Packers 2024 Season Thread

[Joseph Zarr]

Circling back to Saleh for a moment: Everything I have read is he is there through Thursday. There doesn't appear to be much else there beyond that? He is adding input on the offensive side of the ball and beyond that there doesn't appear to be anything more. I guess we'll have to wait and see.

[BrewerFan]

56 minutes ago, Joseph Zarr said:

Circling back to Saleh for a moment: Everything I have read is he is there through Thursday. There doesn't appear to be much else there beyond that? He is adding input on the offensive side of the ball and beyond that there doesn't appear to be anything more. I guess we'll have to wait and see.

I think he's just here to help put the game plan in. 

The coaches have the game plan in by Tues, they work on it for a couple of days, and by Friday they're just doing walk-throughs. 

It may also be a contractual issue. Something to that effect. If he's on the sidelines for a team on Sunday, the pay may be offset (I don't know if that's true). 

I'm happy just to have the guy around. Ideally he'd take on a bigger role next year, but he's too good of a coach. Had Saleh been available, he'd have been my #1/2 choice for DC...at the time. 

[BrewerFan]

3 hours ago, HarveysWBs said:

This year, unlike last year, he isn’t necessarily holding the ball and getting sacks, he is forcing the ball places it shouldn’t go, and his interceptions are way up. Currently, he’s tied with Mahomes for the most interceptions in the league despite only playing five games, while Rodgers and Purdy each have thrown seven picks.

I agree, he'll get the turnovers down. There have been a couple that have been just really poor luck, but he does need to make better decisions at times. 

The whole offense has been just a bit off. The DL has really struggled...and they're 5-2. 

This team has a whole other level or two to it. 

 

[LouisEly]

3 hours ago, SeaBass said:

Missing 7 extra points in five seasons sounds like a dream kicker compared to Carlson who has now missed 6 in 18 games.

Edit: Oops, forgive me, if we're including playoffs it's 7 extra point misses in 20 games.

That's funny, I don't see Carlson's name anywhere in my post.

I was refuting OSS's statement, "You need to be damn near 100% from inside 45 yards these days. You get to miss one kick like that a year. Two of them and they are looking at the waiver wire. Three and you are done."

[BrewerFan]

1 hour ago, LouisEly said:

That's funny, I don't see Carlson's name anywhere in my post.

I was refuting OSS's statement, "You need to be damn near 100% from inside 45 yards these days. You get to miss one kick like that a year. Two of them and they are looking at the waiver wire. Three and you are done."

We were REAL close and a nice save by Wheelan from missing another one from 45 also. 

Kicker's have to make the kicks, but that's still just 1/3rd of the process. We're a couple years in and this still is far from a well-oiled machine. 

And McManus misses that kick if Wheelan doesn't get the hold down...because...bad spot, and people would have said it was on McManus. 

 

Maybe Stokes or WR gets traded for a couple late picks to ensure you get the top LS and K next draft!

[OldSchoolSnapper]

13 hours ago, LouisEly said:

"Figures never lie, but liars figure."  

Chris Boswell has been PIT's kicker since 2015.  He's missed seven FGs under 40 yards and another 20 from 40-49 yards including 10 from under 50 yards since the start of the 2021 season.  And he's missed another 15 extra points including seven in the last five years.  PIT had a winning record in all but one of his seasons, and that year they were .500.

You might want to limit your analysis to kickers who have kicked for Green Bay, Chicago, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Buffalo, and New England (New York winters are relatively mild) to determine what the standard is.

The guy is over 90% 5 of his last 6 seasons lol

He had an uncharacteristically awful 2022 which accounted for the bulk of misses you cite. Frankly he is lucky they didn't dispose of him that year. Being 36/44 from 50+ will do that. Really he has spent the bulk of his career over 90 which is remarkable, and had 2 bad seasons bog things down.  

Morten Andersen is in the HOF with a career under 80% and not a single season at 90%. If you go to the generation after him, everybody is better. If you skip to this one, guys like Vinatieri and Vanderjagt would likely still be making it, but there's like 10 guys like that at any moment now. There are 12 guys over 90% this season, that's removing 3 players with 3 or fewer kicks. 

Anders career 82 would rank 25th in the league right now.

I don't think the issue with Anders is people having unrealistic expectations. He isn't good.  

[SeaBass]

9 hours ago, LouisEly said:

That's funny, I don't see Carlson's name anywhere in my post.

I was refuting OSS's statement, "You need to be damn near 100% from inside 45 yards these days. You get to miss one kick like that a year. Two of them and they are looking at the waiver wire. Three and you are done."

