Update: Brandon Woodruff is non-tendered.

[homer]

Just now, wiguy94 said:

Worst thing about Counsell going to the Cubs is it has made the inferiority complex some fans have with the Cubs totally out of control. Just because Counsell went to the Cubs doesn't mean every ex-Brewer is heading there as well. 

Uecker and Bernie are next. Also Hank the Ballpark Pup.

[TBBrewCrew]

22 hours ago, Cool Hand Lucroy said:

Agreed. I hope the discussion was had. I thought Woody could accept a multi-year contract offer anytime, regardless of arb status. Maybe I'm wrong. And, yeah, maybe Woody says no, but you have to make the offer.

I would contend that every organization treats players like pieces of meat. And that's bad. The end of analytics is that players are assets and nothing more. Long-term that does bad things to the game. At some point, pure economic logic sinks baseball, not to mention that it's just wrong to forget these are humans.

Look, maybe the team was nice to Woody. That's good. All I'm sayings is: IF they didn't even try to avoid a nontender, that would be awful.

Me as I rub myself with a couple million dollars: "Oh no, they're treating me like a piece of meat."

Fans complain when the team doesn't spend enough. And then fans complain when the team gives out contracts to players that don't live up to the contract.

 

For all we know, the Brewers offered him a 2-year deal backloaded with a team option and he didn't want it. The thought that teams can just give someone $10million dollars to likely do nothing is a joke when you consider how many decisions teams have each year. If you universalized that kind of decision EVERY team would be bankrupt. 

 

It would be nice if players got compensated solely by performance. Play well, make a lot of money. But then they'd have to accept that if you suck, you get absolutely nothing. This is a much better system for the players. Every league and players union would agree.

edit: and this is as someone who LOVES Woody. I have a sizable collection of woody autographed cards. 

Edited November 19, 2023 by TBBrewCrew
added bottom

[Cool Hand Lucroy]

1 hour ago, TBBrewCrew said:

Me as I rub myself with a couple million dollars: "Oh no, they're treating me like a piece of meat."

Fans complain when the team doesn't spend enough. And then fans complain when the team gives out contracts to players that don't live up to the contract.

 

For all we know, the Brewers offered him a 2-year deal backloaded with a team option and he didn't want it. The thought that teams can just give someone $10million dollars to likely do nothing is a joke when you consider how many decisions teams have each year. If you universalized that kind of decision EVERY team would be bankrupt. 

 

It would be nice if players got compensated solely by performance. Play well, make a lot of money. But then they'd have to accept that if you suck, you get absolutely nothing. This is a much better system for the players. Every league and players union would agree.

edit: and this is as someone who LOVES Woody. I have a sizable collection of woody autographed cards. 

I'm done after this. We disagree, fine.

But the idea that volume of money means someone is being treated well is...not a good argument. Service time manipulation, low-ball arby figures, etc., all those are bad ways to treat people. That applies no matter how much you're paying someone.

Players take on WAY MORE risk than franchises in contract negotiations the VAST MAJORITY of the time. Teams are backed by billions of dollars. Even Mike Trout can't come close to that. The Brewers and Rays etc. have to play a different game economically, and I'm not silly enough to argue that point. All I'm saying is that pure financial value should NEVER be the ONLY factor involved in a contract negotiation. Everyone who argues that teams shouldn't sign Aroldis Chapman or whoever because of personal history makes the same argument all the time. Maybe the Brewers were super ethical and responsible in this case. Great! Maybe Woody would rather be an FA no matter what the terms of the contract. Great! I just didn't think it would be controversial to suggest my hope that the Brewers didn't simply just automatically non-tender the guy. An automatic non-tender would be bad. That's my entire argument. If I have to defend it this vociferously, then baseball's in worse shape than I thought.

[markedman5]

Sounds like the brewers decided to let him become FA rather than dealing him to a team that he might not have wanted to go to for a negligible return…….seems like they treated him fairly.

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2023/11/central-notes-woodruff-turnbull-cardinals.html

[TURBO]

2 hours ago, wiguy94 said:

Worst thing about Counsell going to the Cubs is it has made the inferiority complex some fans have with the Cubs totally out of control. Just because Counsell went to the Cubs doesn't mean every ex-Brewer is heading there as well. 

True, but it also doesn't mean that it isn't going to happen...

I can completely see them signing Woodruff, and pushing pretty hard to get Burnes. (Not 100% sure we'd trade him to the Cubs though, unless the overpay is quite substantial)

[wiguy94]

32 minutes ago, TURBO said:

True, but it also doesn't mean that it isn't going to happen...

