Brewers GM Matt Arnold "Laying the foundation for future deals" at the Winter Meetings. Here's hoping he is going to build new corners in the infield.

[Rick Daltons Flamethrower]

 

https://www.jsonline.com/story/sports/mlb/brewers/2023/12/06/milwaukee-brewers-matt-arnold-laid-foundation-for-future-deals-during-baseball-winter-meetings/71823442007/

The house we need built requires big bats at first and third. Looks like this will require some patience. Encouraging that alot of the talks included trading Corbin Burnes. Lots of interest in this area. Where there is smoke a fire is nearby. However it may be awhile before we see the flames. Just really, really enjoying this new era of brewer baseball. So much to look forward to. The youth movement is so exciting. I am stoked. Now lets light thre fire!     Your thoughts Fanatic Nation.......

[DR28]

Hopefully this means a 1B and parameters for a Burnes blockbuster.

[MillerParkSouth]

We’re a good team, we should keep Burnes and Adames unless someone blows us away with an offer.  I can’t imagine the return will be that much less at the deadline if we’re out of it.

[patrickgpe]

I have been on this for some time, they haven't had a decent long term option at 1st since Prince really and Aram at 3rd. If they move their stars before they hit FA, it would be nice that atleast one corner IF is addressed with a young guy. They have been kicking the can down the road for some time. 

They drafted Wilken, who may help in a few years at least. 

[monty57]

1 hour ago, MillerParkSouth said:

We’re a good team, we should keep Burnes and Adames unless someone blows us away with an offer.  I can’t imagine the return will be that much less at the deadline if we’re out of it.

I expect that the value received in a trade of Burnes would far outweigh the value he would give us for one season. I'd be bummed if they don't trade him. While it would increase our chances this year, it would decrease our chance of being competitive for the following 5-6 years.

To the topic of corner IF, I found it interesting that Steamer projects Black to have an above-average bat this year. It usually doesn't project highly for rookies, so it's looking pretty highly at him. If correct, we've got 3B covered for years, and should focus on 1B and starting pitching.

I've said it numerous times, but I'd look for a high-end young arm (like Tiedemann from the Blue Jays or Harrison from the Giants) in a Burnes trade, and a low-end Top 100 guy for one of our young OFs. Then I'd offer a 2-year deal to Hoskins to man 1B as we should have extra money over the next two years with all of the pre-arby guys on the roster.

C: Contreras
1B: Hoskins
2B: Turang
SS: Adames (probably doesn't have a ton of trade value, so might be best to hold onto him)
3B: Black
OF/DH: Yelich, Chourio, whichever two of Mitchell, Frelick, Weimer isn't traded

Bauer is backup 1B/DH, Taylor is a RH back-up OF, someone like Henry or a vet takes backup C, and we get a utility guy as a  backup IF.

The two young pitchers we get in trade will fit in with our current crop of young talent, and hopefully some of them will sign extensions to keep a strong core of young talent for years to come.

We're a couple trades (Burnes and an OF) and a Hoskins signing from being a pretty solid, young team that could be competitive for a long time.

[wallus]

2 hours ago, MillerParkSouth said:

We’re a good team, we should keep Burnes and Adames unless someone blows us away with an offer.  I can’t imagine the return will be that much less at the deadline if we’re out of it.

That assumes a few things:

1. He's healthy

2. He's pitching well

3. That certain teams don't value the QO pick which they wouldn't get if he doesn't start the season with them.

Then what happens if we are a fringe playoff team and have to make the tough decision. Trading him is the logical choice.

[TURBO]

2 hours ago, patrickgpe said:

 

They drafted Wilken, who may help in a few years at least. 

I think Wilken is being fast tracked.  My bet is that he comes up late 2024, and if not, is on the starting roster in 2025.

I have a lot of faith in this kid.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

8 minutes ago, TURBO said:

I think Wilken is being fast tracked.  My bet is that he comes up late 2024, and if not, is on the starting roster in 2025.

I have a lot of faith in this kid.

