Robert Murray on Brewers and CC

[brewers888]

I still think this interview is just a formality and that Counsell has pretty much agreed to take the Mets job and I'm guessing he will make at least 8 million a year. As far as resetting the market I just don't see that happening since only a handful of owners throw money around like Cohen who is twice as wealthy as any other owner and just doesn't care how much he has to spend to get whoever he wants.

[sveumrules]

11 minutes ago, brewers888 said:

This is exactly how I feel and why it would hurt so much if he left. 

A grown man exercising his freedom to work where he pleases would hurt so much?

I hope Counsell finds happiness no matter which decision he makes.

If he chooses to manage elsewhere, I’ll look forward to Arnold getting to pick a new skipper.

If he returns, cool, we keep one of the best managers in the game.

I’ve got the whole thing as a win win no matter how it shakes out.

[MrTPlush]

23 hours ago, brewers888 said:

If Attanasio was going to pay Counsell he most likely would have already done it. 

I don't think this is entirely true. If Counsell wants to 'reset the market for managers' there is no way it would have happened via extension. Why would the Brewers offer Counsell more than what other managers have maxed out on? Pay Counsell millions more than a guy that has taken three different teams to the WS, undefeated in the LCS, 3 WS rings (possibly 4), and took a 94 win team to the WS a year later? 

It is quite possible Counsell wasn't very interested in talking an extension...or at least one south of the managerial record of like $7mil. 

I prefer Counsell to stay but lets be honest. If a team wants to give Counsell a record-breaking contract...that's pretty crazy and probably just reckless spending to have the guy you want. That is big market type logic, money isn't an object...just get the guy you want. 

[brewers888]

14 minutes ago, sveumrules said:

A grown man exercising his freedom to work where he pleases would hurt so much?

I hope Counsell finds happiness no matter which decision he makes.

If he chooses to manage elsewhere, I’ll look forward to Arnold getting to pick a new skipper.

If he returns, cool, we keep one of the best managers in the game.

I’ve got the whole thing as a win win no matter how it shakes out.

Counsell has said time and time again how much of a Wisconsin guy he is and how much he wants to win a World Series with the Brewers. If he leaves it means his words meant nothing and that he is in fact not one of us. He is free to do as he pleases but he will lose a lot of respect from the people he says he cares so much about if he walks away from his hometown team.

[brewers888]

3 minutes ago, MrTPlush said:

I don't think this is entirely true. If Counsell wants to 'reset the market for managers' there is no way it would have happened via extension. Why would the Brewers offer Counsell more than what other managers have maxed out on? Pay Counsell millions more than a guy that has taken three different teams to the WS, undefeated in the LCS, 3 WS rings (possibly 4), and took a 94 win team to the WS a year later? 

It is quite possible Counsell wasn't very interested in talking an extension...or at least one south of the managerial record of like $7mil. 

I prefer Counsell to stay but lets be honest. If a team wants to give Counsell a record-breaking contract...that's pretty crazy and probably just reckless spending to have the guy you want. That is big market type logic, money isn't an object...just get the guy you want. 

Attanasio knows that Counsell will get pretty much any amount he wants from the Mets so its up to him to pay Counsell at least 7 million a year or watch him walk. I would rather overpay Counsell by a few million than give an extra 9 million to a guy like Canha.  

[BrewerFan]

13 minutes ago, brewers888 said:

Counsell has said time and time again how much of a Wisconsin guy he is and how much he wants to win a World Series with the Brewers. If he leaves it means his words meant nothing and that he is in fact not one of us. He is free to do as he pleases but he will lose a lot of respect from the people he says he cares so much about if he walks away from his hometown team.

LOL...if he leaves after 9 years, it means he was lying and didn't really want to win a WS in Milwaukee, his words mean nothing and he was never "one of us?"

 

He won't lose any respect from me. He was here for 9 years and if he decides he wants to play in New York(Where you've already got him signing as this is a mere formality) I'll still consider him "one of us," as he's lived here longer than I've been alive and he's...also a grown man who's earned the right to make that decision. 

[MrTPlush]

7 minutes ago, brewers888 said:

Attanasio knows that Counsell will get pretty much any amount he wants from the Mets so its up to him to pay Counsell at least 7 million a year or watch him walk. I would rather overpay Counsell by a few million than give an extra 9 million to a guy like Canha.  

