Counsell

[TURBO]

...or both!

[Guest]

3 hours ago, LouisEly said:

Leaving for more money, when you've already made at least $30M in your career and have an offer of $5M/year to stick around, is either greed or revenge.

Why doesn't this logic apply to Attanasio?

He saw the value of the Brewers increase by $800 million during the time CC managed the team - nearly a billion dollars and part of that was due to the on field success of the team - yet he couldn't match the Cubs offer and add $2.5 million a year to CC's deal?

If we are gonna talk about greed....

[zurch1818]

On 5/5/2024 at 1:05 AM, EddieTheCousin said:

Why doesn't this logic apply to Attanasio?

He saw the value of the Brewers increase by $800 million during the time CC managed the team - nearly a billion dollars and part of that was due to the on field success of the team - yet he couldn't match the Cubs offer and add $2.5 million a year to CC's deal?

If we are gonna talk about greed....

According to Zillow, our house has gone up in value by $230k since we purchased it in 2018. However, accessing this equity is not as easy as going to the bank and making a withdrawal. I'd have to either go back into debt and get another mortgage (HELOC) or sell it. Either of these options are not great. One comes with a hefty house payment (which it's really nice not having one now) and the other is something we have no interest in doing as we have a 3 yr old and twins that just turned 1.

For us, it's a much better decision to save money and cash flow major expenses (essential net profit) from our income. I'm guessing that's where the Brewers make their decisions too.

The other thing to consider is that valuation assumes someone is willing to pay that. Given that price, there aren't that many buyers. I'd love to purchase them, but our net worth is 0.15% of 800 million. Plus I'm in a partnership with my wife and I routinely get outvoted 1 to 1.

Speaking of partnerships, the Brewers are also one. Attanasio is just the majority shareholder. I don't know what percent of the team is actually owned by him.

[SF70]

5 hours ago, zurch1818 said:

According to Zillow, our house has gone up in value by $230k since we purchased it in 2018. However, accessing this equity is not as easy as going to the bank and making a withdrawal. I'd have to either go back into debt and get another mortgage (HELOC) or sell it. Either of these options are not great. One comes with a hefty house payment (which it's really nice not having one now) and the other is something we have no interest in doing as we have a 3 yr old and twins that just turned 1.

For us, it's a much better decision to save money from the cash flow major expenses (essential net profit) from our income. I'm guessing that's where the Brewers make their decisions too.

The other thing to consider is that valuation assumes someone is willing to pay that. Given that price, there aren't that many buyers. I'd love to purchase them, but our net worth is 0.15% of 800 million. Plus I'm in a partnership with my wife and I routinely get outvoted 1 to 1.

Speaking of partnerships, the Brewers are also one. Attanasio is just the majority shareholder. I don't know what percent of the team is actually owned by him.

My memory says 38%.

[wiguy94]

8 hours ago, EddieTheCousin said:

Why doesn't this logic apply to Attanasio?

He saw the value of the Brewers increase by $800 million during the time CC managed the team - nearly a billion dollars and part of that was due to the on field success of the team - yet he couldn't match the Cubs offer and add $2.5 million a year to CC's deal?

If we are gonna talk about greed....

How can you match an offer you weren’t given a chance to match? Counsell never gave the Brewers a chance to match. 

[Underachiever]

38 minutes ago, wiguy94 said:

How can you match an offer you weren’t given a chance to match? Counsell never gave the Brewers a chance to match. 

Agreed. Counsell was gone the minute that his contract was allowed to expire. Whether it was all on him, or mutual. 

[Guest]

29 minutes ago, wiguy94 said:

How can you match an offer you weren’t given a chance to match? Counsell never gave the Brewers a chance to match. 

Good point ~ i had forgot that Counsell didn't come back after. I'm not sure it would have mattered though... Brewers offered $16.5 over 3, Cubs offered $40+ over 5.... I doubt the Brewers would have matched it.

My entire point here is there is blame on both sides though.... there is a whole lot we don't know but everyone wants to pile on CC.... Ultimately, the Brewers offered Craig another 3 year deal.... after back to back 3 year deals where he led the team to unprecedented success... CC probably thought he deserved a longer contract based on performance. The Cubs sure thought he did. Throw in the fact that the Cubs offer was $25 million more in total value....

It's really not that hard to understand why CC felt underappreciated and left.

[edfunderburk]

12 hours ago, LouisEly said:

Counsell made at least $20M in 15 years as a player and at least $10M as a manager with MKE for 9 years, maybe closer to $40M total.  Does he really need an extra $3M/year?  No, he's already made at least $30M.  Will an extra $3M be life-changing for him?  No, he's already made $30M. 