For years I've been hoping for the Brewers to draft a big, strong power-hitting Scott Rolen type to man the hot corner, but they've always shied away from that type of player in favor of smaller, more positionally versatile defenders, to varying degrees of success (mostly underwhelming). Wilken certainly seems like a change in that philosophy, as. physically at least, he's a Rolen clone. I'm excited to see how he works out moving forward. It would be awesome to have the perpetual hole at 3B sewn up for the next decade.

[Underachiever]

3 hours ago, MillerParkSouth said:

We’re a good team, we should keep Burnes and Adames unless someone blows us away with an offer.  I can’t imagine the return will be that much less at the deadline if we’re out of it.

What a fail that would be if the Brewers kept Burnes and are out of it at the break. Because of the QO draft pick being lost, I think he has a lot less value at the deadline. And if the Brewers are out of it, they HAVE to sell at that point. May lose some leverage. The other option if they keep Burnes is that they are in the race. Then, how do you trade him? I would like to see them move Burnes before the season.

[wibadgers23]

13 minutes ago, Underachiever said:

What a fail that would be if the Brewers kept Burnes and are out of it at the break. 

Or gets hurt. Or sucks the first half and loses all trade value. There aren’t too many good reasons I can think of to keep Burnes unless Arnold is getting just awful trade offers for him which is doubtful.

[shanedog19]

2 hours ago, Underachiever said:

What a fail that would be if the Brewers kept Burnes and are out of it at the break. Because of the QO draft pick being lost, I think he has a lot less value at the deadline. And if the Brewers are out of it, they HAVE to sell at that point. May lose some leverage. The other option if they keep Burnes is that they are in the race. Then, how do you trade him? I would like to see them move Burnes before the season.

This is exactly why you can't hold on to him going into 2024. Just a hunch, but Arnold is probably hesitant to trade a big name player mid-season after what happened with Hader. You can argue the merits of that trade, but it did appear to upset the clubhouse and fanbase.

[BrewerFan]

8 hours ago, monty57 said:

I expect that the value received in a trade of Burnes would far outweigh the value he would give us for one season. I'd be bummed if they don't trade him. While it would increase our chances this year, it would decrease our chance of being competitive for the following 5-6 years.

To the topic of corner IF, I found it interesting that Steamer projects Black to have an above-average bat this year. It usually doesn't project highly for rookies, so it's looking pretty highly at him. If correct, we've got 3B covered for years, and should focus on 1B and starting pitching.

I've said it numerous times, but I'd look for a high-end young arm (like Tiedemann from the Blue Jays or Harrison from the Giants) in a Burnes trade, and a low-end Top 100 guy for one of our young OFs. Then I'd offer a 2-year deal to Hoskins to man 1B as we should have extra money over the next two years with all of the pre-arby guys on the roster.

Yes, I really don't like looking backward when talking about the future.

I get we haven't had a great 1B since Prince(that's probably the best pure offensive player the franchise has ever developed, so that's an awfully high standard) -BUT, given the makeup of our system, I think it's much more important to try and get promising young arms rather than young corner bats. We've got them in our system. Trust your development and picture what the '25, '26 teams will look like. Who's going to anchor your rotation? COULD be Ashby or Misiorowski. Could be Ashby doesn't regain that 97 MPH sinker and Misi ends up as a HL reliever. Peralta is more like an occasional ace, but a 2/3. I don't think you want to trust him to be the anchor of your rotation. We have several guys to give you innings in Gasser, Rodriguez, and several others who can be 3-4 type pitchers, but we need another high-upside arm or two. Black, Wilken, Boeve with Pratt, Bitonti, and others behind them, I like the hitters we have in those places.

If there's one weakness in the system, it's young, starting pitchers. Tiedemann, Harrison...I'd add Painter, Abel or several other arms, but I think it's more likely you get a couple of lower-rated starters or you package Williams and Burnes. And you're selling high on Williams, plus you have Uribe to step into that role. 

THAT is the best chance to win a WS in the near future rather than half measures and another "bite at the apple" in '24...though, I get the other perspective. 

[Fear The Chorizo]

5 hours ago, shanedog19 said:

This is exactly why you can't hold on to him going into 2024. Just a hunch, but Arnold is probably hesitant to trade a big name player mid-season after what happened with Hader. You can argue the merits of that trade, but it did appear to upset the clubhouse and fanbase.