OSS quoted a comment by you that was directly tied to Carlson. My mistake if I misinterpreted the ensuing discussion to be relevant specifically to Carlson but it sure seemed that way to me.

https://brewerfanatic.com/forums/topic/43177-packers-2024-season-thread/?do=findComment&comment=1626095&_rid=4446

[OldSchoolSnapper]

I think the Packers would still be using Anders if he had missed one PAT. His FGs weren't great but they were acceptable for a first-year kicker.

But when you have 6 missed PATs, 7/13 from 40+, end the season on a playoff miss, then miss a gimmie in the preseason...you're not very good at anything. That's what did him in; he was a rollercoaster experience. If you are automatic from short and mid distance but weak in the leg, you can still get a job, or sacrifice some accuracy for power, but Anders wasn't giving you reliability in either way.

[homer]

FG% year by year in the NFL. Using only the chart below, guess when they moved the XP to the 15-yard line:

[homer]

When I first looked at the FG% improvement since 2000, my thought was "more domes."

Teams that moved from outdoor to indoor since 2000 (I count retractable as "indoor" ): LA Rams, LA Chargers, LV Raiders, Dallas, AZ Cardinals, Houston (expansion).

Maybe it's due to domes but seems like weather wouldn't impact a lot of these teams anyway. 

[Fear The Chorizo]

1 hour ago, OldSchoolSnapper said:

I think the Packers would still be using Anders if he had missed one PAT. His FGs weren't great but they were acceptable for a first-year kicker.

But when you have 6 missed PATs, 7/13 from 40+, end the season on a playoff miss, then miss a gimmie in the preseason...you're not very good at anything. That's what did him in; he was a rollercoaster experience. If you are automatic from short and mid distance but weak in the leg, you can still get a job, or sacrifice some accuracy for power, but Anders wasn't giving you reliability in either way.

His older brother is one of the best kickers in the NFL and he lost his first gig with the Vikings due to a bunch of missed FGs his rookie season.  

Carlson was more a victim of the Packers team getting really good faster than most expected - a playoff caliber team needs a reliable veteran kicker and not a developmental project.  The continuity issues between snapper and holder also are a factor in the kicking game right now, IMO.  

[Fear The Chorizo]

52 minutes ago, homer said:

When I first looked at the FG% improvement since 2000, my thought was "more domes."

Teams that moved from outdoor to indoor since 2000 (I count retractable as "indoor" ): LA Rams, LA Chargers, LV Raiders, Dallas, AZ Cardinals, Houston (expansion).

Maybe it's due to domes but seems like weather wouldn't impact a lot of these teams anyway. 

I think it's simply 'better playing surfaces'.  open air stadiums have more consistent sod/turf matrices compared to the painted dirt of years gone by when growing seasons end

[OldSchoolSnapper]

2 hours ago, homer said:

FG% year by year in the NFL. Using only the chart below, guess when they moved the XP to the 15-yard line:

% isn't the only story here though. 

Look at 50 yard attempts. That's a huge factor in %. The % would be a lot more noticeable if they were still making the same choices on attempts, but they aren't.

[Joseph Zarr]

Day 2 of The Saleh Era. Now wearing Packers gear. You love to see it:

[SeaBass]

5 hours ago, Fear The Chorizo said:

The continuity issues between snapper and holder also are a factor in the kicking game right now,

On what percentage of kicks? If this is as big a factor as you and others suggest then why haven't those guys lost their jobs? So far it's 2 kickers fired. Seems to me the team laid the majority of the blame on them.

[LouisEly]

9 hours ago, Fear The Chorizo said:

I think it's simply 'better playing surfaces'.  open air stadiums have more consistent sod/turf matrices compared to the painted dirt of years gone by when growing seasons end

I wonder if FG% on grass surfaces decreases as the game goes on.  Does the effect of cleats on grass/sod for the duration of the game and the subsequent chewing up of the field affect FG%? 

 

9 hours ago, Fear The Chorizo said:

Carlson was more a victim of the Packers team getting really good faster than most expected - a playoff caliber team needs a reliable veteran kicker and not a developmental project.

I don't disagree with this.  But it goes back to what I said earlier - free agent kickers don't want to come to Green Bay (or other outdoor, cold-weather teams).  And I don't know that many good kickers get to free agency very often.

[BrewerFan]

5 hours ago, SeaBass said:

On what percentage of kicks? If this is as big a factor as you and others suggest then why haven't those guys lost their jobs? So far it's 2 kickers fired. Seems to me the team laid the majority of the blame on them.

