Robert Murray on Brewers and CC

[True Blue Brew Crew]

21 hours ago, Underachiever said:

An earlier post said his record wouldn't be as good in one-run games if his bullpen wasn't as good. 

What's wild about that is apparently said poster doesn't think Counsell played any role in those bullpens being so good. I guess bringing along pitchers people never heard of, who did nothing elsewhere, and turning them into high leverage late inning relievers was Brewers magic! And the fact that it was in response to the notion that Stearns might see an edge in hiring a manager who excels at winning tight games but said poster believed New York doesn't have a Milwaukee level bullpen so therefore Stearns probably isn't interested in paying Counsell, is the highest of comedy. As though the Mets can't go out and put together a strong bullpen the same way he built them here but with more money. Somehow that post was liked by 3 people.

My presumption is that downplaying the effectiveness of Counsell is some sort of defense mechanism at that prospect of losing him. Either that or people have forgotten how bad some previous Brewers managers were.

[Underachiever]

3 hours ago, True Blue Brew Crew said:

What's wild about that is apparently said poster doesn't think Counsell played any role in those bullpens being so good. I guess bringing along pitchers people never heard of, who did nothing elsewhere, and turning them into high leverage late inning relievers was Brewers magic! And the fact that it was in response to the notion that Stearns might see an edge in hiring a manager who excels at winning tight games but doesn't have a Milwaukee level bullpen in New York so therefore he's probably not interested in paying Counsell, is the highest of comedy. As though the Mets can't go out and put together a strong bullpen the same way he built them here but with more money. Somehow that post was liked by 3 people.

My presumption is that downplaying the effectiveness of Counsell is some sort of defense mechanism at that prospect of losing him. Either that or people have forgotten how bad some previous Brewers managers were.

After I get done fighting Brock B for his comment on Larry Hisle, I have to come slap you for throwing shade at Ken Macha.

[SeaBass]

From a Jon Heyman article in the NY Post yesterday:

Quote

One Brewers person said he believes Counsell will stay if he gets the right bump from $3.5 million. Terry Francona and Bruce Bochy were the highest-paid managers in 2023 in the range of $4M-$4.5M (plus perks for Bochy). Counsell is looking north of that. The Mets won’t go to Joe Torre’s record $8M salary but should easily top Brewers’ salary offers.

I thought I saw one other article mention that CC's contract doesn't officially expire until Oct 30 or 31. I've been trying to find that but if true this isn't likely to be resolved before the end of the month. CC wants to see what his market value is and I'm sure Brewers negotiations will proceed from there once CC has actual offers.

And as I said, CC isn't going to be pulling in near $10 million even from the Mets because they're not stupid. He's not likely going to get $8 million either, If the Mets offer $7M and the Brewers offer $6M does he still choose the Mets over a $1M difference? I'm not even certain the Brewers want to go up to $6M, with the report in the article that the highest paid managers in 2023 were making $4M-$4.5M would the Brewers even be the team to push into the $5M range? We'll find out eventually.

[Playing Catch]

I wonder if the Brewers would consider countering an $8M+ annual salary by adding sheer length to any deal. He really is Brewers to the core. What if they offered an ownership stake, or some other "lifetime" contract that didn't necessarily require him to manage forever.

He's been around long enough for the organization and ownership group to know "the man" well enough to trust him to a long-term commitment, regardless of role.

[patrickgpe]

If CC wants to manage the brewers, he will. Also I hope Counsell makes his thoughts / I t etioms known sooner rather than later. I’m sure he will. Brewers are his hometown team so I don’t think he will leave them hanging. Brewers really can’t do much until they know. 

[BrewerFan]

20 hours ago, True Blue Brew Crew said:

What's wild about that is apparently said poster doesn't think Counsell played any role in those bullpens being so good. I guess bringing along pitchers people never heard of, who did nothing elsewhere, and turning them into high leverage late inning relievers was Brewers magic! And the fact that it was in response to the notion that Stearns might see an edge in hiring a manager who excels at winning tight games but said poster believed New York doesn't have a Milwaukee level bullpen so therefore Stearns probably isn't interested in paying Counsell, is the highest of comedy. As though the Mets can't go out and put together a strong bullpen the same way he built them here but with more money. Somehow that post was liked by 3 people.

My presumption is that downplaying the effectiveness of Counsell is some sort of defense mechanism at that prospect of losing him. Either that or people have forgotten how bad some previous Brewers managers were.

There's 2 issues.

1-Sorta the same with Aaron Rodgers. We were going to move on, so we tried to convince ourselves...he wasn't that good anyway, we can compensate by improving our defense and...Love just needs to be as good as bad Rodgers(a lot more goes into it, but it was a coping mechanism).