If the Hader trade wasn't made when it happened, this organization would have a lot more holes at the MLB level that need filling.  It's been hashed over multiple ways, but Hader was one of the main reasons that 2022 team was nosediving after a solid start to the year.  The theoretical trades that never happen always look like they would've yielded more return value than the trades are made, too.

I doubt Arnold cares at all about what fans think about player moves and when they happen - if he thinks it's the right time to pull the trigger on something or stand pat, he's going to do it.

[BrewerFan]

8 hours ago, wallus said:

That assumes a few things:

1. He's healthy

2. He's pitching well

3. That certain teams don't value the QO pick which they wouldn't get if he doesn't start the season with them.

Then what happens if we are a fringe playoff team and have to make the tough decision. Trading him is the logical choice.

The first couple of those are certainly risks...but the bold is the biggest...challenge IMO.

The Brewers are nearly lock to at least be in the race for a playoff spot(within ~3-4 games of of the last WC spot given the expanded playoffs). You just went through this with Hader, you said it was a mistake. Don't put yourself in a position to do this again. 

Then again, I don't really see Hoskins as worth the signing if you trade Burnes. So I'd say if they keep Burnes, then sign Hoskins and if they trade Burnes, then go with the youth movement and a soft reset this next year. 

Quote

 

@Fear The ChorizoIf the Hader trade wasn't made when it happened, this organization would have a lot more holes at the MLB level that need filling.  It's been hashed over multiple ways, but Hader was one of the main reasons that 2022 team was nosediving after a solid start to the year.  The theoretical trades that never happen always look like they would've yielded more return value than the trades are made, too.

I doubt Arnold cares at all about what fans think about player moves and when they happen - if he thinks it's the right time to pull the trigger on something or stand pat, he's going to do it.

 

I don't think Hader was one of the main reasons. He had a couple blow ups, but they were just bad for a few months.

And yes, it was a great trade. It was also terrible optics and the FO has come out and said it was a mistake. So now doing it again with a more important player? I also really disagree that Arnold doesn't care about what fans think about player moves and when they happen. They need fan support, they need to sell tickets. That's their primary source of revenue. 

I'm not saying he passes up Jackson Holliday and Grayson Rodriguez at the deadline, but I think it's certainly a factor. I think it makes trading him in the off-season preferable to mid-season. 

[LouisEly]

9 hours ago, monty57 said:

I expect that the value received in a trade of Burnes would far outweigh the value he would give us for one season. I'd be bummed if they don't trade him. While it would increase our chances this year, it would decrease our chance of being competitive for the following 5-6 years.

The Brewers have not shown a propensity to let assets expire.

I think some of the FA SPs need to come off of the market first, and then the teams who lose out on those FA's - or see the length and AAVs of those FA contracts and don't want to hamstring the org for years or go over the luxury tax - start to become more desperate.

[Fear The Chorizo]

When is the deadline for negotiated arbitration salaries, or if teams and players can't agree it goes to arbitration?  Wondering if any sort of Burnes deal doesn't happen until the Brewers and any interested teams find out what Burnes' arbitration amount is if he'd win a hearing (assuming the Brewers and Burnes can't come to an agreement once again).  I also think until other free agent pitching signs or is traded (Bieber, Cease. others?), Burnes isn't going anywhere.

[nate82]

3 hours ago, Fear The Chorizo said:

When is the deadline for negotiated arbitration salaries, or if teams and players can't agree it goes to arbitration?  Wondering if any sort of Burnes deal doesn't happen until the Brewers and any interested teams find out what Burnes' arbitration amount is if he'd win a hearing (assuming the Brewers and Burnes can't come to an agreement once again).  I also think until other free agent pitching signs or is traded (Bieber, Cease. others?), Burnes isn't going anywhere.

January 12th is the date this time. 
 

https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/mlb-offseason-key-dates-free-agency-start-awards-winter-meetings-hall-of-fame-spring-training-and-more/amp/

[rickh150]

On 12/8/2023 at 7:58 AM, Fear The Chorizo said:

When is the deadline for negotiated arbitration salaries, or if teams and players can't agree it goes to arbitration?  Wondering if any sort of Burnes deal doesn't happen until the Brewers and any interested teams find out what Burnes' arbitration amount is if he'd win a hearing (assuming the Brewers and Burnes can't come to an agreement once again).  I also think until other free agent pitching signs or is traded (Bieber, Cease. others?), Burnes isn't going anywhere.

