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Miguel Cabrera wins the Triple Crown


Invader3K

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I think it makes him the MVP. I would disagree with the choice though.

 

The RBI's is the stat that is the worst since it relies almost entirely on position in the batting order. 3-4-5 hitters are going to have way more chances over an entire season to hit with guys on base. Middle of the order hitters on bad teams routinely get many RBI's.

 

Nice accomplishment though.

Fan is short for fanatic.

I blame Wang.

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You can say it's an outdated stat, but as the first winner in 45 years, I think it's worth discussing. Will it make him the AL MVP? I have no idea. A .330 season with 44 homers and 139 RBIs is quite impressive.

This is how I feel about it. Pretty cool, even if it's an older concept.

 

Is there anywhere that lists winners of the so-called modern triple crown (BA/OBP/SLG)?

Stearns Brewing Co.: Sustainability from farm to plate
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You can say it's an outdated stat, but as the first winner in 45 years, I think it's worth discussing. Will it make him the AL MVP? I have no idea. A .330 season with 44 homers and 139 RBIs is quite impressive.

This is how I feel about it. Pretty cool, even if it's an older concept.

 

Is there anywhere that lists winners of the so-called modern triple crown (BA/OBP/SLG)?

 

 

Incredible accomplishment by Cabrera. I've said in the other thread that I absolutely think Trout should be MVP, but I want to be clear how great of an accomplishment I think this is. Just look at the list. All HOFers.

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You can say it's an outdated stat, but as the first winner in 45 years, I think it's worth discussing. Will it make him the AL MVP? I have no idea. A .330 season with 44 homers and 139 RBIs is quite impressive.

This is how I feel about it. Pretty cool, even if it's an older concept.

 

Is there anywhere that lists winners of the so-called modern triple crown (BA/OBP/SLG)?

That is a good question. I couldn't find a site that did it so I just dumped each one of these tables into Excel:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/batting_avg_leagues.shtml

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/onbase_perc_leagues.shtml

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/slugging_perc_leagues.shtml

 

National League "Modern Day Triple Crown"

Year National League BA National League2 OBP National League3 SLG Triple Crown?

