multi-millions $ per year... there's not much more to say :)

[SeaBass]

1 minute ago, TPlush said:

If you are unable to see the difference between a steak, and a highly unique, talented employee who is paid multi-millions $ per year... there's not much more to say :)

Dude you need to look up the actual definition because you're flat wrong. 

You can't reset a market price and also pay market rate at the same time. It may become market rate but it's going to take time to see if that happens.

[HarveysWBs]

2 minutes ago, SeaBass said:

Dude you need to look up the actual definition because you're flat wrong. 

You can't reset a market price and also pay market rate at the same time. It may become market rate but it's going to take time to see if that happens.

Indeed.  If @TPlush is correct, it would be impossible to ever overpay for anything, since you could always say, "well, that price is what the market would bear."  One party does not a market make.

[SRB]

I think people will chill out over time about this. Counsell was a likable presence and a solid enough manager, but (1) he is not some sort of managerial savant, and most of the posts on here during games were rightfully complaining about his poor decisionmaking and roster management, and (2) he spent most of his career elsewhere and only spent a few seasons on the Brewers at the tail end of his career. I vaguely remember knowing that he was from Whitefish Bay during his time here as a player, and it became a nice story when he returned to his hometown team as a manager, but minus that "nice story" I doubt people would even care about this at all.

It's very different from a hometown player leaving during free agency, and it would be very different if this was Robin Yount or someone who was an iconic Brewer mainstay. Counsell has a nice run here as manager, but if anything we have underperformed from the level of talent on the roster despite making the playoffs regularly. I don't care that he's leaving for a rival. I will barely remember he's there just like I barely remembered that David Ross was the manager.

[nate82]

27 minutes ago, TPlush said:

You can disagree with the dictionary, that doesn't change the dictionary's mind :)

[yoshii8]

I haven’t posted in years, but this brought me back. Craig Counsell automatically becomes my least favorite Brewers player/coach of all time after this move. 

[Bulldogboy]

People can have their opinions of course and I hope that someone will pin Counsell down on the specifics but I believe he just feels he has a better chance to win in Chicago. No more no less. If true he's right. Now Brewers rival has all the Intel about them and it's getting late early for the crew.

[yoshii8]

10 minutes ago, Bulldogboy said:

People can have their opinions of course and I hope that someone will pin Counsell down on the specifics but I believe he just feels he has a better chance to win in Chicago. No more no less. If true he's right. Now Brewers rival has all the Intel about them and it's getting late early for the crew.

It was about the $$$

[jhart05]

Seems pretty simple to me.  Follow the money.

Remove feelings from the equation.

It’s just a job.  Pure business decision.  Nothing more.

I would have done the same.

[Fear The Chorizo]

8 mil a season for a manager who hasn't won a playoff series in 6 seasons would be deemed an immense overpay by everyone here if it wasn't the former Brewers manager going to Chicago.

I'll stick my neck out and say right now that the Cubs are going to regret  throwing this kind of money to CC.   

I can't blame CC for taking that kind of $$ no matter what team is crazy enough to offer it.  this 5 yr contract basically doubles his career earnings as a mlb player over 15 seasons - that's insanity for a manager contract.

[jhart05]

4 minutes ago, Fear The Chorizo said:

I'll stick my neck out and say right now that the Cubs are going to regret  throwing this kind of money to CC.   

Why?  They obviously have money to burn.

Let’s say something happens and the Cubs have to eat 3 years of his contract.  Will that keep them from signing a FA or hiring their next manager at $8M again, or even $10M to get, let’s say, Bruce Bochy (no idea if he would be available, just using as example).  No.  Course not.

[homer]

21 minutes ago, Fear The Chorizo said:

8 mil a season for a manager who hasn't won a playoff series in 6 seasons would be deemed an immense overpay by everyone here if it wasn't the former Brewers manager going to Chicago.

I'll stick my neck out and say right now that the Cubs are going to regret  throwing this kind of money to CC.   

I can't blame CC for taking that kind of $$ no matter what team is crazy enough to offer it.  this 5 yr contract basically doubles his career earnings as a mlb player over 15 seasons - that's insanity for a manager contract.

unless it prevents them from making a player move (which it won't) then the money is irrelevant 

[Fear The Chorizo]

Just now, jhart05 said:

Why?  They obviously have money to burn.

Let’s say something happens and the Cubs have to eat 3 years of his contract.  Will that keep them from signing a FA or hiring their next manager at $8M again, or even $10M to get, let’s say, Bruce Bochy (no idea if he would be available, just using as example).  No.  Course not.

They don't really have money to burn though.  They are obviously a big market club, but they just had about a $200m payroll roster that didn't make the playoffs, and right now they have more holes to fill than the Brewers do after both Stroman and Bellinger opted out.  

The move from their perspective just feels weird. 

[HarveysWBs]

30 minutes ago, jhart05 said:

Seems pretty simple to me.  Follow the money.

Remove feelings from the equation.

It’s just a job.  Pure business decision.  Nothing more.

I would have done the same.

No, sorry, this doesn't fly in this case.  Counsell can't have it both ways.  He can't say "I know you, I am you, we're cut from the same cloth...Brewers baseball is a torch I'll carry always, it is part of my identity" and then make a business decision to go manage the Cubs when the organization wanted him back and offered him the richest manager contract in baseball.

But what this actually is is a reminder that nobody really cares about their legacy anymore (if they ever did, maybe I'm not old enough to have seen a different sporting world).  Love this fact, hate it, or simply accept it, it is a fact, because if Craig Counsell of all people won't care about his Brewers legacy, nobody is going to (maybe Bud Selig, but nobody younger, I'd wager).  I'll admit it, I didn't believe that fact to be true, and I was wrong.  I won't be fooled again.  

I'll still love this team, and I'll root harder than ever for a World Series, as it would be the crowning moment and the missing jewel in my life as a sports fan--and I imagine that in a few years I may even be ready to fully reassess and recognize what Counsell meant for this team in its proper context again.  But I'll never trust an individual player, coach, or organization member to really care what the fanbase thinks about them ever again.  Counsell had the last inroads through my cynicism, but I've seen more than enough now to know better, and I should have learned this lesson earlier.

[Fear The Chorizo]

Just now, homer said:

unless it prevents them from making a player move (which it won't) then the money is irrelevant 

Disagree - paying a manager basically double what the highest annual salary previously was for that position makes zero sense when said skipper hasn't gotten a team to a world series.

CC is obviously the "it" manager right now - I just have a hard time understanding why that's the case outside of brewerland.  

[homer]

4 minutes ago, Fear The Chorizo said:

Disagree - paying a manager basically double what the highest annual salary previously was for that position makes zero sense when said skipper hasn't gotten a team to a world series.

CC is obviously the "it" manager right now - I just have a hard time understanding why that's the case outside of brewerland.  

again, paying him $5m a year doesn't matter to the Cubs if it is not impacting their roster. The only way his salary matters is if it prevents them from signing a player. 

[TPlush]

1 hour ago, HarveysWBs said:

Indeed.  If @TPlush is correct, it would be impossible to ever overpay for anything, since you could always say, "well, that price is what the market would bear."  One party does not a market make.

You're twisting my words. You can overpay for a steak or a lightbulb or a garbage can. But a unique, talented, person who is compensated in the millions of dollars for their abilities, when there are only 30 positions total, what they get paid is the market rate. A rebuilding team wanted a highly experienced manager with a solid track record who's good at managing the clubhouse and understands analytics, $8 mil a year is where supply met the demand. One poster does not a genius make.