I think the Brewers want nothing to do with Burnes and arbitration. It was an embarrassment last year and it will be negativity this year too.  

He’s gone. It’s all positioning now, just seeing what others are willing to give up to get him. Playing hard to get knowing several big market teams like Dodgers and Yankees and others….just one…will eventually cave to Brewers demands at add ins and throw ins. My guess is that several close or in general deals are in place with several teams and that one player needs to be added to get it done. They can play around for a month to drive up price by waiting out a few other SP to sign or get traded.

Long term, we need several young high end pitchers to go along with budding young offense. A Burnes trade could bring us to part of that goal like no other trade could. I simply cannot believe we think that highly of 2024 to go big money on Burnes for one year, face the arbitration negativity game with him again, and deal with the potential trade rumors with him at deadline. I think we want none of that and would be happy with multiple, favorite, young, and especially cheap arms going forward.

[Fear The Chorizo]

1 hour ago, rickh150 said:

I think the Brewers want nothing to do with Burnes and arbitration. It was an embarrassment last year and it will be negativity this year too.  

He’s gone. It’s all positioning now, just seeing what others are willing to give up to get him. Playing hard to get knowing several big market teams like Dodgers and Yankees and others….just one…will eventually cave to Brewers demands at add ins and throw ins. My guess is that several close or in general deals are in place with several teams and that one player needs to be added to get it done. They can play around for a month to drive up price by waiting out a few other SP to sign or get traded.

Long term, we need several young high end pitchers to go along with budding young offense. A Burnes trade could bring us to part of that goal like no other trade could. I simply cannot believe we think that highly of 2024 to go big money on Burnes for one year, face the arbitration negativity game with him again, and deal with the potential trade rumors with him at deadline. I think we want none of that and would be happy with multiple, favorite, young, and especially cheap arms going forward.

Embarrassment for who?  Burnes didn't do himself any favors, crying about losing his hearing to the press afterwards, and could have avoided losing his hearing by signing the arby offer the Brewers and his team were negotiating up to the deadline, and likely would have made more $ than he wound up with in 2023.  The Brewers did exactly what the process in place required of them.

I don't think the Brewers would mind one bit going through arbitration with Burnes one more time if they don't get the moon for him via trade before then.  That's the route Burnes has decided to go instead of Freddy or Ashby, and that's his right to do so...but that doesn't mean the Brewers then have to go to a hearing and fall over themselves saying how fabulous he is on the mound and beg the arbitrator to pay Burnes whatever he wants.

[rickh150]

57 minutes ago, Fear The Chorizo said:

Embarrassment for who?  Burnes didn't do himself any favors, crying about losing his hearing to the press afterwards, and could have avoided losing his hearing by signing the arby offer the Brewers and his team were negotiating up to the deadline, and likely would have made more $ than he wound up with in 2023.  The Brewers did exactly what the process in place required of them.

I don't think the Brewers would mind one bit going through arbitration with Burnes one more time if they don't get the moon for him via trade before then.  That's the route Burnes has decided to go instead of Freddy or Ashby, and that's his right to do so...but that doesn't mean the Brewers then have to go to a hearing and fall over themselves saying how fabulous he is on the mound and beg the arbitrator to pay Burnes whatever he wants.

Oh, I agree. I think Burnes was not in the right… not one bit. But I don’t think the Brewers are asking the moon for him; they’ll take a couple young pitching stars though and that should be possible. And they have been thru enough bad press of late with CC and state $ deal to not want to bring more upon themselves. And the team cannot be all about 2024…just cannot believe it. 

[Fear The Chorizo]

9 hours ago, rickh150 said:

Oh, I agree. I think Burnes was not in the right… not one bit. But I don’t think the Brewers are asking the moon for him; they’ll take a couple young pitching stars though and that should be possible. And they have been thru enough bad press of late with CC and state $ deal to not want to bring more upon themselves. And the team cannot be all about 2024…just cannot believe it. 