2004 Barry Bonds *  (SFG) 0.362 Barry Bonds *  (SFG) 0.609 Barry Bonds *  (SFG) 0.812 Yes

2002 Barry Bonds *  (SFG) 0.37 Barry Bonds *  (SFG) 0.582 Barry Bonds *  (SFG) 0.799 Yes

2000 Todd Helton *  (COL) 0.372 Todd Helton *  (COL) 0.463 Todd Helton *  (COL) 0.698 Yes

1999 Larry Walker *  (COL) 0.379 Larry Walker *  (COL) 0.458 Larry Walker *  (COL) 0.71 Yes

1948 Stan Musial+ *  (STL) 0.376 Stan Musial+ *  (STL) 0.45 Stan Musial+ *  (STL) 0.702 Yes

1943 Stan Musial+ *  (STL) 0.357 Stan Musial+ *  (STL) 0.425 Stan Musial+ *  (STL) 0.562 Yes

1935 Arky Vaughan+ *  (PIT) 0.385 Arky Vaughan+ *  (PIT) 0.491 Arky Vaughan+ *  (PIT) 0.607 Yes

1933 Chuck Klein+ *  (PHI) 0.368 Chuck Klein+ *  (PHI) 0.422 Chuck Klein+ *  (PHI) 0.602 Yes

1928 Rogers Hornsby+   (BSN) 0.387 Rogers Hornsby+   (BSN) 0.498 Rogers Hornsby+   (BSN) 0.632 Yes

1925 Rogers Hornsby+   (STL) 0.403 Rogers Hornsby+   (STL) 0.489 Rogers Hornsby+   (STL) 0.756 Yes

1924 Rogers Hornsby+   (STL) 0.424 Rogers Hornsby+   (STL) 0.507 Rogers Hornsby+   (STL) 0.696 Yes

1923 Rogers Hornsby+   (STL) 0.384 Rogers Hornsby+   (STL) 0.459 Rogers Hornsby+   (STL) 0.627 Yes

1922 Rogers Hornsby+   (STL) 0.401 Rogers Hornsby+   (STL) 0.459 Rogers Hornsby+   (STL) 0.722 Yes

1921 Rogers Hornsby+   (STL) 0.397 Rogers Hornsby+   (STL) 0.458 Rogers Hornsby+   (STL) 0.639 Yes

1920 Rogers Hornsby+   (STL) 0.37 Rogers Hornsby+   (STL) 0.431 Rogers Hornsby+   (STL) 0.559 Yes

1910 Sherry Magee   (PHI) 0.331 Sherry Magee   (PHI) 0.445 Sherry Magee   (PHI) 0.507 Yes

1909 Honus Wagner+   (PIT) 0.339 Honus Wagner+   (PIT) 0.42 Honus Wagner+   (PIT) 0.489 Yes

1908 Honus Wagner+   (PIT) 0.354 Honus Wagner+   (PIT) 0.415 Honus Wagner+   (PIT) 0.542 Yes

1907 Honus Wagner+   (PIT) 0.35 Honus Wagner+   (PIT) 0.408 Honus Wagner+   (PIT) 0.513 Yes

1904 Honus Wagner+   (PIT) 0.349 Honus Wagner+   (PIT) 0.423 Honus Wagner+   (PIT) 0.52 Yes

1883 Dan Brouthers+ *  (BUF) 0.374 Dan Brouthers+ *  (BUF) 0.397 Dan Brouthers+ *  (BUF) 0.572 Yes

1882 Dan Brouthers+ *  (BUF) 0.368 Dan Brouthers+ *  (BUF) 0.403 Dan Brouthers+ *  (BUF) 0.547 Yes

1880 George Gore *  (CHC) 0.36 George Gore *  (CHC) 0.399 George Gore *  (CHC) 0.463 Yes

1876 Ross Barnes   (CHC) 0.429 Ross Barnes   (CHC) 0.462 Ross Barnes   (CHC) 0.59 Yes

1873 Ross Barnes   (BOS) 0.431 Ross Barnes   (BOS) 0.465 Ross Barnes   (BOS) 0.616 Yes

1871 Levi Meyerle   (ATH) 0.492 Levi Meyerle   (ATH) 0.5 Levi Meyerle   (ATH) 0.7 Yes

 

American League

Year American League BA American League2 OBP American League3 SLG Triple Crown?

