Packers 2024 Season Thread

[adambr2]

I get that with Narveson you were hoping to find the next Tucker, find the next Butker. Unfortunately usually you don't. 

McManus is an averagish "you know what you've got" kicker. And after the kicking debacles of the last year and a half I am fine with a guy like that rather than looking for the next great kicker. 

We don't need to have one of the best kickers in the NFL. We just need a kicker that you don't constantly worry is going to cost you a game. 

[Joseph Zarr]

1 hour ago, adambr2 said:

I get that with Narveson you were hoping to find the next Tucker, find the next Butker. Unfortunately usually you don't. 

McManus is an averagish "you know what you've got" kicker. And after the kicking debacles of the last year and a half I am fine with a guy like that rather than looking for the next great kicker. 

We don't need to have one of the best kickers in the NFL. We just need a kicker that you don't constantly worry is going to cost you a game. 

I agree. AND, I would politely 'argue' (I'm not arguing but it is worth sharing) McManus is actually much better than average. He is Top 10, historically, hitting from 50 yards and In over the past 15 years. That's in the upper 1/3rd of NFL kickers. He is hitting at a rate 8-9% higher than the League average in that pivotal range. Factor in he hit 69% his rookie year and 75 % his 4th year. In his career, he is hitting 91 % 50 yards and in. Narvsy, that beautiful lil fella, already missed 5 this season from that same distance. Crazy. 

[LouisEly]

47 minutes ago, Joseph Zarr said:

Factor in he hit 69% his rookie year

Exactly.  It rarely happens their rookie year, and would have been a big mistake to let him go.

[areacodes]

1 hour ago, Joseph Zarr said:

I agree. AND, I would politely 'argue' (I'm not arguing but it is worth sharing) McManus is actually much better than average. He is Top 10, historically, hitting from 50 yards and In over the past 15 years. That's in the upper 1/3rd of NFL kickers. He is hitting at a rate 8-9% higher than the League average in that pivotal range. Factor in he hit 69% his rookie year and 75 % his 4th year. In his career, he is hitting 91 % 50 yards and in. Narvsy, that beautiful lil fella, already missed 5 this season from that same distance. Crazy. 

If I heard correctly on the radio, they said he had as many misses from 40-49 in the last 6 years as Narveson had in 6 games.

[adambr2]

3 hours ago, LouisEly said:

Exactly.  It rarely happens their rookie year, and would have been a big mistake to let him go.

Tucker, Butker, and Aubrey were all over 90% in their rookie seasons. 

I think you'll find that in fact, most kickers who hang around long-term in the NFL do in fact have some success as rookies, and the ones who are hovering around 70% (Roberto Aguayo, for example) very rarely even get the benefit of the doubt enough to get another chance. 

[LouisEly]

50 minutes ago, adambr2 said:

Tucker, Butker, and Aubrey were all over 90% in their rookie seasons.

Butker was drafted by and released by the Panthers his rookie year before signing with KC.

[BrewerFan]

2 hours ago, LouisEly said:

Butker was drafted by and released by the Panthers his rookie year before signing with KC.

And Aubrey was a 28-year-old "rookie," who was a failed Soccer player who was working as a computer Engineer. 

I don't know that they should have stuck with Carlson. I thought they should have and then the last kick...well, that's on him, but I think you could make a strong argument.

7 hours ago, Joseph Zarr said:

I agree. AND, I would politely 'argue' (I'm not arguing but it is worth sharing) McManus is actually much better than average. He is Top 10, historically, hitting from 50 yards and In over the past 15 years. That's in the upper 1/3rd of NFL kickers.

Keep in mind he's kicking in Denver and he was ~55% from his career from 50+. 

Denver certainly helps add a couple yards to your FG%.

Mason Crosby was juust slightly better(and then he gets bonus points for the additional 55 and then 2 53 yard FGs in the final 2 minutes vs Dallas, one of which was negated by a late TO, but still pure). 

I think of Crosby as good, reliable, good bad-weather kicker...not necessarily a great long-distance kicker. 

But, he has been good from 40-49.

 

Still...really wish we could have seen Carlson with a better holder for a year, but oh well...