I think it depends how dumb the Cubs get with throwing around $$ to fill what are still gaping holes on their roster in the rotation, pen, and lineup now that Ohtani is a dodger.  Right now, the Reds are probably the next best team on paper to the Brewers - that could quickly change if Burnes and Adames are dealt - and then i would imagine Williams is also gone by the 2024 trade deadline...but it also makes some sense to make a big move or two to shore up 1B and the rotation and run it back to start the season, too.

[Sixtolezcano]

The Ohtani signing may have eliminated the Dodgers as a trade partner for Adames. Today the Yankees traded 2021 first round shortstop prospect Trey Sweeney to the Dodgers so they could open up a 40 man roster spot for Ohtani.

FROM ESPN

In a move that opens up a 40-man roster spot for Shohei Ohtani, the Los Angeles Dodgers traded reliever Victor Gonzalez and infielder Jorbit Vivas to the New York Yankees for shortstop prospect Trey Sweeney, it was announced Monday.

The Dodgers reached a 10-year, $700 million deal with Ohtani on Saturday. The move also makes room on the Dodgers' roster for Joe Kelly, who reached a deal Saturday to return to the the team.

The 23-year-old Sweeney, the 20th overall pick in the 2021 MLB draft, batted .252 with 13 homers, 49 RBIs and 20 stolen bases in 100 games at Double-A Somerset last season.

Anthony Volpe took over the Yankees' shortstop job as a rookie last season.

The left-handed Gonzalez, 28, went 3-3 with a 4.01 ERA in 33 relief appearances with the Dodgers in 2023, striking out 33 and walking 10 in 33 2/3 innings. He averaged 94.6 mph with his sinker and also throws sliders and changeups.

Gonzalez, who missed the 2022 season after starting on the injured list, is 9-4 with one save and a 3.22 ERA in 93 career games with Los Angeles since 2020.

[patrickgpe]

5 minutes ago, Sixtolezcano said:

The Ohtani signing may have eliminated the Dodgers as a trade partner for Adames. Today the Yankees traded 2021 first round shortstop prospect Trey Sweeney to the Dodgers so they could open up a 40 man roster spot for Ohtani.

FROM ESPN

In a move that opens up a 40-man roster spot for Shohei Ohtani, the Los Angeles Dodgers traded reliever Victor Gonzalez and infielder Jorbit Vivas to the New York Yankees for shortstop prospect Trey Sweeney, it was announced Monday.

The Dodgers reached a 10-year, $700 million deal with Ohtani on Saturday. The move also makes room on the Dodgers' roster for Joe Kelly, who reached a deal Saturday to return to the the team.

The 23-year-old Sweeney, the 20th overall pick in the 2021 MLB draft, batted .252 with 13 homers, 49 RBIs and 20 stolen bases in 100 games at Double-A Somerset last season.

Anthony Volpe took over the Yankees' shortstop job as a rookie last season.

The left-handed Gonzalez, 28, went 3-3 with a 4.01 ERA in 33 relief appearances with the Dodgers in 2023, striking out 33 and walking 10 in 33 2/3 innings. He averaged 94.6 mph with his sinker and also throws sliders and changeups.

Gonzalez, who missed the 2022 season after starting on the injured list, is 9-4 with one save and a 3.22 ERA in 93 career games with Los Angeles since 2020.

I get that the Dodgers needing to clear the roster spots. What I don't get is why would the Yankees not only help them clear a spot and give a top prospect for 2 bottom of the 40 man roster guys. 

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

28 minutes ago, patrickgpe said:

I get that the Dodgers needing to clear the roster spots. What I don't get is why would the Yankees not only help them clear a spot and give a top prospect for 2 bottom of the 40 man roster guys. 

Vivas is a legit high-end 22-year-old prospect. I believe he was Top 15 in a loaded Dodgers system before the trade. Now slotted in as New York's #10 prospect.

[Outlander]

Maybe the trade by the Dodgers increases an Adames trade by getting a future replacement for Adames. Sure seems like Sweeney could be ready sometime 2024.