Packers 2024 Season Thread

[Joseph Zarr]

X just won the NFC Defensive Player of the Month award.

The last Packer safety to do that? S Atari Bigby. My goodness. That stings a little. Like, really?!? Man, the Savage years were lean in that defensive center field. 

[CheezWizHed]

9 minutes ago, Joseph Zarr said:

X just won the NFC Defensive Player of the Month award.

The last Packer safety to do that? S Atari Bigby. My goodness. That stings a little. Like, really?!? Man, the Savage years were lean in that defensive center field. 

It's been a very long time since we invested at safety, but using D-POTM seems like an odd metric to use. I mean, would you prefer to have Amos or Bigby (at their peak Packer days) back there at safety? 

[OldSchoolSnapper]

Bigby, haha. He was such an item for like, a month. Then he was like the most hated guy on the team. 

[adambr2]

About the best optimism I can offer is that this kind of has the feel of this time last year where we just clearly aren't in sync, aren't playing the football that we're capable of, just really a lot of young team struggles, only this year we are 6-3 instead of 3-6 or whatever we were at this time last year. So there's still hope that by the end of the season, much like last year, things will be clicking on all cylinders again. We were clearly a 2nd half of season team last year, hopefully the same is true. 

My hope was that this season we wouldn't see as many of those first half struggles as we worked through most of the initial growing pains last year. Unfortunately, progress is not always linear. 

[CheezWizHed]

Yes, we are still 6-3 and have half the season left.  We can take a bye, heal, and refocus.  Most teams have those stinkers where everything goes wrong... and it certainly felt like that yesterday. 

Love has an INT in every game he has played, so that really needs to be addressed.  His aggressiveness needs a good dose of game reality.  Brady actually pointed that out well in the game; when to take the shot, when to take the checkdown, when to throw it away and play field position game.  Love just seems amped up to "11" on pass aggression... too many bad throws in traffic, too many deep throws to covered receivers (yes, some he connected on but still poor choice), just too sloppy in protecting the ball.  We don't need Rodgers here, but we can't sustain the TOs he creates. 

Not sure what we do at MLB.  You almost have to put Wilson back there and use Walker as OLB or backup/rotation.  I think the defense suffers a bit with him as play caller too. Wilson might turn into a pumpkin, but at least you know.  Play the hot hand.  I think Barry's D suited Walker better though.  He clearly doesn't get off OL blocks well. With the DL single-gapping, it allows more OL penetration to the LBs and Walker doesn't avoid it well. 

DL needs to fix their run D.  Clark is doing his best disappearance act again and seems to have minimal impact.  Slaton has one job: be a big man that is hard to move, but he plays like he is on ice skates most of the time.  I guess we don't have anyone else big?  

OL needs to fix their stupid penalties.  We shouldn't have a SINGLE false start while playing at home.  We had a couple and were lucky we didn't get more as both Tom and Walker were jumping early almost every snap. 

[yourout]

I swear most NFL head coaches are freaking idiots when it comes to clock management at the end of games.

Absolutely no reason to leave 27 seconds on the clock and three timeouts in the Chiefs pockets at the end

[adambr2]

By the way, hate to be so blunt and direct in a personality criticism of our head coach, but does MLF not come off as a big baby anytime he comes off a loss and has to answer some tough questions? 

Does great after a victory with the softball questions. Not so much after taking an L. 

He complained about how annoying it is to sit there and answer questions about Jordan Love's performances. Uh, yeah, it's a pretty big talking point. 

It's their job to ask, man. I get that it's not the most fun thing to go do, but it comes with the territory. Especially in a game where maybe things lined up for him to not be such a great option this week. 

[BrewerFan]

10 hours ago, adambr2 said:

About the best optimism I can offer is that this kind of has the feel of this time last year where we just clearly aren't in sync, aren't playing the football that we're capable of, just really a lot of young team struggles, only this year we are 6-3 instead of 3-6 or whatever we were at this time last year. So there's still hope that by the end of the season, much like last year, things will be clicking on all cylinders again. We were clearly a 2nd half of season team last year, hopefully the same is true. 

My hope was that this season we wouldn't see as many of those first half struggles as we worked through most of the initial growing pains last year. Unfortunately, progress is not always linear. 

I'm waiting for the offense to get it together, but it's getting frustrating. Wicks was so reliable last year. 3rd and Wicks...

They're just out of Sync and it's not all on any one player, but Wicks has been struggling. The QB also has to give you a better ball. Kraft had a big 3rd or 4th down drop. 

