Brewers' payroll discussion

[liveforoctober]

37 minutes ago, bigred said:

Don't need a number. Simply attempting to make a meaningful move or 2 would be nice. They don't though. 

With all due respect I think this is kind of a short sighted view on how to field a competitive team from our position. Because of multiple factors, we can't afford to give the big FA the $$ it would take to get them here so we have to operate differently. We are a ground up organization as opposed to a top down one.

Do we not consider large investments into our foreign academy/structure a 'meaningful' move? The upgrades to the spring training facility?  The continual promotions in the FO to avoid our guys getting poached?

So when the Brewers have a good year and are in the green and fans say "invest in the team!!" ... I am happy the team is looking at that comment from a much bigger picture than just "go sign a name"; there could be a really good argument that the few times we have signed a guy "to make a meaningful move" in the last few decades at an attempt to be competitive... it has not produced results any better than when we have spent our capital elsewhere to make the organization as a whole better.

[bigred]

3 hours ago, wiguy94 said:

Go root for another team then

Nope. I'll continue to root for the Crew. I'm just done having faith in them actually trying to win a championship. All that's been doing, is setting myself up for  disappointment. Year in, year out. 

[brewerfan82]

43 minutes ago, bigred said:

Like I and others have said before, and will continue to say, then they need to stop lying to our fan base by claiming they're trying to bring Milwaukee a championship. 

I'm confused by this response. I'm curious what your version of them showing they're trying to win a championship looks like that proves they are lying to the fanbase.

My post showed how 5 other similar-payroll teams have made it to the World Series in the past 10 seasons (2 of them winning it). And their "pushes" for the playoffs don't look much different than what the Brewers have done. So it's hard to argue that you can only make it to the World Series using more aggressive strategies.

I think the best comparison for what *I think* you are wanting to see are the two Marlin titles. That's a legit alternative strategy, but they've also been an extremely awful team outside those championships because of it (and they could have very easily not even gotten those two titles with that strategy).

All that said, I think you've set yourself up for disappointment by misinterpreting what the Brewers have said (long-term sustained success IS a legitimate World Series strategy), having incorrect perceptions of what other teams are doing "to go for it", and pigeon-holing yourself into believing that irresponsibly mortgaging the future is the only way to win a championship, when several recent examples prove that incorrect.

There are so many reasons to enjoy this team, the run they've been on the past eight seasons, and to be optimistic about it moving forward. It's such a waste to be so disgruntled about it.

[bigred]

1 minute ago, brewerfan82 said:

I'm confused by this response. I'm curious what your version of them showing they're trying to win a championship looks like that proves they are lying to the fanbase.

My post showed how 5 other similar-payroll teams have made it to the World Series in the past 10 seasons (2 of them winning it). And their "pushes" for the playoffs don't look much different than what the Brewers have done. So it's hard to argue that you can only make it to the World Series using more aggressive strategies.

I think the best comparison for what *I think* you are wanting to see are the two Marlin titles. That's a legit alternative strategy, but they've also been an extremely awful team outside those championships because of it (and they could have very easily not even gotten those two titles with that strategy).

All that said, I think you've set yourself up for disappointment by misinterpreting what the Brewers have said (long-term sustained success IS a legitimate World Series strategy), having incorrect perceptions of what other teams are doing "to go for it", and pigeon-holing yourself into believing that irresponsibly mortgaging the future is the only way to win a championship, when several recent examples prove that incorrect.

There are so many reasons to enjoy this team, the run they've been on the past eight seasons, and to be optimistic about it moving forward. It's such a waste to be so disgruntled about it.

You and others here can keep having blind faith. That's your right. I will not though, because I'm sick of having high hopes going into the season, then experience more disappointment when they promptly get bounced in the playoffs. 

[TURBO]

In all reality, there isn't much to discuss.

They will be around that 100-110 million, not much deviation.

Discussing their payroll is kind of a waste of time.

They won't be players in any big time free agents, we might be able to snag a bargain the later it gets, but that is really about all we can expect.

The way the Dodgers are set up right now, it's probably a good idea to do nothing anyway.  Nothing we can do now will be enough to knock them off the top of the heap.

MLB is broken, the sooner we all accept it, the better off we will be.

[sveumrules]

13 minutes ago, TURBO said:

the sooner we all accept it, the better off we will be.

Bingo. Cot's has the Dodgers up over $300M, there are three more teams (NYY, NYM, PHI) just under that amount by ten fifteen million. There are another five (SDP, ATL, TEX, HOU, TOR) around $210M to $240M.

