Heyman on CC (Will Craig Counsell be the Brewer manager next year?)

[Sixtolezcano]

2 hours ago, RobertCrawley said:

I sure hope not. I'd hate to be mid pack/lower pack again for the next 10 years.

The only silver lining is you can get seats behind home plate in September for $15 when your team is terrible.

What difference is that then losing 2 games in October. Actually, it might be preferable. They could always win that $15.00 game and have great seats.

[Sixtolezcano]

Everyone on this site is so scared/worried that Counsell will leave for another job. If anything was seen in this last playoff series(and throughout the seasons) is that Counsell isn’t a god and immune to making boneheaded and questionable decisions. It is extremely possible that there isn’t much difference between him and any other candidate. If anything, he has gotten stale here and made push button automatic decisions (like substituting players that play the same position in the batting order from game to game, for one). His main claim to fame is the use of his bullpen and having relievers starting games when his staff is in a bind. These practices are used across the league now. He has been good here (maybe even great), but I think it is the perfect time to make a change that is due.

[sobomp3]

I was defending Counsell all year to friends/family - "It'll be fun not sniffing the postseason for a decade", I'd say. The fact that he got this group to win a division is something else. But the management of the last two games has even me throwing in the towel.

[brewers888]

39 minutes ago, Sixtolezcano said:

Everyone on this site is so scared/worried that Counsell will leave for another job. If anything was seen in this last playoff series(and throughout the seasons) is that Counsell isn’t a god and immune to making boneheaded and questionable decisions. It is extremely possible that there isn’t much difference between him and any other candidate. If anything, he has gotten stale here and made push button automatic decisions (like substituting players that play the same position in the batting order from game to game, for one). His main claim to fame is the use of his bullpen and having relievers starting games when his staff is in a bind. These practices are used across the league now. He has been good here (maybe even great), but I think it is the perfect time to make a change that is due.

Counsell has been a good manager this two game series aside but a baseball manager doesn't have the affect that the GM does or the coach in a sport like football does. The fact that Ned Yost won a World Series tells you that the manager of a baseball team isn't worth breaking the bank for.

[True Blue Brew Crew]

Maybe Counsell wants to wait and see who the new owner is

No different than speculating on if he hates Stearns, loves Arnold, hates Arnold, or loves Stearns

[sveumrules]

3 hours ago, True Blue Brew Crew said:

Maybe Counsell wants to wait and see who the new owner is

No different than speculating on if he hates Stearns, loves Arnold, hates Arnold, or loves Stearns

I thought your expectation for a sale was Spring 2025, maybe Feb 2024 at the earliest?

Or has the timeline moved up now?

 

[patrickgpe]

When was the last manager that the fans actually liked? Yost, Roenicke, Macha, Lopes all had distractors. I don't know you if you can put Garner in that category because expectations were never that large under him. Managers make mistakes and its easy to play manager sitting on your sofa with a beer. The brewers never achieved the ultimate goal under Counsell (if he is indeed gone), but they had success not really seen. I'm expecting a rebuild starting next season with some starters traded and a new manager. Also the pool of up and coming managers seems to be light, so those celebrating the end of Counsell, should be careful what they wish for. 

[homer]

He's the best manager in the game. Obviously, he is not infallible. The Winker decision was a real head-scratcher for example.   The Brewers have had a better record than their Pythagorean every year he's been manager.  Put another way, you could argue that the Brewers outperform their talent level every year. He consistently does the little things to win at the margins. 

[wiguy94]

13 minutes ago, homer said:

He's the best manager in the game. Obviously, he is not infallible. The Winker decision was a real head-scratcher for example.   The Brewers have had a better record than their Pythagorean every year he's been manager.  Put another way, you could argue that the Brewers outperform their talent level every year. He consistently does the little things to win at the margins. 

Brewers have overperformed their Pythagorean by 5 total games over the last 3 years. That’s really nothing special.

[jerichoholicninja]

Eppler resigns amidst IL-gate. Does Craig really want to get involved with the mess the Mets are? Not saying he'll be back but he'll have the pick of whatever job he wants. Why would he chose the Mets.

[RWeeksFan23]

On 10/5/2023 at 7:06 AM, MrTPlush said:

After the last two days, I really don’t care if he leaves. It was a great ride Stearns/Counsell. However, it equated to zero postseason success. Year after year of flops. Time to try and see if something else can make it happen.