I guess the upshot is they played so poorly, they missed a FG and dropped a TD, handed the Lions a TD and it was a 14-point game. 

 

The defense played pretty well. I don't recall who was on St Brown for the passing TD, but...I'm just not asking for much more there unless it's Jaire and it's asking a lot from Jaire. You play press man, you're turning and running with guys...when you face one of the best players at going up and getting contested balls, they're going to catch them. We're not getting blown away out there. Our DBs are in position. Valentine was good, Nixon, Stokes...they were all solid, but if you can't get a consistent pass rush, they're going to give up catches. 

 

 

But yeah, I'm with you, 6-3 and they've looked disjointed. Things should get better. 

 

The big issue is that...Detroit is just playing cleaner, smarter and more disciplined Football. 

[BrewerFan]

8 hours ago, CheezWizHed said:

Not sure what we do at MLB.  You almost have to put Wilson back there and use Walker as OLB or backup/rotation.  I think the defense suffers a bit with him as play caller too. Wilson might turn into a pumpkin, but at least you know.  Play the hot hand.  I think Barry's D suited Walker better though.  He clearly doesn't get off OL blocks well. With the DL single-gapping, it allows more OL penetration to the LBs and Walker doesn't avoid it well. 

DL needs to fix their run D.  Clark is doing his best disappearance act again and seems to have minimal impact.  Slaton has one job: be a big man that is hard to move, but he plays like he is on ice skates most of the time.  I guess we don't have anyone else big?  

These are the big issues. It's the DL #1, #2, #3. I really think the most obvious target for tomorrow should be Calais Campbell. Maybe a guy like Clowney. Two guys who can still get after the QB, they're cheap(Campbell is really cheap and still REALLY good). 

Slaton isn't playing with any leverage, he's getting turned and...then put on skates. Clark just looks old. He makes a couple of big plays here and there, but he's running on fumes. DL has to be the #1 priority. There are times where it appears the DL is playing 2-gap. I don't know if they are or if they're just playing that poorly. I mean, Hafley's defense is working, so maybe we should start considering he's not quite following the very basic rules. I don't think that's the case, especially when you watch Wyatt play. 

Cooper has been really good at taking on blocks and shedding, but then you lose his pass-rushing, he's ability to play in space. In theory, you're 3-4 MLBs are supposed to be bigger and more physical. This is why all the scouting reports say Hopper(for example) would not survive in a 2-gap scheme but had a chance at a if he went to a one-gap defense, but the 4-3 MLBs are the heartbeat of your defense. That's the player the offense identifies, they run an ISO, it's at the Mike, he's the guy who's supposed to play instinctively.

I don't really think either system is a better fit for Quay, I think Quay is playing on his heals, with less aggression and he's not reacting.

 

4-3 is similar to a RB. You have to read the hole and hit it. Quay waits too much, he doesn't want to take the wrong route and ends up making contact 7 years behind the LOS. I loved Quay's energy and his athleticism, but he's playing on his heels. 

 

Still, a lot of what a LB does is dictated by the DL. So whoever it is, they need better play from the IDL first. 

 

Bottom line, this time last year we were looking at picking in the top 5-10 and not sure how to evaluate Love. So...I'll take it. The offense starts putting up more points, converting, and less pressure on the defense, Hafley can create some of those more creative blitz packages and...hopefully, guys will step up the 2nd half of the year. 

[OldSchoolSnapper]

5 hours ago, adambr2 said:

By the way, hate to be so blunt and direct in a personality criticism of our head coach, but does MLF not come off as a big baby anytime he comes off a loss and has to answer some tough questions? 

Does great after a victory with the softball questions. Not so much after taking an L. 

He complained about how annoying it is to sit there and answer questions about Jordan Love's performances. Uh, yeah, it's a pretty big talking point. 

It's their job to ask, man. I get that it's not the most fun thing to go do, but it comes with the territory. Especially in a game where maybe things lined up for him to not be such a great option this week. 

It's just a show to publicly and definitively have Love's back. I don't think it's a big deal. It's their job to ask the questions, it's not his job to point out how bad he's playing and give them easy articles to write.  

[CheezWizHed]

7 hours ago, BrewerFan said:

Cooper has been really good at taking on blocks and shedding, but then you lose his pass-rushing, he's ability to play in space. In theory, you're 3-4 MLBs are supposed to be bigger and more physical. This is why all the scouting reports say Hopper(for example) would not survive in a 2-gap scheme but had a chance at a if he went to a one-gap defense, but the 4-3 MLBs are the heartbeat of your defense. That's the player the offense identifies, they run an ISO, it's at the Mike, he's the guy who's supposed to play instinctively.