The Brewers could add $50M to overtake the Orioles for the 15th highest payroll in MLB and still be $50M short of the fifth spendiest team in the NL (SDP) and $20M short of the Cubs.

Given the disparities they are up against there really isn't that much difference between running a $110M and a $160M payroll. Making a couple big moves wouldn't come close to getting them over any kind of hump.

[homer]

sign Jesus Made to a 15 year $150 million deal 🤪

[bigred]

3 hours ago, brewerfan82 said:

I'm confused by this response. I'm curious what your version of them showing they're trying to win a championship looks like that proves they are lying to the fanbase.

My post showed how 5 other similar-payroll teams have made it to the World Series in the past 10 seasons (2 of them winning it). And their "pushes" for the playoffs don't look much different than what the Brewers have done. So it's hard to argue that you can only make it to the World Series using more aggressive strategies.

I think the best comparison for what *I think* you are wanting to see are the two Marlin titles. That's a legit alternative strategy, but they've also been an extremely awful team outside those championships because of it (and they could have very easily not even gotten those two titles with that strategy).

All that said, I think you've set yourself up for disappointment by misinterpreting what the Brewers have said (long-term sustained success IS a legitimate World Series strategy), having incorrect perceptions of what other teams are doing "to go for it", and pigeon-holing yourself into believing that irresponsibly mortgaging the future is the only way to win a championship, when several recent examples prove that incorrect.

There are so many reasons to enjoy this team, the run they've been on the past eight seasons, and to be optimistic about it moving forward. It's such a waste to be so disgruntled about it.

I didn't misunderstand anything they've said. What they've claimed time and time again since MA and the ownership group took over, that they intend to bring a championship to Milwaukee, definitely isn't being proven by their actions. They've made 1 big trade(the Yelich deal), and absolutely nothing since. Even with a very deep farm system for a few years now. Like I said, if some fans want to keep having blind faith, that's their right. I will not. Their words mean nothing, and their actions mean EVERYTHING. In their case though, it's their lack of actions. 

[sveumrules]

6 minutes ago, bigred said:

They've made 1 big trade(the Yelich deal), and absolutely nothing since.

Adames and Contreras were pretty big trade acquisitions.

[bigred]

Just now, sveumrules said:

Adames and Contreras were pretty big trade acquisitions.

Hindsight is always 20/20. Adames was a high rated prospect coming up, but was sort of underwhelming once in the majors, and even though Contreras showed promise in Atlanta, it wasn't a given that he would continue to get better. 

[bigred]

7 minutes ago, sveumrules said:

Adames and Contreras were pretty big trade acquisitions.

I'm mainly tired of them not using the deep farm system we've had for a few years now. At all. Not all of our higher prospects will make it to Milwaukee, so they might as well try using some to get better now, before some get injured or fizzle out, and lose pretty much all of their trade value. 

[brewerfan82]

24 minutes ago, bigred said:

I'm mainly tired of them not using the deep farm system we've had for a few years now. At all. Not all of our higher prospects will make it to Milwaukee, so they might as well try using some to get better now, before some get injured or fizzle out, and lose pretty much all of their trade value. 

I'm sure they're available for the right deal, but not trading those guys is also why we've had this run we're on now. Burnes, Woodruff, Peralta, Hader, Williams, Turang, Mitchell, Chourio, etc., were all prospects we either drafted or traded into our system and could have been used in trades and I'm glad they didn't. Then turning Burnes, Hader, and Williams into Ortiz, Hall, Gasser, Payamps and Contreras (eventually), Cortes, and Durbin are the kinds of moves that keep this cycle of success going.

They have been willing to trade the depth of the system for guys like Carlos Santana, Mark Canha, Frankie Montas, Aaron Civale, Willy Adames, etc., as needed or opportunity has presented itself. But they need to be careful with the higher potential guys, which is why you probably haven't seen any "blockbuster" deals since Yelich.

[CheeseheadInQC]

9 minutes ago, bigred said:

I'm mainly tired of them not using the deep farm system we've had for a few years now. At all. 

1. I already know you aren’t going to consider this an example, but if they didn’t have that deep farm system, I am guessing the Devin Williams trade ends up more prospect based instead of a trade from a position of strength to shore up an area of weakness deal.