Counsell had nothing to do with the playoff losses.

[RWeeksFan23]

Idk why so many people in this thread are questioning/criticizing Counsell for the playoff losses, Counsell had nothing to do with us losing that series.

[BrewerFan]

On 10/5/2023 at 8:47 AM, jerichoholicninja said:

Stearns didn't hire Counsell. Interestingly, Stearns has actually never hired a manager. If David has any sort of an ego I would think he wouldn't want to hire Craig. He would want to find his own guy. And considering some of the aging, has been and never was crap players that Stearns would routinely saddle Craig with I wouldn't be surprised if he really isn't interested in working for him. If Counsell isn't back in Milwaukee I'm still putting my money on Cleveland.

C'mon...Counsell isn't an idiot. He understands why Stearns had to "saddle" Craig with aging players at some spots and that this PROBABLY wouldn't be an issue in New York.

I don't think Counsell has any negative feelings about the type of players Stearns was able to acquire for him or at the very least assigns some malice to it and is holding a grudge. They worked well together, we saw them talk about it regularly, Counsell was a part of the decision making process, he'd worked in the front office. 

He's not reacting like Eric Lauer to these moves. Stearns to NYM is just a perfect fit, it's like Friedman to the Dodgers. If you take that job, I think there's a pretty good chance that maybe not next year but by '25-'26, you'll be on a team that's regularly winning 90-100 games. 

I'm still skeptical that CC wants to leave and go manage baseball in New York, but I don't know the guy. We're all viewing this through our own lens. Give me the choice between managing a well run team and I get to keep my family in place, I don't need to uproot them, I get paid 5M instead of 10M a year, maybe we're not as good of a team, but we're still a competitive team...I'm staying home, sacrificing a little money.

 

[BrewerFan]

On 10/5/2023 at 12:45 PM, Sixtolezcano said:

What difference is that then losing 2 games in October. Actually, it might be preferable. They could always win that $15.00 game and have great seats.

What's the difference between being a 90+ win playoff team and a .500 team?

Is that the question you're asking? 

[BrewerFan]

22 minutes ago, RWeeksFan23 said:

Idk why so many people in this thread are questioning/criticizing Counsell for the playoff losses, Counsell had nothing to do with us losing that series.

Yes he did. 

He's not THE reason they lost, he IS an elite manager, he's proven that repeatedly, he's a huge net positive...but he was not good in this series. He made some baffling decisions, Winker twice, Frelick with the bases loaded over Wiemer, he made bad decisions. 

 

I know there feel like two "sides" right now. There are some tantrums being thrown and just a wide range of responses to a sh*** lost series, but you really can't say the decision making in that series or even the roster management for that matter was great.

Winker is the most egregious. The 2nd at bat in particular. He should have gone to the IL and Tellez added. 

 

This is feeling like a political argument where you want to scratch and claw for every point because you don't want to cede any points to the "other side." You should be able to say, "that was a stupid move, but he's still a really good manager." 

Also, your post just lent itself to this response, I really didn't mean to dump it all on your. It's just a place to respond to it all. I haven't seen you posting a lot, so it's definitely just a general comment, not trying to tee off on your particular take. 

[Bulldogboy]

People talking about Counsell going to New York. 😆 he will be looking around for Sophia after the game and there will be 20 guys asking him questions like how in the heck are you hitting Winker there?? He doesn't know how good he has it. Having no real media makes life here super easy.

[boringname123]

2 hours ago, RWeeksFan23 said:

Idk why so many people in this thread are questioning/criticizing Counsell for the playoff losses, Counsell had nothing to do with us losing that series.

He had nothing to do with losing the series but he might have been the reason why they didn't win.

[JollyCharlie]

Great manager when it comes to use of pitchers, especially the pen-if he leaves I wouldn't mind the recently released Mets skipper.

[BrewerFan]

3 minutes ago, JollyCharlie said:

Great manager when it comes to use of pitchers, especially the pen-if he leaves I wouldn't mind the recently released Mets skipper.

Buck Showalter? Hard pass. 

[Jim French Stepstool]

3 hours ago, RWeeksFan23 said:

Counsell had nothing to do with the playoff losses.