2009 Joe Mauer *  (MIN) 0.365 Joe Mauer *  (MIN) 0.444 Joe Mauer *  (MIN) 0.587 Yes

1980 George Brett+ *  (KCR) 0.39 George Brett+ *  (KCR) 0.454 George Brett+ *  (KCR) 0.664 Yes

1979 Fred Lynn *  (BOS) 0.333 Fred Lynn *  (BOS) 0.423 Fred Lynn *  (BOS) 0.637 Yes

1967 Carl Yastrzemski+ *  (BOS) 0.326 Carl Yastrzemski+ *  (BOS) 0.418 Carl Yastrzemski+ *  (BOS) 0.622 Yes

1966 Frank Robinson+   (BAL) 0.316 Frank Robinson+   (BAL) 0.41 Frank Robinson+   (BAL) 0.637 Yes

1957 Ted Williams+ *  (BOS) 0.388 Ted Williams+ *  (BOS) 0.526 Ted Williams+ *  (BOS) 0.731 Yes

1948 Ted Williams+ *  (BOS) 0.369 Ted Williams+ *  (BOS) 0.497 Ted Williams+ *  (BOS) 0.615 Yes

1947 Ted Williams+ *  (BOS) 0.343 Ted Williams+ *  (BOS) 0.499 Ted Williams+ *  (BOS) 0.634 Yes

1942 Ted Williams+ *  (BOS) 0.356 Ted Williams+ *  (BOS) 0.499 Ted Williams+ *  (BOS) 0.648 Yes

1941 Ted Williams+ *  (BOS) 0.406 Ted Williams+ *  (BOS) 0.553 Ted Williams+ *  (BOS) 0.735 Yes

1938 Jimmie Foxx+   (BOS) 0.349 Jimmie Foxx+   (BOS) 0.462 Jimmie Foxx+   (BOS) 0.704 Yes

1934 Lou Gehrig+ *  (NYY) 0.363 Lou Gehrig+ *  (NYY) 0.465 Lou Gehrig+ *  (NYY) 0.706 Yes

1924 Babe Ruth+ *  (NYY) 0.378 Babe Ruth+ *  (NYY) 0.513 Babe Ruth+ *  (NYY) 0.739 Yes

1917 Ty Cobb+ *  (DET) 0.383 Ty Cobb+ *  (DET) 0.444 Ty Cobb+ *  (DET) 0.57 Yes

1916 Tris Speaker+ *  (CLE) 0.386 Tris Speaker+ *  (CLE) 0.47 Tris Speaker+ *  (CLE) 0.502 Yes

1914 Ty Cobb+ *  (DET) 0.368 Ty Cobb+ *  (DET) 0.466 Ty Cobb+ *  (DET) 0.513 Yes

1909 Ty Cobb+ *  (DET) 0.377 Ty Cobb+ *  (DET) 0.431 Ty Cobb+ *  (DET) 0.517 Yes

1906 George Stone *  (SLB) 0.358 George Stone *  (SLB) 0.417 George Stone *  (SLB) 0.501 Yes

1904 Nap Lajoie+   (CLE) 0.376 Nap Lajoie+   (CLE) 0.413 Nap Lajoie+   (CLE) 0.546 Yes

1901 Nap Lajoie+   (PHA) 0.426 Nap Lajoie+   (PHA) 0.463 Nap Lajoie+   (PHA) 0.643 Yes

1891 Dan Brouthers+ *  (BOS) 0.35 Dan Brouthers+ *  (BOS) 0.471 Dan Brouthers+ *  (BOS) 0.512 Yes

1887 Tip O'Neill   (STL) 0.435 Tip O'Neill   (STL) 0.49 Tip O'Neill   (STL) 0.691 Yes

1882 Pete Browning   (LOU) 0.378 Pete Browning   (LOU) 0.43 Pete Browning   (LOU) 0.51 Yes

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Is there anywhere that lists winners of the so-called modern triple crown (BA/OBP/SLG)?

That is a good question. I couldn't find a site that did it so I just dumped each one of these tables into Excel:

Wow! Thanks for doing the grunt work on that. Cool to see the results.

Stearns Brewing Co.: Sustainability from farm to plate
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The Cabrera/Trout thing is getting like one of those fake ESPN controversies. In my opinion, 'archaic stats' or not, winning the Triple Crown and going to the playoffs gets Cabrera the award going away. Obviously, Trout had a phenomenal year, and I'm a huge fan (had him in fantasy), but OBP, steals and defense aren't going to get him the award. Cabrera did something that hasn't been accomplished during most of our lifetimes. Another thing that people haven't been talking about is that Trout tailed off a bit down the stretch, pretty much coinciding with the Angels' swoon, while Cabrera was outstanding in leading the Tigers to the division title from behind. A no-brainer if you ask me.
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It's a nice accomplishment but since the MVP includes such things as playing defense and running bases, I would give the award to Mike Trout.

 

What makes Trout's 49 SB's even more impressive is that he was caught stealing only 5 times!

 

Trout also had a higher OPS+. And to those who say that Miggy lead his team to the playoffs--the Angels actually won more games than the Tigers. It's not Trout's fault that the Angels played in a stronger division.

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I agree with RockCoCougars. Wasn't going to post, but couldn't leave you hanging out there by yourself man.

 

In addition to what he said ... You do something that only 13 others have ever done. That includes names like Williams, Mantle, Gehrig, Cobb, Hornsby, Foxx, Yastrzemski, Robinson. 11 of the 13 are in the Hall of Fame. You win the MVP.

 

Yes, I do understand WAR and whatever new advanced stat calculation you want to throw out there. I don't care about them in this case.

 

Besides, Cabrera wasn't that bad on defense. He only had 13 errors and was 2nd in the league in DP's turned by 3B. At a position he wasn't playing last year ... "but, but, his range factor" ... Yeah, again, don't care about that in this case.

 

Trout's consolation prize is winning the ROY award, by a wide margin.

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I agree with RockCoCougars. Wasn't going to post, but couldn't leave you hanging out there by yourself man.

 

In addition to what he said ... You do something that only 13 others have ever done. That includes names like Williams, Mantle, Gehrig, Cobb, Hornsby, Foxx, Yastrzemski, Robinson. 11 of the 13 are in the Hall of Fame. You win the MVP.

 

Yes, I do understand WAR and whatever new advanced stat calculation you want to throw out there. I don't care about them in this case.

 

Besides, Cabrera wasn't that bad on defense. He only had 13 errors and was 2nd in the league in DP's turned by 3B. At a position he wasn't playing last year ... "but, but, his range factor" ... Yeah, again, don't care about that in this case.

 

Trout's consolation prize is winning the ROY award, by a wide margin.

 

Williams won the Triple Crown twice and didn't get the MVP. It is not an automatic thing.

 

I find it hilarious that all the old school guys who usually promote grit, and speed, and defense and playing the game the right way are all spouting about the triple crown instead of the grit and speed and inspiration that Trout brought to the Angels (who were 6-14 when he got called up and who ended up with MORE WINS than the Tigers).

"I wasted so much time in my life hating Juventus or A.C. Milan that I should have spent hating the Cardinals." ~kalle8

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Besides, Cabrera wasn't that bad on defense. He only had 13 errors and was 2nd in the league in DP's turned by 3B. At a position he wasn't playing last year ... "but, but, his range factor" ... Yeah, again, don't care about that in this case.

Yeah he is pretty bad. You can't make errors on balls you can't get to.

Fan is short for fanatic.

I blame Wang.

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My feeling is that if the Tigers and Angels switched divisions, the Angels would be in the playoffs and the Tigers would be sitting out. But speculation can't be factored into the debate.