Isn't your 1-gap/2-gap backwards?  If DL plays 2-gap, they are meant to occupy the OL and react to the gap where the RB heads toward.  One gap is attacking between the OL and focuses on penetration, but lets the OL decide if they need to block the DL or not. 

Being a LB, you want the DL to occupy the OL (2-gap) so you can fire through the gaps and make a play. So lighter LBs are typically used in 2 gap systems because they take on the OL less. 

Whenever you see Clark fire through the line and get 3 yards upfield towards the QB, but realize the RB went another way, the OL just let him fire through the gap so he could go block the LB. They rely on knowing the DL isn't going to get the RB because the play went a different way. 

One of the reasons Walker is struggling is because he is taking on so many OL this year and he clearly can't get off blocks. 

[Joseph Zarr]

Preston traded to da Steelers for a 7th Rd pick. Steelers assume all contractual obligations. I believe the Packers will have a nominal dead cap hit next season (I'm not entirely sure). So, in essence, recouping a 7th it would generally appear one could consider this as a QB Malik Willis for OLB Preson Smith 1-for-1 swap when all is said and done. 

[SeaBass]

46 minutes ago, Joseph Zarr said:

Preston traded to da Steelers for a 7th Rd pick. Steelers assume all contractual obligations. I believe the Packers will have a nominal dead cap hit next season (I'm not entirely sure). So, in essence, recouping a 7th it would generally appear one could consider this as a QB Malik Willis for OLB Preson Smith 1-for-1 swap when all is said and done. 

Milwaukee Journal Sentinel reporting the dead cap hit next season will be $5M.

"His pro-rated base salary of $3.2 million along with the remaining two years of his deal will now belong to the Steelers. The Packers will gain around $2 million in cap money this year, but Smith will count $5 million in dead money to the Packers’ 2025 cap next year."

[Joseph Zarr]

3 minutes ago, SeaBass said:

Milwaukee Journal Sentinel reporting the dead cap hit next season will be $5M.

"His pro-rated base salary of $3.2 million along with the remaining two years of his deal will now belong to the Steelers. The Packers will gain around $2 million in cap money this year, but Smith will count $5 million in dead money to the Packers’ 2025 cap next year."

$5Mil dead next year feels steep? Maybe I'm just old. Sigh. 😅

[Joseph Zarr]

Ken Ingalls chimes in:

 

[CheezWizHed]

I'm a little puzzled by P-Smith's exit.  He hasn't been great this year... but neither have our backups.  Enagbare probably steps into starting... but then we have Cox getting DE snaps as the 4th? Wooden?  

I do not understand the burning need to get rid of him...just impacting our depth.  One injury and we are in trouble at DE.

[yourout]

9 hours ago, Joseph Zarr said:

Ken Ingalls chimes in:

 

Wow. That's a lot of greenbacks.

[BrewerFan]

13 hours ago, CheezWizHed said:

Isn't your 1-gap/2-gap backwards?  If DL plays 2-gap, they are meant to occupy the OL and react to the gap where the RB heads toward.  One gap is attacking between the OL and focuses on penetration, but lets the OL decide if they need to block the DL or not. 

Being a LB, you want the DL to occupy the OL (2-gap) so you can fire through the gaps and make a play. So lighter LBs are typically used in 2 gap systems because they take on the OL less. 

Whenever you see Clark fire through the line and get 3 yards upfield towards the QB, but realize the RB went another way, the OL just let him fire through the gap so he could go block the LB. They rely on knowing the DL isn't going to get the RB because the play went a different way. 

One of the reasons Walker is struggling is because he is taking on so many OL this year and he clearly can't get off blocks. 

No...I'm not sure anymore. That was definitely the...prototype for a 4-3 vs a 3-4 for a long time, but I'm not even sure what defense we're playing. Go back and watch and you'll see Slaton on several snaps trying to 2 gap and hold the Guard or even line up over the C and a 0 Tech.

 

I know traditionally you wanted bigger, more physical 3-4 MLBers...but I can't really say with much confidence what they're looking at anymore. Take SF though. Warner is their MLB. 4-3, he's probably 220-225. He's not big. Devin White was a MLB. 

When reading the scouting report on Ty'Ron Hopper, the scouting report said 'due to his size and...something about inability to disengage, he'll have to go to a one gap scheme and "wouldn't survive in a 2-gap scheme."