 

[igor67]

I'm inclined to think in the abstract having a more reliable kicker in the 40-49 yard range is more valuable than being those some few percentage points higher in the 50+ category. Which is to say that with the way offenses tilt I'd rather my team was motivated to get that extra 5 yards or so in the two minute drill and be near certain they are getting the points, compared settling for almost but it's still in 'range'

[SeaBass]

I don't understand the kicker defenders. The facts are Carlson and Narveson missed too many kicks and this team is a playoff contender if not a Super Bowl contender. When teams suck they have the luxury of being able to bring a kicker along and be patient with their struggles, even then I'm sure the coaches that are on the hot seat for those bad teams don't love it. If you don't want to squander playoff opportunities you look for upgrades. It's really that simple.

Despite Narveson's struggles I actually kinda liked him. I thought his kicks mostly looked good. He just missed too many kicks. I have zero regrets letting him go and upgrading that position. I don't care if Narveson goes on to be Justin Tucker, he wasn't helping us this season. The Packers need competence right now, not 2 or 3 years down the line.

I agree with the person that said you don't need to have the best kicker in the league, you just need someone that's going to make their kicks consistently. Missing 5 kicks in 6 games is the wrong kind of consistent.

Bottom line, if a player wants to hold on to his job they actually have to DO their job. The last two guys didn't.

[kestrel79]

Looking at those stats man would it be nice to have drafted TJ Watt right now...who did we take instead Kevin King?

[SeaBass]

13 minutes ago, kestrel79 said:

Looking at those stats man would it be nice to have drafted TJ Watt right now...who did we take instead Kevin King?

I think about that all the time as I'm sure many Packers fans do.

The Packers traded down from their #29 overall pick and selected Kevin King with the first pick of the 2nd round (#33 overall). TJ Watt was selected with the next pick #30 overall.

Cleveland also missed their chance at Watt with the #29 overall (as did the teams with the 28 selections prior) which they used to select David Njoku. The Packers also got a 4th round pick in that trade and selected Vince Biegel with the #108 overall selection. All in all not a great result.

[adambr2]

12 hours ago, LouisEly said:

Butker was drafted by and released by the Panthers his rookie year before signing with KC.

Right....in the exact same way that Narveson was with the Titans before he was with the Packers. 

And if he was on track to go 38 for 42 like Butker did as a rookie and wasn't 12 for 17, he'd still be a Packer. 

[homer]

On 10/16/2024 at 10:56 AM, adambr2 said:

TJ Watt and Myles Garrett are 1st and 2nd on that list and they're still getting to the QB. 

This. Watt has 11 pressures and 4.5 sacks. Garrett has 14 and 4. Gary has 7 and 1.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2024/defense_advanced.htm

 

(as an aside, Hutchinson had 28 pressures and 7.5 sacks. Goes without saying but that is a HUGE loss for DET)

[LouisEly]

8 hours ago, SeaBass said:

Bottom line, if a player wants to hold on to his job they actually have to DO their job. The last two guys didn't.

Carlson has the highest FG% (among those w/>1 attempt) in Packers history. 

So, either no kicker in Packers history has done their job, or people have unrealistic expectations.

8 hours ago, SeaBass said:

I agree with the person that said you don't need to have the best kicker in the league, you just need someone that's going to make their kicks consistently.

Agree 100%.  It's just not that easy, particularly in Green Bay.

Free agent kickers don't want to come to Green Bay.  (Or Chicago.  Or Buffalo.)  That's why they had to pay Longwell and Crosby top-of-the-market rate to stay in GB even though they weren't top of the market in FG%.

So, they either need to pay well above market rate (and the subsequent salary cap ramifications) to get someone to come to GB or they have to take their chance on a young kicker (like they did with Longwell and Crosby). 

Yeah, it's easy to say just throw a bunch of money at a kicker.  So, what position do you short?  People say the same thing about backup QB - why don't they have a good backup QB?!?  How much do you spend there, and what position do you short to have a good backup QB?

I agree with the principle.  In reality, it's not that simple.

[adambr2]

I think you could make a fair case that Anders had done enough to deserve one more year. I am fine that they went the McManus route. 

I legitimately think that the job was his until the chip shot miss at the end of the preseason and that was just the last straw. 

I think if they knew they'd get an average NFL kicker if they reached for one in the 4th round, they'd do it. Kickers coming out of college are just so hard to evaluate for some reason. You'd think the best kickers in college would always be the best NFL kickers, but college FG percentages never seem to translate to the NFL. 

You sometimes have 2nd-4th round kickers that wash out of the league quickly and undrafted kickers that go on to be Pro Bowlers. 