I can completely see them signing Woodruff, and pushing pretty hard to get Burnes. (Not 100% sure we'd trade him to the Cubs though, unless the overpay is quite substantial)

Cubs biggest contract ever given out was $184M. Color me a non-believer that they will sign Burnes in FA when he'll get significantly more than that. No clue why people are acting like the Ricketts are Cohen and will just spend unlimited money in FA.

[sveumrules]

3 minutes ago, wiguy94 said:

Cubs biggest contract ever given out was $184M. Color me a non-believer that they will sign Burnes in FA when he'll get significantly more than that. No clue why people are acting like the Ricketts are Cohen and will just spend unlimited money in FA.

They spent pretty appropriately from 2016-20 coming in at 6th, 6th, 4th, 3rd and 5th per Cot's OD payroll ranks.

Of course to get back up to even 6th from 11th they would've needed to add another $50M last year, to crack Top Three they'd need to add another $70M.

[wiguy94]

13 minutes ago, sveumrules said:

They spent pretty appropriately from 2016-20 coming in at 6th, 6th, 4th, 3rd and 5th per Cot's OD payroll ranks.

Of course to get back up to even 6th from 11th they would've needed to add another $50M last year, to crack Top Three they'd need to add another $70M.

Yes and the Ricketts said they can't spend like that anymore.

[TURBO]

22 minutes ago, wiguy94 said:

Cubs biggest contract ever given out was $184M. Color me a non-believer that they will sign Burnes in FA when he'll get significantly more than that. No clue why people are acting like the Ricketts are Cohen and will just spend unlimited money in FA.

They got their "dream" manager apparently, now they will be giving him some toys.

I know there are people here who refuse to believe the Cubs aren't going to be better in 2024, but they are surely going to attempt to be a lot better.  It won't take a lot to compete for the division, as I doubt we can possibly be better without Woodruff and Burnes.  As I said in another post, all they have to do is win 5 or 6 more games than they did in 2023, and all we have to do is lose a few more, which seems inevitable unless we find a way to bolster our hitting and pitching, while staying under our 17th ranked payroll.

I want nothing more than to be wrong. but the writing is on the wall.

Don't forget about the damn Cardinals either.  They seem to be hunting down top notch starting pitching, which is what they really need to also compete for the division.

Unless we make some major changes in how we have done business in the past, we could easily finish 3rd or 4th in the division (depending on what the Reds decide to do) this season, and I truly believe that is a realistic view on the situation.

 

[wiguy94]

4 minutes ago, TURBO said:

They got their "dream" manager apparently, now they will be giving him some toys.

I know there are people here who refuse to believe the Cubs aren't going to be better in 2024, but they are surely going to attempt to be a lot better.  It won't take a lot to compete for the division, as I doubt we can possibly be better without Woodruff and Burnes.  As I said in another post, all they have to do is win 5 or 6 more games than they did in 2023, and all we have to do is lose a few more, which seems inevitable unless we find a way to bolster our hitting and pitching, while staying under our 17th ranked payroll.

I want nothing more than to be wrong. but the writing is on the wall.

Don't forget about the damn Cardinals either.  They seem to be hunting down top notch starting pitching, which is what they really need to also compete for the division.

Unless we make some major changes in how we have done business in the past, we could easily finish 3rd or 4th in the division (depending on what the Reds decide to do) this season, and I truly believe that is a realistic view on the situation.

Doomering before FA has even heated up. I don't understand how people can do this.

[TURBO]

1 hour ago, wiguy94 said:

Doomering before FA has even heated up. I don't understand how people can do this.

History man, history...

[wibadgers23]

1 hour ago, wiguy94 said:

Doomering before FA has even heated up. I don't understand how people can do this.

To be fair, we haven’t really signed anybody of substance since Cain in 2018.

[wiguy94]

18 minutes ago, TURBO said:

History man, history...

So with Brewers it's history, but with the Cubs you're giving them the benefit of the doubt that they are going to splash a ton of money...got it. Might as well get the doomering started for 2024 before we even hit January of 2024. Some fans will never be able to shake the inferiority complex.

[TURBO]

34 minutes ago, wiguy94 said:

So with Brewers it's history, but with the Cubs you're giving them the benefit of the doubt that they are going to splash a ton of money...got it. Might as well get the doomering started for 2024 before we even hit January of 2024. Some fans will never be able to shake the inferiority complex.