You’re forgetting … Counsell did this for the “other” managers - not for himself.

He’s a really swell guy … Always thinking of the “other” managers. He still wants to be the Brewers manager, but he couldn’t pass up the opportunity to sacrifice his preferences to better the salaries of his peers.

What a hero.& role mode … we were lucky to have him.

 

[edfunderburk]

8 hours ago, zurch1818 said:

I'm in a partnership with my wife and I routinely get outvoted 1 to 1.

Wisdom … the wife’s vote ALWAYS counts more than the husband’s vote 

This realization leads to a happy marriage

[TURBO]

10 hours ago, EddieTheCousin said:

Why doesn't this logic apply to Attanasio?

He saw the value of the Brewers increase by $800 million during the time CC managed the team - nearly a billion dollars and part of that was due to the on field success of the team - yet he couldn't match the Cubs offer and add $2.5 million a year to CC's deal?

If we are gonna talk about greed....

Was Attanasio given the opportunity to match the Cubs offer?  

[Thurston Fluff]

I'm kind of interested to see if/how Counsell adjusts to having a crap bullpen.

[LouisEly]

11 hours ago, EddieTheCousin said:

He saw the value of the Brewers increase by $800 million during the time CC managed the team - nearly a billion dollars and part of that was due to the on field success of the team - yet he couldn't match the Cubs offer and add $2.5 million a year to CC's deal?

Did the Cubs offer have an NDA attached to it?

Because pretty much all free agent contract offers do.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, LouisEly said:

Did the Cubs offer have an NDA attached to it?

Because pretty much all free agent contract offers do.

You are probably right but my point was if that we are gonna criticize CC for taking the money, because he already has made millions in his career, then Mark A belongs in the same boat for lowballing CC in the first place when he has deep enough pockets to pay him. Especially when you factor in that his investment in the Brewers has doubled while CC managed the team. (and no, that is not all because of CC but the consistent on field success definitely helped increase that valuation)

If the market is willing to pay 5 yrs/ $40 million and you only offered 3 yrs/$16.5 million.... as much as folks keep trying to say CC left the Brewers for for a few million a year.... they conveniently ignore the fact that total contract value was $25 million more. Those years matter.... and I don't care how much money you've made in your life, $25 million is a lot of cheddar.

To be THAT far off in years and dollars.... it's an insult in and of itself. Personally, I think the years were as much a factor as anything in all of this - the club not going more than 3 years after the success CC had.... loyalty cuts both ways.

I've participated in this thread enough though and said my peace ~ Go Brewers!

[Pugger]

On 5/4/2024 at 9:10 PM, EddieTheCousin said:

So.... you'll stop being friends with someone that you work with when they chose to improve their quality of life by getting a better job?

Really?!?

Are you a Packers fan?  Did you have an issue with Favre worming his way out of NY so he could go to go to the Vikings?  I had no problem with CC wanting more bucks but not many Brewers fans were thrilled he decided to go to a divisional rival.

And when I talked about working at a fast food place I was talking about management and not the rank and file.

[Brian]

On 5/5/2024 at 1:05 AM, EddieTheCousin said:

Why doesn't this logic apply to Attanasio?

He saw the value of the Brewers increase by $800 million during the time CC managed the team - nearly a billion dollars and part of that was due to the on field success of the team - yet he couldn't match the Cubs offer and add $2.5 million a year to CC's deal?

If we are gonna talk about greed....

Brewers traded reliever Lucas Erceg to the Oakland Athletics for cash considerations in 2023.  Now sports an ERA of 1.93 with Oakland.  Greed or stupidity or just incompetence at the higher levels. 

[Brian]

1 minute ago, Brian said:

Brewers traded reliever Lucas Erceg to the Oakland Athletics for cash considerations in 2023.  Now sports an ERA of 1.93 with Oakland.  Greed or stupidity or just incompetence at the higher levels. 

Or maybe they just can't develop anyone anymore. 

[Thurston Fluff]

17 minutes ago, Brian said:

Brewers traded reliever Lucas Erceg to the Oakland Athletics for cash considerations in 2023.  Now sports an ERA of 1.93 with Oakland.  Greed or stupidity or just incompetence at the higher levels. 

Or it could be small sample size. Given his 4.17 ERA in 69 innings (which include the 14 innings of of 1.93 ERA) and his 5.07 minor league ERA over 124.1 innings it might be possible it wasn't greed, stupidity nor incompetence. Time will tell.