Probably so and they may be willing to pay him 7mil, that is the mystery. I am sure the Brewers would have been more than happy paying him $5mil. It is just where do you draw the line and when do you just accept the fact he isn't worth it? Everyone loved the pitching coach we used to have and thought he was the entirety of our pitching success and pay him whatever it took. We did just fine after he left. 

Would it really be that hard to replace Counsell? 90% of the in-game job is analytics these days. Generally speaking, I don't think people were a big fan of his lineup construction...nor his bullpen usage. Though the later is pretty much impossible to please people as a manager. It is like his value and praise he gets is for his locker room presence and creating a good culture. Is that going to be hard to replace? I guess we may find out. 

[RobertCrawley]

37 minutes ago, MrTPlush said:

Probably so and they may be willing to pay him 7mil, that is the mystery. I am sure the Brewers would have been more than happy paying him $5mil. It is just where do you draw the line and when do you just accept the fact he isn't worth it? Everyone loved the pitching coach we used to have and thought he was the entirety of our pitching success and pay him whatever it took. We did just fine after he left. 

Would it really be that hard to replace Counsell? 90% of the in-game job is analytics these days. Generally speaking, I don't think people were a big fan of his lineup construction...nor his bullpen usage. Though the later is pretty much impossible to please people as a manager. It is like his value and praise he gets is for his locker room presence and creating a good culture. Is that going to be hard to replace? I guess we may find out. 

A manager does a lot more than making rosters and managing games. He's involved with the draft, player development, trades, outreach in the US and to countries south, hiring coaches and other personal, etc. But most of all, if he's good, he creates an atmosphere of respect and professionalism. He creates good working relationships with all his players. CC does that. Will that be difficult to replace? Absolutely. There aren't many guys like him and Bruce Bochy walking the planet. 

[patrickgpe]

Obviously people can feel however they want about this situation, but some people are taking this way too seriously. If a teacher's contract is up and goes to a new school district, does that mean that the old school never met anything to him / her and all of his/ her previous students never were that important to that teacher? Obviously No, that teacher found a better situation for their family for whatever reason. 

[Underachiever]

Things change. I know I am not at the top of my profession as Counsell is, and the dollars I deal with are six, not seven figures, but I had a good job that I liked with a software company here in the Madison area. Worked there seven years, and at the end of the seventh year, I felt I had gone about as far as I could go with that company. The company agreed, by giving me a nominal raise despite good performance reviews. They said I was at the top of what they paid people in my role. At that point I started looking. Found a job with another company that doubled my income from day one. Does that mean I was never "one of them" at the old company? Of course not, but things change, people change, and opportunities present themselves. I doubt that any person at my old job thought less of me. 

And I think I need to do some digging through archives to read what Counsell has said "time and time again" about Wisconsin, MIlwaukee, and managing the Brewers. Not doubting it, I just don't remember hearing it much. I would be curious to see how many times he said it unprompted, as opposed to being a question from a reporter. "Hey Craig, what does it mean to manage the team from your hometown?" It would be impossible to answer that except in one way. 

Counsell is a Brewer, through and through. I believe he cares about the city, the team, and its people. The last nine years have shown that. If you begrudge him a chance to take advantage of what he perceives to be a better opportunity, then you are the one who doesn't care about him, not the other way around.

[Brewcrew82]

I wonder how CC would feel watching another manager lead the Brewers to their first World Series, when he had the opportunity to do so and probably get a statue/his number retired/HOF, etc....He's stated in the past how he feels like that's the only thing he has left to accomplish in baseball, and that statement would all of a sudden feel really hollow. 

Ultimately, the team will be fine one way or another due to my belief in this FO and the remarkable talent pipeline they've developed. But I can't say there won't be any sore feelings whatsoever on my end if he leaves us hanging to join forces with Cohen and Stearns, especially if Attanasio is willing to be competitive salary-wise. It's pretty natural imo. 

[Fear The Chorizo]

If CC moves on, I wish him well in the big Apple...but I don't know if he's the type of personality that will thrive in a major media market with constant expectations.  Counsel's entire playing career happened in small-mid size markets with little to no media pressure, and being the Brewers' skipper enables him to deal with media that almost never held his feet to the fire.

He is obviously a really good manager, but his experience with that role has been with an organization where he had to squeeze the most wins out of rosters that had talent holes due to budget constraints, and very few Type A personalities in the clubhouse.  None of that will be the case with the Mets, and Counsel's best traits as a manager may not be seen with the type of rosters the Mets will have more often than not.