You think the Cubs aren't going to be improving now that they lured Counsell away from us?  It isn't thoughts of doom, it's pretty damn factual...

They WILL be players in free agency, you can bet on it.

[Sixtolezcano]

2 hours ago, wiguy94 said:

Doomering before FA has even heated up. I don't understand how people can do this.

The main reason people do this is because of how Attanasio and the Brewer FO has dealt with FA recently. I really don’t see the Brewers obtaining significant value in FA or even a trade similar to Contreras happening this off-season, unless you have solid information to the contrary. However, maybe Mark has changed his tune and things will be different.

[sveumrules]

11 minutes ago, TURBO said:

You think the Cubs aren't going to be improving now that they lured Counsell away from us?  It isn't thoughts of doom, it's pretty damn factual...

They WILL be players in free agency, you can bet on it.

They WILL be players in free agency, sure. Does that guarantee them anything in 2024 though?

Three of the biggest players in FA last offseason were the Yankees (Judge/Rodon/Rizzo for $602M), Mets (Nimmo/Diaz/Verlander+ for $497M) and Padres (Bogaerts+ for $379M).

All of them went from making the playoffs in 2022 to missing the playoffs in 2023 despite their FA expenditures.

[Brewcrew82]

25 minutes ago, TURBO said:

You think the Cubs aren't going to be improving now that they lured Counsell away from us?  It isn't thoughts of doom, it's pretty damn factual...

They WILL be players in free agency, you can bet on it.

That's not even what he's saying...

[Fear The Chorizo]

1 hour ago, TURBO said:

You think the Cubs aren't going to be improving now that they lured Counsell away from us?  It isn't thoughts of doom, it's pretty damn factual...

They WILL be players in free agency, you can bet on it.

They pretty much have to be to simply tread water- their 2023 Opening Day starting pitcher and their best hitter opted out and are currently free agents.

I do expect the Cubs to be an improved team from last year, but I have a hard time seeing them spending their way to 20+ more wins in one offseason to jump from a team hovering around 0.500 to a NL juggernaut.

[areacodes]

5 hours ago, Cool Hand Lucroy said:

I just didn't think it would be controversial to suggest my hope that the Brewers didn't simply just automatically non-tender the guy. An automatic non-tender would be bad. That's my entire argument. If I have to defend it this vociferously, then baseball's in worse shape than I thought.

It isn’t controversial for you to hope the Brewers didn’t just automatically non-tender Woodruff.  The reason so many are disagreeing with you is because there is no indication the Brewers did anything you are suggesting and ample evidence that they tried to sign him to a multi year deal and didn’t just trade him somewhere he didn’t want to be… you know, treating him like more than just a piece of meat.

[areacodes]

2 hours ago, TURBO said:

You think the Cubs aren't going to be improving now that they lured Counsell away from us?  It isn't thoughts of doom, it's pretty damn factual...

They WILL be players in free agency, you can bet on it.

Of course they could improve with Counsell but there are no guarantees they’ll all of a sudden start spending loads and loads more than they’ve done in the past.

Hell, for all we know the Rickett’s hired Counsell because he’s done less with more and they want him to do the same in Chicago.  Not likely but you never know.

[Underachiever]

I’m worried the Cubs will spend a lot of money like they did with Jason Heyward and Kosuke Fukudome. Maybe they can find the next Tyler Chatwood! 

[torts]

11 hours ago, Underachiever said:

I’m worried the Cubs will spend a lot of money like they did with Jason Heyward and Kosuke Fukudome. Maybe they can find the next Tyler Chatwood! 

Exactly!  They didn't solve their GM or owner problem, so I'm not too worried about them suddenly becoming champions 

[StearnsFTW]

I personally think Burnes is far more likely to sign with St. Louis than Chicago.

[Pugger]

On 11/18/2023 at 2:05 AM, Brewcrew82 said:

Because they don't want to pay $12 million to a guy to not pitch for one season? This organization has made its share of mistakes (though fewer than at any time in its history over the past 7-8 years), but between this, Bauers/Toro trades, etc. people are grasping at straws just to hate on MA here. It's getting so irritating. 

No, the reason this franchise will never win a World Series is this league's financial inequity.  We can draft and develop until the cows come home but can't keep most of them long term.  

[Redd Vencher]

4 hours ago, Pugger said:

No, the reason this franchise will never win a World Series is this league's financial inequity.  We can draft and develop until the cows come home but can't keep most of them long term.  

As long as they consistently get to the playoffs, they'll win a World Series at some point.