Robert Murray on Brewers and CC

[patrickgpe]

23 minutes ago, MVP2110 said:

Brewers will get an opportunity to match whatever Counsell's top offer is but he won't take a hometown discount. Counsell reportedly wants to be paid atleast $7 mil per year which $2 mil more than what the highest paid manager this past year 

 

 

 

I get the feeling it’s not about money but I could be wrong. If he just wants to gauge his worth, that’s his right. I always thought it’s about not wanting to rebuild with payroll constraints. 

[Matt]

9 minutes ago, homer said:

I think the Brewers would go for $7 million. If it gets up to $ 10 million I think he's gone.

It's incredibly silly if CC is let go over any amount of money. $3 million is an accounting error for MA. It's an average middle reliever. 

If the report is true, that CC is back if the Brewers make him highest paid, it's the easiest decision Antanasio has had to make yet.

[SeaBass]

17 minutes ago, patrickgpe said:

I get the feeling it’s not about money but I could be wrong. If he just wants to gauge his worth, that’s his right. I always thought it’s about not wanting to rebuild with payroll constraints. 

There's literally no reason to doubt the story, he wants to reset the manager salary market . Multiple sources have been saying it for weeks. Now you could float the idea he's bluffing which is possible, maybe he won't hard line the absolute top of the market but the JS article says the Brewers have already offered him a contract that would top the current market and he still chose to take interviews.

I'm inclined to let him leave. My belief (pure speculation) is that the Brewers have offered in the range of $5.5 to $6 million. Maybe they match $7 but there's also the part of me that feels like I don't want to be part of the clown show where he's having teams out bid each other just so he can make his preferred team raise their offer. The hell with that, you want to play bidding war games then bye bye, see ya later.

[patrickgpe]

10 minutes ago, SeaBass said:

There's literally no reason to doubt the story, he wants to reset the manager salary market . Multiple sources have been saying it for weeks. Now you could float the idea he's bluffing which is possible, maybe he won't hard line the absolute top of the market but the JS article says the Brewers have already offered him a contract that would top the current market and he still chose to take interviews.

I'm inclined to let him leave. My belief (pure speculation) is that the Brewers have offered in the range of $5.5 to $6 million. Maybe they match $7 but there's also the part of me that feels like I don't want to be part of the clown show where he's having teams out bid each other just so he can make his preferred team raise their offer. The hell with that, you want to play bidding war games then bye bye, see ya later.

I said I could be wrong, wasn’t doubting the story. I hope he resets the managers salary and ownership steps up to keep him so he can continue to destroy the teams managerial win record. 

[Matt]

21 minutes ago, SeaBass said:

I'm inclined to let him leave. My belief (pure speculation) is that the Brewers have offered in the range of $5.5 to $6 million. Maybe they match $7 but there's also the part of me that feels like I don't want to be part of the clown show where he's having teams out bid each other just so he can make his preferred team raise their offer. The hell with that, you want to play bidding war games then bye bye, see ya later.

Why? Who cares if it's $7 million or $10? It's not our money. There's no managerial salary cap to consider. If the place where the Brewers can gain or keep a competitive advantage is with (relatively cheap) management, then just do it.

If Counsell is actually giving the Brewers the option of keeping him, pay the guy and say thank you.

[SeaBass]

1 minute ago, Matt said:

Why? Who cares if it's $7 million or $10? It's not our money. There's no managerial salary cap to consider. If the place where the Brewers can gain or keep a competitive advantage is with (relatively cheap) management, then just do it.

If Counsell is actually giving the Brewers the option of keeping him, pay the guy and say thank you.

Because you can pay someone else less to do the exact same thing and I'd rather spend money on players. Pretty simple. Managers don't have to hit a fastball, they don't strike out, they don't pitch or play defense. This idea that CC is irreplaceable is fantastically over the top dumb.

[SeaBass]

8 minutes ago, Matt said:

If the place where the Brewers can gain or keep a competitive advantage is with (relatively cheap) management, then just do it.

It's not cheap though. He could be getting a 5 year contract, at $7 million per year that's $35 million when you could easily pay less than half of that on a new guy. $35 million in non-player salary or $10 million? You don't think having an extra $25 million is a good thing?

[MadScientist]

He's worth 7M easily.  See if he'll go for 5/35.  CC gets to reset the market an have a long contract, and the Brewers get stability, plus in 5 years the contract may not seem so large.