 

[homer]

I think success in the XFL (or USFL or UFL or whatever it's called) translates better than college

[HarryDoyle]

11 hours ago, igor67 said:

I'm inclined to think in the abstract having a more reliable kicker in the 40-49 yard range is more valuable than being those some few percentage points higher in the 50+ category. Which is to say that with the way offenses tilt I'd rather my team was motivated to get that extra 5 yards or so in the two minute drill and be near certain they are getting the points, compared settling for almost but it's still in 'range'

I don't know how MLF calls a game to give them the best chance to score but I would think they should target the 30 yard line as the almost chip shot field goal.

[BrewerFan]

10 hours ago, SeaBass said:

I don't understand the kicker defenders. The facts are Carlson and Narveson missed too many kicks and this team is a playoff contender if not a Super Bowl contender. When teams suck they have the luxury of being able to bring a kicker along and be patient with their struggles, even then I'm sure the coaches that are on the hot seat for those bad teams don't love it. If you don't want to squander playoff opportunities you look for upgrades. It's really that simple.

Despite Narveson's struggles I actually kinda liked him. I thought his kicks mostly looked good. He just missed too many kicks. I have zero regrets letting him go and upgrading that position. I don't care if Narveson goes on to be Justin Tucker, he wasn't helping us this season. The Packers need competence right now, not 2 or 3 years down the line.

I agree with the person that said you don't need to have the best kicker in the league, you just need someone that's going to make their kicks consistently. Missing 5 kicks in 6 games is the wrong kind of consistent.

Bottom line, if a player wants to hold on to his job they actually have to DO their job. The last two guys didn't.

I don't think I saw anyone defend Narveson...

I don't think I saw anyone complain about bringing McManus in as a Football player(as a person...the accusations add a whole other layer).

 

I don't even think I pointed out that for all the complaints about Carlson, he had a worse FG % last year than Anders Carlson as well as for his career. 

I DID point out that Carlson had to also deal with several very bad holds by a punter in Wheelan whose new to punting and struggled last year as well as some poor snaps.

I also pointed out that kicking in Green Bay is harder than most places and kicking in Denver is pretty well known to give kickers a couple extra yards.

 

And among all that, I said Carlson had the job won and he missed another short kick in the pre-season and it was his fault he was gone. 

Mostly, I just pointed out the unique and seemingly random backgrounds the best kickers in the NFL come from with Aubrey being a 28-year-old rookie, Butker getting cut, Daniel Carlson getting cut, Justin Tucker, maybe the best kicker ever not exactly being a dominant College kicker. This, however, was in response to why it's so hard to find a kicker who makes 85% of their FGs...especially in GB.

But again, didn't see anyone defend Narveson. I defended Carlson to a point, but blamed HIM for being cut. 

[BrewerFan]

On 10/17/2024 at 9:52 AM, SeaBass said:

I think about that all the time as I'm sure many Packers fans do.

The Packers traded down from their #29 overall pick and selected Kevin King with the first pick of the 2nd round (#33 overall). TJ Watt was selected with the next pick #30 overall.

Cleveland also missed their chance at Watt with the #29 overall (as did the teams with the 28 selections prior) which they used to select David Njoku. The Packers also got a 4th round pick in that trade and selected Vince Biegel with the #108 overall selection. All in all not a great result.

No, not a great result. It was a disaster.

I understood at the time why they did it, Ladarius Gunter vs Julio, Dom Caper's played a lot of man, Hayward, Tramon, Hyde had all left, Sam Shields career ended...but damn, it'd be nice to not only have the player, but the Badger.

Speaking of the benefit of hindsight, you swap out Gary for Dexter Lawrence and Joe Barry would still have a job. TJ Watt, Lawrence, even Barry wouldn't screw that up.

At least Gary's BEEN good most of his career. I think(or hope) he can at least figure it out, but the kicker situation is...really insignificant if the Packers DL can't figure out what the hell the problem is. 

4 1st rd picks, three high-paid players...and Karl Brooks and Enagbare are our two best players right now. Clark and Gary need to step up(and Wyatt needs to get healthy).

[SeaBass]

What I liked about Narveson was he was 100% on his extra point tries. Also when he did make kicks they were usually right down the middle. I almost want to say they all were right down the middle but I can't, I don't have that kind of memory. It just felt like to me his makes were really spot on and obviously his misses weren't. I don't have the same memory feel for Carlson's kicks, doesn't mean his were any worse, but Narveson's successful kicks just felt really good to me.