2. Until recently, most of the top-level depth was in the form of upper-level bats: Turang, Mitchell, Frelick, Chourio briefly, you know, the guys they are counting on to play. They could have sold high on Wiemer, but I don’t blame them for tossing him, Mitchell and Frelick out there and seeing which ones were the best.

3. The level of depth the Brewers have right now is due in no small part to the 2023 draft and the 2024 IFA class, both of which are pretty recent.

[liveforoctober]

3 hours ago, bigred said:

You and others here can keep having blind faith. That's your right. I will not though, because I'm sick of having high hopes going into the season, then experience more disappointment when they promptly get bounced in the playoffs. 

So you went into last season having lost Woodruff and Burnes + all of the unknowns with our roster + having a new manager + making "no effort" to acquire anyone to move the needle ... and you still had such high expectations that our team UNDERPERFORMED to your liking and left you disappointed?

 

 

[SF70]

4 hours ago, bigred said:

You and others here can keep having blind faith. That's your right. I will not though, because I'm sick of having high hopes going into the season, then experience more disappointment when they promptly get bounced in the playoffs. 

“Blind faith”?

We have an award-winning front office that has had the best initial 8 year run of any small-market team, maybe ever.

They started off rebuilding in record time (1 year), and have won every full season since, and done so while completely rebuilding their infrastructure. 

They have completely earned my trust and faith in what they are doing. To think otherwise is illogical and makes zero (0) sense.

They have a plan and are not winging it. Relax and enjoy this next decade-long run of winning. They are focused on accumulating impact prospects and building the best & deepest farm system in baseball and for an extended period of time. 

Extentions to some of the best of this prospect talent will give Chourio a chance to play with this impact talent thru his and their prime. Arnold & co are building a small-market dynasty before our very eyes.

[bigred]

3 hours ago, CheeseheadInQC said:

1. I already know you aren’t going to consider this an example, but if they didn’t have that deep farm system, I am guessing the Devin Williams trade ends up more prospect based instead of a trade from a position of strength to shore up an area of weakness deal.

2. Until recently, most of the top-level depth was in the form of upper-level bats: Turang, Mitchell, Frelick, Chourio briefly, you know, the guys they are counting on to play. They could have sold high on Wiemer, but I don’t blame them for tossing him, Mitchell and Frelick out there and seeing which ones were the best.

3. The level of depth the Brewers have right now is due in no small part to the 2023 draft and the 2024 IFA class, both of which are pretty recent.

They've had a deep farm system for more than the past 2 years. I have absolutely no problem trying to understand other people's opinions here, but it's been obvious for a while now, that there's a big group here that are completely closed minded to the opinions of mine and a couple others on here. They refuse to even attempt to understand, and and get all hot and bothered every time their opinions are challenged. 

[bigred]

3 hours ago, liveforoctober said:

So you went into last season having lost Woodruff and Burnes + all of the unknowns with our roster + having a new manager + making "no effort" to acquire anyone to move the needle ... and you still had such high expectations that our team UNDERPERFORMED to your liking and left you disappointed?

 

 

No. Several years ago, I already came to terms with the likely outcome, of Milwaukee never winning a championship. Their chances of winning one, are about a 1%. 

[bigred]

2 hours ago, SF70 said:

“Blind faith”?

We have an award-winning front office that has had the best initial 8 year run of any small-market team, maybe ever.

They started off rebuilding in record time (1 year), and have won every full season since, and done so while completely rebuilding their infrastructure. 

They have completely earned my trust and faith in what they are doing. To think otherwise is illogical and makes zero (0) sense.

They have a plan and are not winging it. Relax and enjoy this next decade-long run of winning. They are focused on accumulating impact prospects and building the best & deepest farm system in baseball and for an extended period of time. 

Extentions to some of the best of this prospect talent will give Chourio a chance to play with this impact talent thru his and their prime. Arnold & co are building a small-market dynasty before our very eyes.

Yes. Blind faith. That's exactly what many people on here rely on, year after year, the get pissed when they're bounced in their first playoff series. 

[Ignitor 4ever]

3 minutes ago, bigred said:

They've had a deep farm system for more than the past 2 years. I have absolutely no problem trying to understand other people's opinions here, but it's been obvious for a while now, that there's a big group here that are completely closed minded to the opinions of mine and a couple others on here. They refuse to even attempt to understand, and and get all hot and bothered every time their opinions are challenged. 