I think the perfect scenario for CC is to use the Mets interview as leverage to get a new contract in Milwaukee.

[dlk9s]

Am I the only one who cares less and less about sports drama as I get older? I used to think that I would care more about my teams because I have fewer and fewer years left to see them win, but it's the opposite. Not that I don't care, but I just don't take sports stuff personally. If Counsell wants to go elsewhere, good for him. If he wants to stay, awesome! I hope he does. He's the best manager in the game and seems like a good person.

I just can't get worked up over any of it. Or what Giannis might say in an interview or if Terry Stotts quits or what Aaron Rodgers says or whatever. I just want to watch my teams, root for them to do well, hope the players are cool, and that's it. The rest is just noise.

[sveumrules]

3 minutes ago, dlk9s said:

Am I the only one who cares less and less about sports drama as I get older? I used to think that I would care more about my teams because I have fewer and fewer years left to see them win, but it's the opposite. Not that I don't care, but I just don't take sports stuff personally. If Counsell wants to go elsewhere, good for him. If he wants to stay, awesome! I hope he does. He's the best manager in the game and seems like a good person.

I just can't get worked up over any of it. Or what Giannis might say in an interview or if Terry Stotts quits or what Aaron Rodgers says or whatever. I just want to watch my teams, root for them to do well, hope the players are cool, and that's it. The rest is just noise.

Yeah, the most interesting angle to the whole Counsell situation to me is that it probably will be an indicator as to which direction the offseason is more likely to head.

If he's coming back, have to imagine that lowers the chances of Burnes/Adames/Williams being dealt, whereas him leaving would give Arnold a little more leeway to deal those guys and do a soft reset with a new manager. 

[patrickgpe]

9 minutes ago, dlk9s said:

Am I the only one who cares less and less about sports drama as I get older? I used to think that I would care more about my teams because I have fewer and fewer years left to see them win, but it's the opposite. Not that I don't care, but I just don't take sports stuff personally. If Counsell wants to go elsewhere, good for him. If he wants to stay, awesome! I hope he does. He's the best manager in the game and seems like a good person.

I just can't get worked up over any of it. Or what Giannis might say in an interview or if Terry Stotts quits or what Aaron Rodgers says or whatever. I just want to watch my teams, root for them to do well, hope the players are cool, and that's it. The rest is just noise.

100% this. Priorities change as we get old, and sports no longer becomes the center of our universe while balancing work and family and life. Its not that I don't care, its just i'm over most things right after they happen. 

[RobertCrawley]

1 hour ago, Brewcrew82 said:

I wonder how CC would feel watching another manager lead the Brewers to their first World Series, when he had the opportunity to do so and probably get a statue/his number retired/HOF, etc....He's stated in the past how he feels like that's the only thing he has left to accomplish in baseball, and that statement would all of a sudden feel really hollow. 

Ultimately, the team will be fine one way or another due to my belief in this FO and the remarkable talent pipeline they've developed. But I can't say there won't be any sore feelings whatsoever on my end if he leaves us hanging to join forces with Cohen and Stearns, especially if Attanasio is willing to be competitive salary-wise. It's pretty natural imo. 

I love the optimism of this post about the Brewers going to their first World Series.

[Brewcrew82]

10 minutes ago, RobertCrawley said:

I love the optimism of this post about the Brewers going to their first World Series.

Technically, it would be their second World Series...

[Brewcrew82]

https://nypost.com/2023/10/26/sports/mets-money-may-not-be-enough-to-lure-craig-counsell-from-brewers/

[BrewerFan]

4 hours ago, dlk9s said:

Am I the only one who cares less and less about sports drama as I get older? I used to think that I would care more about my teams because I have fewer and fewer years left to see them win, but it's the opposite. Not that I don't care, but I just don't take sports stuff personally. If Counsell wants to go elsewhere, good for him. If he wants to stay, awesome! I hope he does. He's the best manager in the game and seems like a good person.

I just can't get worked up over any of it. Or what Giannis might say in an interview or if Terry Stotts quits or what Aaron Rodgers says or whatever. I just want to watch my teams, root for them to do well, hope the players are cool, and that's it. The rest is just noise.

It's just a respite from the real world. I have a little cousin with stage 4 bone cancer(2nd cousin actually, she was 5 when her father and my best friend died from the same type of cancer). I have a 1st cousin on the other side who has had open-heart surgery with 4 young kids(she's fine, it was planned, but it's still a significant issue and scary as hell). 