Well, they just cut their long snapper on...Monday. It was a procedural move, but they did so with absolutely no fear anyone else would claim him. They signed the top long snapper in the past draft. They've gone through multiple long snappers in the last several years and have seemingly looked under just about every rock for one.

And Wheelan was just a 1st year Punter who hadn't held much. He's gotten better.

But again, we JUST saw a terrible snap. You had Wheelan save a safety a couple games ago, you have him take one off the ground and get it down in time for McManus.

It's pretty obvious given the Long Snappers they've cycled through, they understand the problem...they just haven't found one.

Doesn't mean Carlson or Narveson haven't just missed, but if the ball is blocked, if the hold has the laces facing the kicker and the ball tilted left to right, if the snap forces the kicker out of his timing, they all add up to a bad operation. Multiple things can be true. 

 

[BrewerFan]

1 hour ago, LouisEly said:

I don't disagree with this.  But it goes back to what I said earlier - free agent kickers don't want to come to Green Bay (or other outdoor, cold-weather teams).  And I don't know that many good kickers get to free agency very often.

It feels like they almost never do. What's the TOP paid kicker? Roughly 6M. 

The FA class for kicker is not real impressive, two 40 year old kickers. Eddy Pineiro might be the best, he kicked for the Bears.

But even two years out, Daniel Carlson is the best and he's one of 3 kickers in 2026 that is a FA. If you're a kicker, you're good, it's not like betting on yourself is going to earn you another 40M GTD or 20M as a WR, DE, so who doesn't take the 5-6M extension? 

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/free-agents/_/year/2025/position/k/sort/contract_value

[SeaBass]

26 minutes ago, BrewerFan said:

Well, they just cut their long snapper on...Monday. It was a procedural move, but they did so with absolutely no fear anyone else would claim him. They signed the top long snapper in the past draft. They've gone through multiple long snappers in the last several years and have seemingly looked under just about every rock for one.

And Wheelan was just a 1st year Punter who hadn't held much. He's gotten better.

But again, we JUST saw a terrible snap. You had Wheelan save a safety a couple games ago, you have him take one off the ground and get it down in time for McManus.

It's pretty obvious given the Long Snappers they've cycled through, they understand the problem...they just haven't found one.

Doesn't mean Carlson or Narveson haven't just missed, but if the ball is blocked, if the hold has the laces facing the kicker and the ball tilted left to right, if the snap forces the kicker out of his timing, they all add up to a bad operation. Multiple things can be true. 

 

Yeah I'm not in love with the long snapper and I know they've been cycling through them for awhile, as they should. Whelan appears to have improved, he made a great play Sunday on that snap but he wouldn't need to be cut if, in theory, they wanted someone else to hold. Doesn't have to be the punter that holds (though it's probably preferred since it wouldn't drain practice time from another player's usual responsibilities).

[SeaBass]

My point about talking about bad snaps or holds is the team wouldn't hold the kicker responsible in those instances, regardless if an attempt still gets made and is added as a missed kick on the kicker's official stat line. I get bringing that point up in a discussion where folks are talking about misses and percentages but anecdotally I don't remember any actual instances of a botched snap or hold obviously affecting a kick to the point it was attempted and missed.

[BrewerFan]

1 minute ago, SeaBass said:

Yeah I'm not in love with the long snapper and I know they've been cycling through them for awhile, as they should. Whelan appears to have improved, he made a great play Sunday on that snap but he wouldn't need to be cut if, in theory, they wanted someone else to hold. Doesn't have to be the punter that holds (though it's probably preferred since it wouldn't drain practice time from another player's usual responsibilities).

What team in the NFL has had a kicker, punter AND holder? You used to have a QB hold...we don't do that any longer.

You're saying it hasn't been a big issue or "as big of an issue as some suggest," and thus why haven't they changed the LS and Punter/Holder.

You're acknowledging the LS issues, again, Wheelan was as I just said, a rookie last year, a guy who came from Ireland and Soccer. HE'S improved. 

 

I'm not sure how this is controversial. There's 3 aspects to a kick. Snap, hold, kick(4 with the blocking as we had blocked kicks last year as well). 

You're acknowledging they've been bad...so I guess I don't know what "that big of an issue," means. It's the NFL. We're talking about how bad 82% was. How that was unacceptable. We're not parsing out percentages for how many were strictly on the kicker vs the holder vs the long snapper, the unit blocking...

I don't know how to do that without lining up every kick and watching them. They seem like they were quite a bit better this year and specifically Wheelan, so I don't see a reason to use another roster spot on a holder specialist. 

If Rasheed Walker gets beaten, Love gets hurried, hit as he throws the ball, do we debate if the result was entirely on Love, Walker or do we say the unit was bad that play? Or even in that particular sequence, the OL was bad, that forced it?