That's the rub with Carlson, if he did have a better % are you just quoting his FG attempts? Because clearly that's not the whole story, he missed multiple extra points. Just looked it up, he missed 6 FGs AND 5 extra points. 11 misses is not a small number. So really not interested in cherry picking only the field goals when that wasn't his only problem. Narveson made 84.8% of ALL his kicks. Carlson made 84.7%. Both deserved what they got.

McManus has never missed more than 3 extra points in a season his entire career. His FG% has fluctuated but as has been pointed out the majority of his misses are from 50+ yards. It sure seems reasonable that choosing him solves the Packers kicking problems for the near future and perhaps for a few seasons to come.

[adambr2]

I don't know who will remember this, but the Packers reached high for a kicker in 1997 to replace longtime kicker Chris Jacke. They went with Brett Conway who was a great college kicker from Penn State in the 3rd round. He was such a disaster in the preseason, he made Anders and Narveson look like Justin Tucker. They had no choice but to go with undrafted rookie Ryan Longwell instead and he in fact became their long-term kicker. 

Conway actually did go on to have somewhat of an NFL career, mostly with Washington but it was not particularly successful or particularly long for a kicker. 

[BrewerFan]

On 10/17/2024 at 8:21 PM, SeaBass said:

That's the rub with Carlson, if he did have a better % are you just quoting his FG attempts?

You mean was I using FG %(the stat MOST people use when talking about a kicker) after I pointed out nobody was defending Narveson in the post in which I said it was Carlson's fault he got cut, he's the one that blew the FG after he had a spot on the team locked up in a FAR larger discussion about why it's hard to find a FG kicker who hits the desired 85% of their FG attempts?

Why yes, I was using FG%.

 

If you want to talk about "the rub," that'd seemingly require a much larger conversation in which you also talk about the poor snaps and then the rookie Irish punter who came up playing Soccer and had several terrible holds in which Carlson...really didn't have a chance(the 49ers game for instance) or the blocked kick while citing a list of Kickers who struggled early and then went on to have long successful careers(McManus for example 69.2% as a rookie or how Crosby was 76% combined the first 6 years in the league or Daniel Carlson, Harrison Butker, guys who were cut and then became All-Pros with their next teams, or how Aubrey didn't start until he was 28 years old...

But that's less of a "defense," of kickers vs a general point about the difficulty in finding an elite kicker. Then adding the caveat that McManus hasn't exactly been a "great" kicker. And since you seem to be inferring there's this lengthy defense of Narveson or Carlson, where I to defend a kicker, I'd probably lean more heavily into the marginal difference between Carlson vs McManus and then cite the two SA allegations he's coming back from(Which is why he's a FA in the first place).

 

But again, by the time Carlson missed that last kick, I didn't see anyone still arguing they should keep him and I damn sure didn't see anyone argue they should keep Narveson...

 

On 10/17/2024 at 8:21 PM, SeaBass said:

So really not interested in cherry picking only the field goals when that wasn't his only problem. Narveson made 84.8% of ALL his kicks. Carlson made 84.7%. Both deserved what they got.

Right. And...who said it wasn't justified?

On 10/17/2024 at 8:21 PM, SeaBass said:

McManus has never missed more than 3 extra points in a season his entire career.

Ok. Again, I don't think anyone said he hasn't been more reliable from shorter distances.

 

This is the STRONGEST "kicker defending," I've seen on here were these two comments;

On 10/16/2024 at 6:31 PM, LouisEly said:

Exactly.  It rarely happens their rookie year, and would have been a big mistake to let him go.

and;

On 10/17/2024 at 12:29 AM, BrewerFan said:

 

Still...really wish we could have seen Carlson with a better holder for a year, but oh well...

 

That's...as close to a "defense," of a kicker as you can get. That an Adambr talking about how College kicking doesn't translate to the NFL...for some reason(which he's right, it doesn't...though you'd think if it did at any position, that'd be the one).

 

If you could show me who was upset about Narveson getting cut, that might help jog my memory a bit. The Carlson thing, that was over in the final preseason game...which I also think Adambr said and whose opnion I think most agreed with;

 

On 10/17/2024 at 4:23 PM, adambr2 said:

I think you could make a fair case that Anders had done enough to deserve one more year. I am fine that they went the McManus route. 

I legitimately think that the job was his until the chip shot miss at the end of the preseason and that was just the last straw. 

I haven't really seen anyone with a different take here. I did express some skeptiscm regarding one stat I saw about how good McManus had been, the "He is Top 10, historically, hitting from 50 yards and In over the past 15 years. That's in the upper 1/3rd of NFL kickers." -state which I didn't quite understand but all I did was point out Crosby was better from 50+ and Denver is OBVIOUSLY an easier place to kick long FGs as I believe all of the 10 longest kicks were either in Denver or in domes. Still not really a defense of kickers.