Based on your posts, I'm going to guess that you are in your early to mid 20's.  You have no recollection of what it was like to wait 26 years to go back to the playoffs and suffer through some truly awful teams (with a couple good ones) during that stretch.  What the Brewers have accomplished since 2008, and especially since about 2017, is incredible.  Other than the wacked out 2020 season, the Brewers have won 86, 96, 89, 95, 86, 92 and 93 games from 2017-2024.  As a small market team, that is incredible and deserves our praise, not our whining.  Sure, we'd all like to see the team get over the hump and back to the World Series and I'm sure management is at the top of the list.  They've had the teams to do it but breaks haven't gone our way.  Oh well, that's baseball.  Enjoy these years, because it is certainly not guaranteed that it will last. 

[Soupy]

Homer brings up a Made extension of 15/150. What do you all think it would take after this year of Made blowing up Class A?

[liveforoctober]

1 hour ago, bigred said:

No. Several years ago, I already came to terms with the likely outcome, of Milwaukee never winning a championship. Their chances of winning one, are about a 1%. 

My guy you are a fan of the wrong team. I agree with you our chances of winning the world series are slim... but how many teams have a "better than slim" chance? 6? 8?

We are in the majority and we are one of the best of those remaining. If you want to cheer for a team that has a lot of money, why don't you do that?

Everything you are posting right now is all just getting back to the fact you wish we could spend or overpay with assets to "make an attempt". I'm not mad at you man, but the Cubs should be your team here in the Midwest. They have the luxury of overpaying for their on field product. We don't.

[Brian]

How are the Milwaukee Brewers sustaining success? Part 1 and 2.

https://www.vivaelbirdos.com/st-louis-cardinals-sabermetrics-analysis/2025/1/25/24315433/how-are-the-milwaukie-brewers-sustaining-success

https://www.vivaelbirdos.com/2025/1/25/24352001/how-are-the-milwaukee-brewers-sustaining-success-version-2

[bigred]

3 hours ago, Ignitor 4ever said:

Based on your posts, I'm going to guess that you are in your early to mid 20's.  You have no recollection of what it was like to wait 26 years to go back to the playoffs and suffer through some truly awful teams (with a couple good ones) during that stretch.  What the Brewers have accomplished since 2008, and especially since about 2017, is incredible.  Other than the wacked out 2020 season, the Brewers have won 86, 96, 89, 95, 86, 92 and 93 games from 2017-2024.  As a small market team, that is incredible and deserves our praise, not our whining.  Sure, we'd all like to see the team get over the hump and back to the World Series and I'm sure management is at the top of the list.  They've had the teams to do it but breaks haven't gone our way.  Oh well, that's baseball.  Enjoy these years, because it is certainly not guaranteed that it will last. 

Wow. I wish I was still in my early to mid 20's. Lol 

[bigred]

2 hours ago, liveforoctober said:

My guy you are a fan of the wrong team. I agree with you our chances of winning the world series are slim... but how many teams have a "better than slim" chance? 6? 8?

We are in the majority and we are one of the best of those remaining. If you want to cheer for a team that has a lot of money, why don't you do that?

Everything you are posting right now is all just getting back to the fact you wish we could spend or overpay with assets to "make an attempt". I'm not mad at you man, but the Cubs should be your team here in the Midwest. They have the luxury of overpaying for their on field product. We don't.

Wrong. Why does almost everyone here always think making moves to try and get over the hump, means adding boatloads of salary? I've said many times now, that since they've had a deep farm system for several years now, I'm beyond frustrated that they basically refuse to make a significant move by using it, to try and get better. Maybe if you actually read all of my comments, and actually tried to understand my point somewhat, instead of just rapidly scanning through them in a hurry to respond, you'd know ive said that many times. 

[CheeseheadInQC]

9 hours ago, bigred said:

They've had a deep farm system for more than the past 2 years. I have absolutely no problem trying to understand other people's opinions here, but it's been obvious for a while now, that there's a big group here that are completely closed minded to the opinions of mine and a couple others on here. They refuse to even attempt to understand, and and get all hot and bothered every time their opinions are challenged. 

No they really didn't, at least not since the graduations of Woodruff, Burnes, Peralta and Hader and the Yelich and other sundry trades emptied out the top tier of the system. In fact, much of the Brewers' success in the time since the resulting NLCS appearance can be attributed to them keeping the right prospects from that group. It felt deeper during some of the later intervening years, in part because you could begin to see them having more success developing the IFAs they signed, but it really wasn't in the top tier, which is where the core of those "big trades" comes from.