2-Rercency bias.
Counsell made the...just really bad decisions of hitting Turang vs a lefty with Wiemer on the bench and then pinch hit Winker and...had him on the PO roster instead. Those two PH ABs went about as expected.

 

And as a result, EVERYTHING else one of the great Brewers ever has done is being diminished a bit. I think it's also notable that even with Woody's shoulder(and Ashby's) our pitching stayed remarkably healthy by in large over CCs tenure. Nelson was a fluke, wouldn't have happened today. 

To my mind though, you gave Counsel very flawed teems and he wrang just about everything possible out of them. 

[yourout]

Are all the assistant coaches contracts up as well?

[nate82]

I believe it is more likely that CC reunites with Stearns but not as the Manager for the Mets.  If he reunites with Stearns it will be as the GM of the Mets.  That is the only scenario where I see CC going to the Mets.

I still believe Toronto is probably the next best spot behind Milwaukee.  I would rank it this way 1. Milwaukee 2. Toronto 3. Houston as a manager.  I think it is just the Mets if he goes the GM route maybe the Brewers if he doesn’t want to step in and be the GM and is more interested in a front office position that is not as demanding.  Maybe a regional scouting director or something like that.

[MrTPlush]

On 10/20/2023 at 11:35 AM, Playing Catch said:

I wonder if the Brewers would consider countering an $8M+ annual salary by adding sheer length to any deal. He really is Brewers to the core. What if they offered an ownership stake, or some other "lifetime" contract that didn't necessarily require him to manage forever.

He's been around long enough for the organization and ownership group to know "the man" well enough to trust him to a long-term commitment, regardless of role.

Yah, I imagine this will be apart of his decision making process. As a Brewer he basically has statue out front type support/love from the team. His job security is very very high. He won't get that same assurance in NYC. Cohen could fire him after a year or two and the Brewers might find a manager they love while he is gone. Then what? Bounce around the league hoping to stick somewhere? 

Be careful chasing the greener grass on the other side of the fence. College coaches, especially in football do it...and they realize that green lawn on the other side isn't so kind.

[MadThinker88]

I know a few posters were interested in having Stephan Vogt return to MKE in a coaching role next season, but its looking like Vogt is getting multiple interviews for managerial openings (San Fran & a 2nd interview with Cleveland this week)..

Even if Vogt doesn't land one of those 2 openings, its clear others around the league have taken notice of Vogt.   MKE might need to move real fast (like before 11/1/23) if it hopes to land him in some role.

[nate82]

I am more confident now that CC will be the Astros manager for the 2024 season.  The Astros want a manager who is more analytical.  CC fits this perfectly and he won’t have to deal with the media in NYC.  CC is going to get paid wherever he goes but the Astros and maybe the Blue Jays are far far far far better teams than the Mets are.  Will CC really want to step into a team that is basically a minefield?  One that could be going through a rebuild?

I don’t believe CC will be interested in the Mets job and will be more interested in the Astros job.  By far the Astros are a better team than the Mets.  World Series wise the Astros will be one of the favorites again.  Why would CC pick the Mets over the Astros if he is interested in winning a WS?

[MrTPlush]

I am not sure Counsell really cares where he goes if he leaves Milwaukee. It will almost surely be highest bidder. I am not sure Stearn's existence in NYC or the Astros WS odds are swaying him one way or the other that much. 

I am guessing he wants to be in Milwaukee if they can pay him. 

[CheezWizHed]

52 minutes ago, MrTPlush said:

I am not sure Counsell really cares where he goes if he leaves Milwaukee. It will almost surely be highest bidder. I am not sure Stearn's existence in NYC or the Astros WS odds are swaying him one way or the other that much. 

I am guessing he wants to be in Milwaukee if they can pay him. 

Not everything in life is about money.  The team you work with (i.e. both front office and players), the conditions and location of where you work, and other benefits (i.e. maybe more front office responsibilities) might all play into it.  Saying it is all about money is a bit short-sighted for a manager. 

[RobertCrawley]

On 10/20/2023 at 10:10 AM, SeaBass said:

From a Jon Heyman article in the NY Post yesterday:

I thought I saw one other article mention that CC's contract doesn't officially expire until Oct 30 or 31. I've been trying to find that but if true this isn't likely to be resolved before the end of the month. CC wants to see what his market value is and I'm sure Brewers negotiations will proceed from there once CC has actual offers.

And as I said, CC isn't going to be pulling in near $10 million even from the Mets because they're not stupid. He's not likely going to get $8 million either, If the Mets offer $7M and the Brewers offer $6M does he still choose the Mets over a $1M difference? I'm not even certain the Brewers want to go up to $6M, with the report in the article that the highest paid managers in 2023 were making $4M-$4.5M would the Brewers even be the team to push into the $5M range? We'll find out eventually.