 

 

Actually...I'd argue you were "defending," McManus more than anyone has defended Narveson by putting equal weight into FG and PATs when one is worth 3X the points plus the field position, but maybe you took the extensive and various backgrounds of the top kickers as some sort of defense....I really don't know.

 

I do certainly hope McManus can come in and be better than he was the last couple years so they can turn their attention on more important areas of need like our DL. 

[BrewerFan]

On 10/17/2024 at 9:14 PM, adambr2 said:

I don't know who will remember this, but the Packers reached high for a kicker in 1997 to replace longtime kicker Chris Jacke. They went with Brett Conway who was a great college kicker from Penn State in the 3rd round. He was such a disaster in the preseason, he made Anders and Narveson look like Justin Tucker. They had no choice but to go with undrafted rookie Ryan Longwell instead and he in fact became their long-term kicker. 

Conway actually did go on to have somewhat of an NFL career, mostly with Washington but it was not particularly successful or particularly long for a kicker. 

Brett Conway...picked on slot before Mike Vrabel...and not long after a long, lanky DE from Akron. 

The last kicker I remember hoping the Packers would take was Jake Moody, but I was thinking 5th/6th, not end of 3rd...or maybe early 4th where SF took him. 

But the Brett Conway and BJ Sander picks...we gave up #102 and a 5th. Jared Allen was taken in the 4th after the Packers pick in a year we needed DL help and SF took Adam Lee, a 3X All Pro Kicker in the late 6th that year.
Who knows what Vrabel would have been, but Jason Taylor was so good, then add Jared Allen...hell, you might win another Super Bowl. Packers fans understand the importance of three positions above all others. QB and pass rusher or a great LT. Give us Jason Taylor, Jared Allen, Mike Vrabel with Ahman Green, the run game back then?

This is why I'd trade multiple 1sts for either Crosby, Garrett or Dexter Lawrence who...definitely isn't available now, but none of them likely are, but with the DBs we have, it'd be fun!

 

Anyway...kickers, we've taken them for granted until they've been bad. Crosby the one year, then he hit damn near 40 in a row(he may actually have hit 40 in a row if you include playoffs) and then this past year+6 games. I wonder how many more games we win if we have Aubrey? 

 

Just going back and looking at the games that Carlson and the kicking unit MAY have cost us(I say may because...the Philly game for example, you can't say the 2 missed FGs cost you the game because...Philly is now trying to score late, so just potentially). 

Just 2023 season;
Den 19 GB 17
Carlson missed 43 YD FG (Just missed it, good snap, good enough hold...I saw someone say laces were out on X attempts, but 43, it looked clean).

Pitt 23 GB 19
Blocked PAT by PPat(came clean off the edge).
Packers were well in FG position with 3 seconds left from the Pitt 16 and Love threw his 2nd pick in the final ~3;50 of the game.

NYG 24 GB 22
Missed 48 Wide right. Definitely a clean hold, high snap...routine though.
Packers scored a TD late, missed the two point to make it 24-21
Giants hit Game Winner as time expired to win 24-22

GB 33 Car 30
(not part of the equation, just watching all the missed kids, another terrible snap, missed a PAT...still won).

SF 24 GB 21
Miss 41 yd FG to make it 24-17 with 6:18 left
Terrible hold. Ball laces in, ball tilted side to side

 

I'm just going to say "the kicking game," not put it on just the kicker, snapper, holder or blockers, but last year you have the Denver Game.
Pitt Game should have been at least a tied game late
Giants Game
SF Game

So...lots of things could happen. With SF, worst case is the Packers get the ball back tied. 

I'll say 11-6 and they're in the NFCCG with a better FG unit.

Again, once he missed the kick in TC, I knew he was getting cut, but going back and watching these...I do think he'll be a good NFL kicker. 

Among other missed kicks, here was a 63-yarder, a couple from 50+.

The main issue was the 40-49 and PATs.

I'll double down and say it's too bad he wasn't kicking with this unit after another year as I thought his mistakes were correctable. 

 

But I just made this to see how much the kicks actually cost us. So that's 2 regular season games(you could also say a tie, so 11-5-1 with the Steelers loss) and the playoff game..

 

All of Carlson's missed kicks(just search it on YT, there's a couple views, one gives a good view).