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/891384-breaking-down-the-3-4-defense#:~:text=In a 3-4 defense there is no one,capable at fighting through traffic to the ball.

Quote

Job: The job of a MIKE or TED linebacker varies greatly from team to team, but the rules are the same. Your MIKE linebacker is the tackler. He’s the leader of the defense and the guy you want free to run down the football. The TED linebacker, on the other hand, does more to take on blocks and free up the MIKE linebacker to make plays. A TED linebacker will usually be a bit larger and not as fast.

Scouting points: Inside linebackers in a 3-4 defense are very similar to middle linebackers in a 4-3 defense, only bigger. Classically, a smaller player can be fine in a four-man front because he has two defensive tackles protecting him. In a 3-4 defense there is no one between the guard and the linebacker.

That's supposed to be the...qualities you look for in a MLB in a 1-gap and a 2-gap scheme...but I don't know. These aren't the days of Levond Kirkland anymore or Derrick Brooks are gone. Even in Chicago, Urlacher was the MLB and he was big, but he wasn't close to as good as Briggs at taking on Blocks. Meanwhile Ray Lewis was the best MLBer of the last 30 years...probably and he was a 220-pound kid who I'd say got up to 235 maybe a little bigger, but he was a 3-4.

 

So I'm actually not sure. What you're saying makes sense, but I think in the modern NFL you just need to be smart, instinctive, they want guys who can run you down East to West, playing the pass comes first.

Just play smarter, be more decisive and play physical. Quay is 6'4 ~235 anyway. He should be big enough. The issue is he's trying to go around blocks, not playing downhill and he's regressed.

[CheezWizHed]

10 hours ago, BrewerFan said:

No...I'm not sure anymore. That was definitely the...prototype for a 4-3 vs a 3-4 for a long time, but I'm not even sure what defense we're playing. Go back and watch and you'll see Slaton on several snaps trying to 2 gap and hold the Guard or even line up over the C and a 0 Tech.

 

I know traditionally you wanted bigger, more physical 3-4 MLBers...but I can't really say with much confidence what they're looking at anymore. Take SF though. Warner is their MLB. 4-3, he's probably 220-225. He's not big. Devin White was a MLB. 

When reading the scouting report on Ty'Ron Hopper, the scouting report said 'due to his size and...something about inability to disengage, he'll have to go to a one gap scheme and "wouldn't survive in a 2-gap scheme."

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/891384-breaking-down-the-3-4-defense#:~:text=In a 3-4 defense there is no one,capable at fighting through traffic to the ball.

That's supposed to be the...qualities you look for in a MLB in a 1-gap and a 2-gap scheme...but I don't know. These aren't the days of Levond Kirkland anymore or Derrick Brooks are gone. Even in Chicago, Urlacher was the MLB and he was big, but he wasn't close to as good as Briggs at taking on Blocks. Meanwhile Ray Lewis was the best MLBer of the last 30 years...probably and he was a 220-pound kid who I'd say got up to 235 maybe a little bigger, but he was a 3-4.

 

So I'm actually not sure. What you're saying makes sense, but I think in the modern NFL you just need to be smart, instinctive, they want guys who can run you down East to West, playing the pass comes first.

Just play smarter, be more decisive and play physical. Quay is 6'4 ~235 anyway. He should be big enough. The issue is he's trying to go around blocks, not playing downhill and he's regressed.

Don't confuse 3-4 vs 4-3 and 1-gap vs 2-gap.  Fritz Shumur ran a 4-3 but played 2-gap* but our defense now is currently 1 gap*.  I've seen different 3-4 systems that 1 or 2 gap*.

*Primarily 1 gap or 2 gap.  I know teams switch back and forth based on play, opponent, and situation, but most systems "major" in doing it one way and use the other way occasionally to surprise the offense.

[BrewerFan]

9 hours ago, CheezWizHed said:

Don't confuse 3-4 vs 4-3 and 1-gap vs 2-gap.  Fritz Shumur ran a 4-3 but played 2-gap* but our defense now is currently 1 gap*.  I've seen different 3-4 systems that 1 or 2 gap*.

*Primarily 1 gap or 2 gap.  I know teams switch back and forth based on play, opponent, and situation, but most systems "major" in doing it one way and use the other way occasionally to surprise the offense.

Every team is going to play some 2 gap. It's like a zone-blocking team like the Packers. They're not going to run all zone, they're going to double and run iso power runs.