$7 million doubles his current salary.

That's not chickenfeed.

That's the question: Will Attenasio pay him what he's worth?

[RobertCrawley]

For what it's worth, another "insider" perspective.

https://www.yardbarker.com/mlb/articles/insider_shares_if_brewers_craig_counsell_will_consider_mets_opening/s1_13132_39432809

It was recently reported the Mets are looking to hire somebody from outside the organization to replace Showalter and also learned that Texas Rangers associate manager Will Venable declined a request to interview with the National League East club. 

"Counsell’s father, John, was a longtime Brewers employee, and Counsell still lives with his family in Whitefish Bay, Wisc., where he graduated from high school," Martino explained. "...Two league sources familiar with the situation said on Monday that Counsell would indeed embrace New York."

Counsell has thus far accumulated a career 707-625 regular-season record with the Brewers and took Milwaukee to the playoffs each year from 2018 through 2021 and again in 2023. Meanwhile, this year's edition of the Mets was arguably MLB's most disappointing team and finished at 75-87. 
MLB insider Joel Sherman of the New York Post noted ahead of this past weekend that "it is far from a slam dunk that Stearns is just biding time and will ultimately hire" Counsell. 

On Monday, Martino insisted the Mets "plan to conduct a wide-ranging manager search" and won't "automatically anoint a particular candidate," even if that candidate is the proven 53-year-old who previously worked under Stearns.

[MrTPlush]

5 hours ago, CheezWizHed said:

Not everything in life is about money.  The team you work with (i.e. both front office and players), the conditions and location of where you work, and other benefits (i.e. maybe more front office responsibilities) might all play into it.  Saying it is all about money is a bit short-sighted for a manager. 

I mean, agreed, I didn't say that.

I am guessing he prefers Milwaukee for everything outside of money...so barring us lowballing him, he likely picks us. The only thing we don't have is a perennial WS contender in the form of a large market...but I am not sure how much that would sway him.

[Sixtolezcano]

19 minutes ago, MrTPlush said:

I mean, agreed, I didn't say that.

I am guessing he prefers Milwaukee for everything outside of money...so barring us lowballing him, he likely picks us. The only thing we don't have is a perennial WS contender in the form of a large market...but I am not sure how much that would sway him.

No one really knows if Counsell prefers to remains in Milwaukee. Most comments such as this is wishful thinking.

[MrTPlush]

21 minutes ago, Sixtolezcano said:

No one really knows if Counsell prefers to remains in Milwaukee. Most comments such as this is wishful thinking.

Not really. There are plenty of reports and past comments from Counsell that would lead one to believe that is in fact his preference.

No one knows for sure, but to call it wishful thinking makes it seem as though it’s pulling a rabbit out of hat type claim. It’s certainly not.

[Sixtolezcano]

10 minutes ago, MrTPlush said:

Not really. There are plenty of reports and past comments from Counsell that would lead one to believe that is in fact his preference.

No one knows for sure, but to call it wishful thinking makes it seem as though it’s pulling a rabbit out of hat type claim. It’s certainly not.

We will find out which way this goes soon enough. Buckle up and accept it.

[brewmann04]

Just as they are ready with a plan B 

[CheezWizHed]

14 hours ago, MrTPlush said:

I mean, agreed, I didn't say that.

I am guessing he prefers Milwaukee for everything outside of money...so barring us lowballing him, he likely picks us. The only thing we don't have is a perennial WS contender in the form of a large market...but I am not sure how much that would sway him.

Well, you insinuated that he would take the money over things like WS odds. It is pretty common for players to move to wherever the best $$ comes from.  Maybe that is what is motivating CC now? But there might be other things he has in mind too.  Maybe he wants to be a GM or have some front office responsibilities?  Who knows?

[wibadgers23]

 

[Brewcrew82]

Just ready to get it over with at this point. I know he said he wanted to explore his options, but I now get the feeling there’s real smoke to the fire here.

CC would be damaging his image in the eyes of Brewers’ fans imo. He’s ultimately free to do whatever he wants, but ditching Milwaukee for New York and leaving us without a WS like he committed to do is severely disappointing. Could potentially lead to boos if/when he comes to Milwaukee as manager of Mets.

[wibadgers23]

Brewers probably granting the Mets permission now so that if he does leave, Milwaukee can move forward more quickly and figure out a replacement.

[brewers888]

I'm sure there was no tampering at all. This has most likely been a done deal for quite some time with Counsell knowing that Stearns was going to New York and Counsell being the obvious first choice.