[duewizard]

6 hours ago, BrewerFan said:

Brett Conway...picked on slot before Mike Vrabel...and not long after a long, lanky DE from Akron. 

The last kicker I remember hoping the Packers would take was Jake Moody, but I was thinking 5th/6th, not end of 3rd...or maybe early 4th where SF took him. 

But the Brett Conway and BJ Sander picks...we gave up #102 and a 5th. Jared Allen was taken in the 4th after the Packers pick in a year we needed DL help and SF took Adam Lee, a 3X All Pro Kicker in the late 6th that year.
Who knows what Vrabel would have been, but Jason Taylor was so good, then add Jared Allen...hell, you might win another Super Bowl. Packers fans understand the importance of three positions above all others. QB and pass rusher or a great LT. Give us Jason Taylor, Jared Allen, Mike Vrabel with Ahman Green, the run game back then?

This is why I'd trade multiple 1sts for either Crosby, Garrett or Dexter Lawrence who...definitely isn't available now, but none of them likely are, but with the DBs we have, it'd be fun!

 

Anyway...kickers, we've taken them for granted until they've been bad. Crosby the one year, then he hit damn near 40 in a row(he may actually have hit 40 in a row if you include playoffs) and then this past year+6 games. I wonder how many more games we win if we have Aubrey? 

 

Just going back and looking at the games that Carlson and the kicking unit MAY have cost us(I say may because...the Philly game for example, you can't say the 2 missed FGs cost you the game because...Philly is now trying to score late, so just potentially). 

Just 2023 season;
Den 19 GB 17
Carlson missed 43 YD FG (Just missed it, good snap, good enough hold...I saw someone say laces were out on X attempts, but 43, it looked clean).

Pitt 23 GB 19
Blocked PAT by PPat(came clean off the edge).
Packers were well in FG position with 3 seconds left from the Pitt 16 and Love threw his 2nd pick in the final ~3;50 of the game.

NYG 24 GB 22
Missed 48 Wide right. Definitely a clean hold, high snap...routine though.
Packers scored a TD late, missed the two point to make it 24-21
Giants hit Game Winner as time expired to win 24-22

GB 33 Car 30
(not part of the equation, just watching all the missed kids, another terrible snap, missed a PAT...still won).

SF 24 GB 21
Miss 41 yd FG to make it 24-17 with 6:18 left
Terrible hold. Ball laces in, ball tilted side to side

 

I'm just going to say "the kicking game," not put it on just the kicker, snapper, holder or blockers, but last year you have the Denver Game.
Pitt Game should have been at least a tied game late
Giants Game
SF Game

So...lots of things could happen. With SF, worst case is the Packers get the ball back tied. 

I'll say 11-6 and they're in the NFCCG with a better FG unit.

Again, once he missed the kick in TC, I knew he was getting cut, but going back and watching these...I do think he'll be a good NFL kicker. 

Among other missed kicks, here was a 63-yarder, a couple from 50+.

The main issue was the 40-49 and PATs.

I'll double down and say it's too bad he wasn't kicking with this unit after another year as I thought his mistakes were correctable. 

 

But I just made this to see how much the kicks actually cost us. So that's 2 regular season games(you could also say a tie, so 11-5-1 with the Steelers loss) and the playoff game..

 

All of Carlson's missed kicks(just search it on YT, there's a couple views, one gives a good view).

Im piggy-backing off you just to continue banging my "Orzech is not it" drum. Bad snaps regularly enough to be noticeable. Coverage in punts doesn't seem stellar. Almost cost us a safety in a punt the other day.

Peter Bowden my sweet prince I miss you.

[BrewerFan]

3 hours ago, duewizard said:

Im piggy-backing off you just to continue banging my "Orzech is not it" drum. Bad snaps regularly enough to be noticeable. Coverage in punts doesn't seem stellar. Almost cost us a safety in a punt the other day.

Peter Bowden my sweet prince I miss you.

Yeah, was that last week or two weeks ago where Wheelan had to jump and snatch it at the ~5 or so? 

It falls on the kicker, but it's a whole unit. They got rid of Bowden pretty early and then brought him back in during camp....presumably because Orzech was struggling. 

 

I don't know what the answer is. The Packers went out and got an elite Special Teams coach. They dedicate roster spots to special teams. You'd think....we'd finally have a great STs We don't. I don't know how they stack up in the "rankings," though...this one in particular has them 3rd. The one that Rick Gosselin does placed us at 29 last year. That needs to be better by this point.