I love watching the Brewers, the Bucks, the Packers play well. I care, but...this whole, "he was never really one of us," or how he'd somehow be a dishonest person if he watched someone else manage the Brewers? LOL...that I could not care less about. And even when they lose, I generally feel number for a while and then I just think, "eh, this is gonna suck to hear about on Twitter." 

But this should all really be a part of your life, not a central focus of it. 

[Axman59]

5 hours ago, patrickgpe said:

Obviously people can feel however they want about this situation, but some people are taking this way too seriously. If a teacher's contract is up and goes to a new school district, does that mean that the old school never met anything to him / her and all of his/ her previous students never were that important to that teacher? Obviously No, that teacher found a better situation for their family for whatever reason. 

No one cares where a teacher works though.

[patrickgpe]

23 minutes ago, Axman59 said:

No one cares where a teacher works though.

In my example it doesn’t really matter what the occupation is, he has been a good employee for 9 years and fulfilled all contractual obligations. We may be sad if he leaves but we really shouldn’t have animosity towards him. 

[Fear The Chorizo]

Is there a stat somewhere out there that lays creedance to CC being the best or top 3 managers in MLB?  Don't get me wrong, I think he's a good manager when it comes to navigating the day to day grind of the regular season.  However, Counsel has been at the helm of the Brewers for 9 seasons, with 1 NLCS appearance and just 1 playoff series win to show for it despite making the postseason 5 of the last 6 seasons.  Many people state that CC finds a way to get the most wins with the roster he's dealt - yet that seems to vanish when the postseason arrives.  It just seems to me that he's universally considered an elite manager and I'd imagine most of us as Brewer fans are quick to agree with that notion, but he doesn't have any hardware as a manager to prove that's the case.

[sveumrules]

6 minutes ago, Fear The Chorizo said:

Is there a stat somewhere out there that lays creedance to CC being the best or top 3 managers in MLB?

I don’t believe the tools available to attempt to judge manager performance are anywhere near good enough to say anyone is thee best or definitively Top 3.

The main points in favor of Counsell being considered among the better managers in the game would be his regular season success facing a significant payroll disadvantage and the fact that he is clearly coveted within the industry.

His lack of postseason success is ten games spread out over six years. Not a very reliable sample. 

Counting game 163, Counsell started his postseason career 7-3. Turns out those ten games had minimal predictive power over his next ten postseason games. Just like his last ten will likely have minimal predictive power over the next ten.

That the Brewers have played the 8th most playoff games in MLB since 2018 speaks way more to Counsell’s perceived managerial ability, or teams wouldn’t be pursuing him and maybe offering him top level compensation in the first place.

[BrewerFan]

34 minutes ago, Fear The Chorizo said:

Is there a stat somewhere out there that lays creedance to CC being the best or top 3 managers in MLB?  Don't get me wrong, I think he's a good manager when it comes to navigating the day to day grind of the regular season.  However, Counsel has been at the helm of the Brewers for 9 seasons, with 1 NLCS appearance and just 1 playoff series win to show for it despite making the postseason 5 of the last 6 seasons.  Many people state that CC finds a way to get the most wins with the roster he's dealt - yet that seems to vanish when the postseason arrives.  It just seems to me that he's universally considered an elite manager and I'd imagine most of us as Brewer fans are quick to agree with that notion, but he doesn't have any hardware as a manager to prove that's the case.

He had the best record in 1 run games ever...at least at one point this season. It was better than Earl Weaver. I think that's pretty telling. And he was consistently year over year well above the league average in that area. 

I'd say that argues he's a good manager. 

There aren't many that can quantify wins and losses. Bobby Cox the Cleveland manager Hargrove or Davey Johnson(but primarily Cox) kinda show the volatility in post-season Baseball IMO. 

[True Blue Brew Crew]

It's like people think Counsell has had some juggernaut roster every year. Go look at some of the rosters he's had in his time here. It's always been a pieced together rotation or a cobbled together lineup - one or the other. The Brewers have had 5 managers who took the team to the postseason. Counsell has more playoff seasons that the other 4 managers combined.

Not only that but you all literally have the other teams who want to interview him as input as to what other MLB people think of him. Hopefully this is just about setting the market, which he indeed will. Counsell is worth more than some middle reliever, getting more out of his rosters than even the Brewers own modeling expects. But what's really hilarious are the people that think he's just a analytic robot who can replaced by another stats guy who will get the same result. Goldfish-like memories around here