But a 3-4 IS inherently a 2 gap and a 4-3 a 1 gap. And even that is going to be on early downs, not on passing downs as...that'd be rather pointless. 

The Wade Phillips, Fritz Shurmur defense's are the exception that proves the rule. Even then, I'm pretty skeptical that Fritz was running a 2-gap in GB. Maybe in LA with the Rams or earlier in his career, but with Reggie, Dotson, Jones?

 

 

But back to MLB...historically the 4-3's have been smaller, the 4-3 have been bigger, but again, Quay is large enough to play in either scheme. He's actually listed at 6'4 241. So I don't think it's a size issue. You question yourself and play on your heels, you're going to be blocked pretty easily. 

[BrewerFan]

22 hours ago, CheezWizHed said:

I'm a little puzzled by P-Smith's exit.  He hasn't been great this year... but neither have our backups.  Enagbare probably steps into starting... but then we have Cox getting DE snaps as the 4th? Wooden?  

I do not understand the burning need to get rid of him...just impacting our depth.  One injury and we are in trouble at DE.

Andy Herman was talking about Mosby. He had him as the 3rd highest-graded player in the Lions game.

 

The Packers clearly felt like those two, Mosby and Cox would provide more juice than Smith and the savings was worth it. I'd have loved to see another DT added, even just a guy like Davlin Tomlinson, but this is the group.  I hope I'm proven wrong or Slaton, Ford, someone can step up in the middle of the defense. 

[CheezWizHed]

19 hours ago, BrewerFan said:

But back to MLB...historically the 4-3's have been smaller, the 4-3 have been bigger, but again, Quay is large enough to play in either scheme. He's actually listed at 6'4 241. So I don't think it's a size issue. You question yourself and play on your heels, you're going to be blocked pretty easily. 

Yes, "typically" but every player is unique. There are small players that get off blocks and big players that get stuck on them.  Size is only one element to someone's ability. That is why (despite his size), I said Walker is probably better behind a 2 gap D where he isn't taking on OL as much. 

[BrewerFan]

4 hours ago, CheezWizHed said:

Yes, "typically" but every player is unique. There are small players that get off blocks and big players that get stuck on them.  Size is only one element to someone's ability. That is why (despite his size), I said Walker is probably better behind a 2 gap D where he isn't taking on OL as much. 

In a 2 gap, your LBs are ALSO responsible for 2 gaps.

In a 1 gap, your MLB is supposed to be responsible for 1 gap.

So no, the reason 4-3 defenses have smaller LBs is because they don't have the same requirements. 4-3 teams also tend to play more Tampa 2 and they want versatile MLBers. Guys like Urlacher...even the prototype, he was not good at taking ion blocks. 

 

That's why you'll see smaller, less physical LBs in scouting reports referred to as fits for one gap schemes, not 2 gap schemes. 

Some of this has been mitigated by how little teams play in a Base defense now, but in the base and vs the run, if you're a 2 gap team, your off-ball LBs are also 2 gap LBs. 

 

Either way...Walker has to be more decisive and he has to take on blockers better. He's been worse this year. Cooper has been pretty impressive though. Good technique. Taking on blockers and keeping the right arm free(usually the outside arm when he's playing the SAM, but wherever he's playing). 

https://www.bloggingtheboys.com/2014/6/25/5841992/playing-the-run-on-defense-1-gap-vs-2-gap-schemes

[sveumrules]

Kind of nice having the bye right around the midpoint of the season to assess where things stand.

Offense (25.6 PPG | 9th) and defense (21.6 PPG | 11th) have both been playing right around Top Ten levels.

Turnovers are a big plus on defense (19 | 2nd), but Love ripping off 10 INTs in only seven games has mitigated that somewhat and would be nice to clean up in the second half.

Rush offense has also been among the best in the league at 154.8 YPG | 3rd so far.

Looking at the remaining schedule the only surefire loss I see is at DET. I'd put SF and at MIN in the coin flip category. Pack should be favored in the remaining five so if they take care of business I'd say eleven or maybe twelve wins is where they end up.

[CheezWizHed]

47 minutes ago, sveumrules said:

Looking at the remaining schedule the only surefire loss I see is at DET. I'd put SF and at MIN in the coin flip category. Pack should be favored in the remaining five so if they take care of business I'd say eleven or maybe twelve wins is where they end up.

Surefire loss seems a bit overstated for Detroit.  Clearly underdogs, but still a winnable game.  Detroit showed themselves to be more disciplined, but not more talented.