I'd be on board with saying he wasn't the MAIN factor. But I think he had work gloves on during some of his normally adept button-pushing. Right or wrong, he likes to lean on veterans when he can, like the obviously questionable choices to have Winker PH. Yet he stayed with Frelick, who was slumping. In that case I guess you wonder why Miller was added to the roster (Monasterio had already been used).

As far as the CC rumors, which of course are going to be blown to universal proportions because Mets, I'll stick with the original rumors that if he isn't back managing he'll be de-compressing in some FO job. 0% chance of going to NY? No, more like 20-25% IMO.

[wallus]

Can we offer CC the QO?

[rickh150]

Winker decision ALL YEAR is Soup/Marcum….Einhorn is Finkel, Finkel is Einhorn. The playoff pinch hits are just the rotten cherry on top. Throw in Hiura and that garbage and the whole way the team manages the DH position, and the batting lineup decisions begin to pop up regularly… Winker/Adames/Rowdy as #2,3,4 half the year? Bring up Frelick to hit clean up? The guy is up there hacking instead of playing his game to just hit ball hard and get on base,… going to knee on ground in Game 2. 
I would prefer CC stay put, but there are question marks.

[True Blue Brew Crew]

21 hours ago, sveumrules said:

I thought your expectation for a sale was Spring 2025, maybe Feb 2024 at the earliest?

Or has the timeline moved up now?

 

You thought wrong...

Quote

I expect Mark A to have the team either sold or on the block by Spring of 2025. Possibly even by this time next year.

Ya know for someone seemingly so offended by someone's personal speculation to the extent you've stalked me now 3 separate times to combat it, you aren't very good at remembering what it was that was speculated.

And as also speculated if Mark A had let it be known possibly 1-2 years back to people in the Brewers organization his intent to sell once the future of the stadium was locked up, it would actually align well with recent departures and Counsell's non-committal.

I'm sorry that my own musings of how well positioned the team would be to sell once the stadium deal is complete, offends you so much.

[Axman59]

On 10/5/2023 at 8:29 AM, nate82 said:

This is completely 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000% false.  Arnold and Counsell are good friends in fact early in the morning in Whitefish Bay you can see them taking walks together and discussing baseball.  That doesn't sound like they don't get along with each other. 

https://www.mlb.com/news/craig-counsell-matt-arnold-work-in-step

There are more articles about Counsell's and Arnold's friendship than there is of there being him not getting along with Arnold.

I am not sure why everyone is saying the Mets and the Mets are the only team in baseball that will pay big money for a manager.  Currently the highest paid manager is only paid about $6m a season with not the Yankees and not the Mets oh wait it is the Dodgers....... Wait are the Dodgers still in Brooklyn?  I think they play in Los Angeles now?  Anyways your right the only place that will pay a large amount is New York.  The Mets only paid Showalter $3.5m wait that has to be typo because we all know Cohan overpays for everything! The real number was $30.5m!!!!! It must be the lying press because we all know Cohan overpays whenever he can!

Seriously?  You don't believe the Giants, Blue Jays or the White Sox won't pay top dollar for a manager because??? Just because someone can outspend doesn't mean they will.  I also don't believe money is the driving point for Counsell I think being in contention for a WS is the driving point for Counsell and the way the Mets are currently constructed with no starting pitching and an aging core is not that appealing even at $10-15m a year if your goal is to be contending for a WS.  I don't believe Counsell will want to be on a rebuild which I think is what Stearns is going to do with the Mets.  He is going to go out and get the players he wants and I wouldn't be surprised if Stearns shakes up the whole roster by trading some of the vets on that team though I am not sure he will be able to get much for Lindor. 

For WS aspirations the Blue Jays make the most sense.  They have under performed offensively with the talent they have with Vlad, Bichette and others.  Toronto is also not afraid of giving out big contracts so hiring Counsell to a hefty contract to be their manager wouldn't be surprising at all.  Toronto is also very similar to what the Brewers have now though with more talented hitters.  The Giants are also another team that wouldn't be afraid of spending money on Counsell or on the team either as they are rumored to be a team willing to spend on Ohtani this off season. 

The Blue Jays should probably be the favorites if they let go of their current manager for Counsell as the team would be willing to spend both on players to improve their team and on a manager to get them over the hump in the playoffs. 

CC is not going to Toronto.

[homer]

The "thumbs" related posts were moved to the Issues Forum. Nothing was deleted.

https://brewerfanatic.com/forums/forum/12-brewer-fanatic-issues-suggestions/