If there's no pressure and Love throws the ball over the middle(I'm thinking of the Watson injury) do we say that one was on Love?

This is the ultimate team game. 

[SeaBass]

1 hour ago, BrewerFan said:

What team in the NFL has had a kicker, punter AND holder?

Wow, that's really how you took that. Really?

1 hour ago, BrewerFan said:

You're acknowledging the LS issues, again, Wheelan was as I just said, a rookie last year, a guy who came from Ireland and Soccer. HE'S improved. 

Yes, I understood you were talking about Whelan improving. I was countering the conclusion you made that when I said "why haven't the LS or holder lost their jobs" you felt I meant the punter, as holder, would be cut from the team. So I clarified. I even used the words "in theory" about choosing a different holder than the punter. Just because the convention now is the punter holds doesn't mean a team would want to cut an otherwise effective punter just because they desired a better option at holder. I'd think they'd see if there were another workable option on the roster already. Make sense? Again, "in theory" because I don't really think Whelan holding is an issue even if he had once had some struggles (which I don't recall but I'll take people's word for it).

As for the long snapper my assumption is they would replace him if they felt there were an obvious upgrade available. It makes sense to me that all things being equal they will hope for improvement and continue to monitor open market options as they become available. I don't feel I should have to say this to defend myself but it's apparently too much to ask to assume someone posting on a topic (me) has a basic understanding of existing roster situations.

1 hour ago, BrewerFan said:

You're acknowledging they've been bad...so I guess I don't know what "that big of an issue," means.

I went on to (essentially) say that issues with snaps and holds would not cause an NFL team to cut a kicker. My entire point is why are we even talking about bad snaps or holds when debating a kicker's performance? The team is judging the kicker's responsibility when the other parts of the process have met acceptable expectations. Therefore, "it's not that big of an issue."

[BrewerFan]

51 minutes ago, SeaBass said:

Wow, that's really how you took that. Really?

How else would you? Just teach someone else on the team how to do it? 

52 minutes ago, SeaBass said:

Yes, I understood you were talking about Whelan improving. I was countering the conclusion you made that when I said "why haven't the LS or holder lost their jobs" you felt I meant the punter, as holder, would be cut from the team. So I clarified. I even used the words "in theory" about choosing a different holder than the punter.

Because it's a specialist and what teams in the league do you see having someone else holding?

Malik Willis? He's never been a holder. Any other position player? And if they get hurt?

You anecdotally don't remember any bad holds. The playoff game=bad hold. 

54 minutes ago, SeaBass said:

My entire point is why are we even talking about bad snaps or holds when debating a kicker's performance? 

Because they're DIRECTLY related.

I don't know how to put that more plainly. 

See...you've turned this into a "why didn't they cut the LS, change the holder if they were issues." 

ASIDE from repeatedly saying they were ONE PART of the issue, not the whole issue, they tried to replace the LS and have done so numerous times. 

The Holder(again) was a 1st year punter who's improved.

You're still(somehow) viewing this as a binary choice. It's EITHER the LSer, Holder or Kicker and I'm trying to explain it's a unit.

So when you don't block Patrick Peterson off the edge and he takes it off the kickers foot=Not on the Kicker
When they get a push up the middle and block the ball=Not on the Kicker
When it's a bad hold vs the 49ers and the ball isn't placed right=not on the Kicker

When the kicker just misses it...it's on the Kicker. I can't come up with a simpler explanation as to why we'd be discussing other aspects of the kicking unit when talking about...missed kicks.

 

[GAME05]

On 10/23/2024 at 9:25 PM, BrewerFan said:

I think he's just here to help put the game plan in. 

I figure he just needed to talk out his firing and his career options with his good friend MlF, who just casually invited him to hang out at practice and that's all it ever was. Saleh notices some things and makes a few comments, because that's just instinctual for any NFL coach, and the media just takes it from there.

[Fear The Chorizo]

Finkel and Einhorn, Einhorn and Finkel....

LACES OUT!!

One of the reasons teams have gotten away from backup quarterbacks holding is to maintain continuity with that kicking unit (if #1 qb gets injured, backup isn't holding anymore) - but most importantly it's so that unit can practice together constantly.  Long snappers have the level of skill where good ones get the ball to the holder in the exact same position with laces in the exact right place for them to simply catch it and put the ball down in the perfect spot for the kick.  

Holders have to be able to make minor adjustments quickly, and do so with high/low or crooked snaps when it isn't perfect - if they can't accomplish that and the ball placement/position isn't consistent, the kicker's not going to be as consistent as his mechanics can allow him to be.