 

It seems that most people recognize that objectively, Trout had a better season than Cabrera. I can't see how you could argue that Cabrera's season was better. So it comes down to the fact that Cabrera did something that nobody has done in 40 years and most of those that did it are in the HOF. But Trout is the first rookie EVER with 40 SB and 30 HR and he was 2 SB away from a 30/50 which would have been done for only the third time ever, even more rare than a triple crown.

 

So if history is any guide, we will see several more triple crowns before we see another rookie season like Trout's. I disagree, but the playoff appearance is probably the tie breaker in the minds of enough votes to swing the vote.

 

This is separate from the debate, but what's up with Trout's .383 BABIP? Does he just crush the ball everywhere or is he getting lucky and is likely to regress next year?

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Trout lead the league in WAR, Runs, SB, and OPS+

Cabrera lead the league in BA, SLG, OPS, TB, HR, RBI, RC, Extra Base Hits

 

I'd lean towards Trout leading more meaningful categories, but both had incredible years and I can't fault giving the award to either.

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This is separate from the debate, but what's up with Trout's .383 BABIP? Does he just crush the ball everywhere or is he getting lucky and is likely to regress next year?

My guess is he got a bit lucky but considering his speed, he may be a guy who carries a high BABIP through his career.

 

Trout vs Cabrera is an interesting MVP topic but I think it will also be interesting to see how much this is debated vs who should win the NL MVP.

Fan is short for fanatic.

I blame Wang.

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Besides, Cabrera wasn't that bad on defense. He only had 13 errors and was 2nd in the league in DP's turned by 3B. At a position he wasn't playing last year ... "but, but, his range factor" ... Yeah, again, don't care about that in this case.

 

 

So you don't care about defense when it comes to the MVP award?

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Trout vs Cabrera is an interesting MVP topic but I think it will also be interesting to see how much this is debated vs who should win the NL MVP.

 

The NL MVP won't be debated too much. It's not nearly as interesting race and Posey will win it going away.

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This is separate from the debate, but what's up with Trout's .383 BABIP? Does he just crush the ball everywhere or is he getting lucky and is likely to regress next year?

 

I saw him play 1 game against T-Rats and he was easily the most impressive player I've witnessed play \in person at that level. Everything he did stood out compared to his peers, it was that obvious... He squared up everything he made contact with, made all the plays in the field he should and some that most CFs don't make, and created havoc on the bases. Granted that was A ball, but few hitters show that kind of bat control at that age. I was thrilled when he got promoted because he was basically beating the T-Rats by himself and I was sick of hearing Chris call his name.

 

I watched him play twice this year and he's still darn impressive. He's built like an NFL safety, and true to form he made very solid contact in both games. I think BABIP is the most overrated and misused modern metric so I'll just say that he had a great season, I believe he's capable of repeating it, and I look forward to following the rest of his career.

"You can discover more about a person in an hour of play than in a year of conversation."

- Plato

"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something."

- Plato

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I find it hilarious that all the old school guys who usually promote grit, and speed, and defense and playing the game the right way are all spouting about the triple crown instead of the grit and speed and inspiration that Trout brought to the Angels (who were 6-14 when he got called up and who ended up with MORE WINS than the Tigers).

 

I don't. This type of fan usually puts way too much value on things like making the playoffs, wins, errors and leading the league in stats and not nearly enough value on silly little things like say OBP or actual defense.

 

The NL MVP is going to Posey and it is at most a minor snub to Braun and might not be the wrong pick. Cabrera will win an MVP with stats deserving of an MVP so it isn't all that awful, he just wasn't the MVP this year so it is the wrong choice.

 

Neither one is going to have me up in arms but the AL one is pretty clearly the wrong choice, the NL one isn't.

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During the month of September, Cabrera slugged .654, had an OPS of 1.032, with 10HR and 27 RBI. Trout slugged .455, had an OPS of .836, with 6 HR, 6 RBI, and 6 SB. Trout scored 21 runs in September, Cabrera scored 22.

 

Cabrera's OPS, month-by-month:

Apr - 0.940

May- 0.839

Jun - 0.990

Jul - 1.086

Aug - 1.092

Sept - 1.032

 

Trout's OPS, month-by-month:

May - 0.941

Jun - 0.950

Jul - 1.259

Aug - 0.866

Sept - 0.836

 

Two things stand out when looking at the OPS splits - first being Trout's incredible July, the second being Cabrera's incredible 2nd half. Unfortunately for Trout's MVP candidacy, the combination of Cabrera winning the triple crown and posting an OPS over 1.000 for each of the final 3 months of the season while Trout's declined is going to resonate.

 

Edit: I don't have defensive or counting WAR stats in front of me, if someone could cite a source or show those, I think it would be interesting to see how much Trout and Cabrera's WAR values came from offense/defense. One would assume that Cabrera's value was almost entirely offense-related, while Trout may have shown closer to an equal value between offense and defense.

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