[KeithStone53151]

2 hours ago, Pugger said:

Are you a Packers fan?  Did you have an issue with Favre worming his way out of NY so he could go to go to the Vikings?  I had no problem with CC wanting more bucks but not many Brewers fans were thrilled he decided to go to a divisional rival.

And when I talked about working at a fast food place I was talking about management and not the rank and file.

The amount of hate Favre got should have made it obvious that Counsell would get flack for leaving and specifically going to the Cubs(or Cardinals). Comparing this decision by him to anything in our worlds is just completely different. People that work for Spectrum aren't going to be viewed negatively if they take more money to go work for AT&T. There aren't any Spectrum or AT&T fans. The dynamics are just completely different and not relatable. In Counsell's defense, his reasons for this decision were better than Favre's...whose decision seemed very vengeful/spiteful. That said, he still went to the enemy when he could have stayed or managed a number of other places. That action has consequences with the fans. If the money, personal, and family reasons are more valuable to him than the negative impact to his legacy in this state, fair enough I guess.

[KeithStone53151]

2 hours ago, Brian said:

Or maybe they just can't develop anyone anymore. 

Reeeeeally? Our bullpen is littered with low profile prospects that blossomed in relief under our watch. Payamps, Peguero, Megill, Milner, Wilson, etc. Crafting effective relievers is probably the thing the Brewers development is absolutely best at. This comment makes no sense, and seems to fit better in the 2023 and prior IGT's.

[Brian]

Maybe I should have said. We don't draft well.    August 18, 2022

Kansas City Royals designated RHP Joel Payamps for assignment.

Los Angeles Angels for RHP Janson Junk, RHP Elvis Peguero and LHP Adam Seminaris. we got from the Angels,

for Hunter Renfroe. 

Bryce Wilson from Atlanta

[Team Canada]

9 hours ago, Brian said:

Maybe I should have said. We don't draft well. 

Sorry, but that's not going to go over any better.

[MrTPlush]

On 5/5/2024 at 1:05 AM, EddieTheCousin said:

Why doesn't this logic apply to Attanasio?

He saw the value of the Brewers increase by $800 million during the time CC managed the team - nearly a billion dollars and part of that was due to the on field success of the team - yet he couldn't match the Cubs offer and add $2.5 million a year to CC's deal?

If we are gonna talk about greed....

Actually, basically none of it was. Spending money on a pro sport franchise's payroll is basically just flushing money down the drain. If it was about maximizing money Attanasio would run them like the A's or any of the other small markets under us. Team valuations will follow the league value and the value of other teams. Largely because the team can always be sold and moved pretty easily. Our fanbase could turn into the A's fanbase and the value of the team wouldn't really change at all. String together 5 90+ loss seasons...won't do anything. The A's couldn't have a worse stadium or fanbase...yet still worth over a billion dollars. 

[Thurston Fluff]

18 hours ago, Brian said:

Maybe I should have said. We don't draft well.    August 18, 2022

Kansas City Royals designated RHP Joel Payamps for assignment.

Los Angeles Angels for RHP Janson Junk, RHP Elvis Peguero and LHP Adam Seminaris. we got from the Angels,

for Hunter Renfroe. 

Bryce Wilson from Atlanta

The Brewers may be one of the best drafting teams in baseball. The way they manipulate the pool money to get hard to sign players that other teams don't even try to draft signed every year is well ahead of the league. Coming into the season five of the top ten MLB.com prospects were drafted by the Brewers, four were international signings and one was via trade. Go down any of the lists from any team and you'd be hard pressed to find as good a farm with as many players drafted topping the list.

 

 

[Brian]

The way they manipulate the pool money to get hard to sign players that other teams don't even try to draft signed every year is well ahead of the league. 

???? If other teams don't try to draft them how can they be hard to sign players ????

[Guest]

4 hours ago, MrTPlush said:

Actually, basically none of it was. Spending money on a pro sport franchise's payroll is basically just flushing money down the drain. If it was about maximizing money Attanasio would run them like the A's or any of the other small markets under us. Team valuations will follow the league value and the value of other teams. Largely because the team can always be sold and moved pretty easily. Our fanbase could turn into the A's fanbase and the value of the team wouldn't really change at all. String together 5 90+ loss seasons...won't do anything. The A's couldn't have a worse stadium or fanbase...yet still worth over a billion dollars. 

Oakland A's valuation in 2015: 725 million
Oakland A's valuation in 2024: 1.1 billion

Milwaukee Brewers valuation in 2015: 875 million
Milwaukee Brewers valuation in 2024: 1.6 billion