[homer]

3 minutes ago, SeaBass said:

It's not cheap though. He could be getting a 5 year contract, at $7 million per year that's $35 million when you could easily pay less than half of that on a new guy. $35 million in non-player salary or $10 million? You don't think having an extra $25 million is a good thing?

Guess it depends on how many extra wins you think Counsell provides over a player making the same amount of money 

[Matt]

How about doing both? Pay the manager, and pay the players.

The Brewers aren't going to lose a player over an extra $3 million a year unless they're not actually interested in getting said player. 

[wallus]

[torts]

Bruce bochy made $6 mil this year

[Matt]

1 minute ago, torts said:

Bruce bochy made $6 mil this year

Imagine if the Rangers had let him go over a couple million. 

[Matt]

The Brewers can't compete with big markets when it comes to paying players. If a guy wants $300 million or $30 million a year, it's not going to happen. It could be half those amounts and the Brewers are going to be outbid. 

The only level playing ground the Brewers can operate on is management and organizational hires, and that's probably not going to be the case much longer either. Milwaukee just happens to have a really, really good home grown guy who may be willing to spend his career in the town, and all it will take is paying the going rate. This shouldn't be any kind of hard decision. 

[SeaBass]

Thing is, if the Brewers have already hypothetically offered $6 then upping it to $7 isn't inherently a bad thing. To me it's more about how he's playing the nickel and dime game to get there. It's his right but if he really wants to manage in Milwaukee, it's his dream, he loves it, then why wring the last penny he possibly can? I both understand and don't at the same time.

I just refuse to adhere to the idea that no price is too high. And when you do the thing and give the money for 5 or even 6 years, what happens when 3 years in things aren't going the way you want and want to make a change? You eat 3 years and $21 million dollars. Why? Because you let yourself believe that nobody else could do it? Folly.

Not long ago Joe Maddon was the best thing since sliced bread, then the team he took to its first World Series in over a century declined to even offer him an extension and allowed his contract to expire. The next team that hired him fired him after less than two full seasons.

[SeaBass]

20 minutes ago, torts said:

Bruce bochy made $6 mil this year

He's managed 4 World Series champions, managed a 5th team that lost a WS and been to 4 other LCS's. I'd pay him too.

[TURBO]

26 minutes ago, Matt said:

 

The Brewers aren't going to lose a player over an extra $3 million a year unless they're not actually interested in getting said player. 

ummmm, are you new to Brewers fandom?

They absolutely would and have lost players over an extra 3 million dollars.  C'mon man.

[Matt]

3 minutes ago, TURBO said:

ummmm, are you new to Brewers fandom?

They absolutely would and have lost players over an extra 3 million dollars.  C'mon man.

Like who? Who was worth the extra $3 million that only the Brewers would have gotten had they ponied the money up?

[boringname123]

4 minutes ago, TURBO said:

ummmm, are you new to Brewers fandom?

They absolutely would and have lost players over an extra 3 million dollars.  C'mon man.

I have nothing to back this up, but for me part of all this is that Counsell likely has a pretty good understanding of what the team books actually look like. I think he knows, certainly far better than any of us, what Mark A can afford to pay and is therefore unlikely to buy the cries of (relative) poverty. 

[nate82]

21 minutes ago, Matt said:

Imagine if the Rangers had let him go over a couple million. 

Probably would have been the same outcome season wise.  The playoffs are too much of a crap shoot so no idea beyond the season. 

[Matt]

The discussion gets dumber when you consider that the Brewers know that Counsell is actually good at his job. If there was some doubt about that I think you could better make an argument for moving on, but it's universally accepted that he's great. 

Like I said, if all CC wants to do is reset the managerial payscale, just do it and move on. 

[valpocrewsader]

Could the Brewers get creative and offer a manager + front office / assistant GM title & role? Or a deal that incorporates a small sliver of team ownership?

Just thinking out loud about possibilities that might be unique to the Counsell/Brewers/Milwaukee relationship. 

[BrewerFan]

On 10/30/2023 at 12:59 PM, Brewcrew82 said:

 And, yes, generally the goal of rebuilding is to build up your farm system to an elite level through a tear down of your major league roster and then tanking. However, per literally all of the major outlets, the Brewers already have an elite farm system, with each of their top 6 prospects at the upper levels of the minors. Thus, a rebuild=unnecessary. 

If the Brewers had traded Burnes, Woody and then Hader last year or the year before when their farm system was ranked in the mid to low 20s and then after two terrible years, they had the system they have RIGHT NOW, people would have considered that an exceptional rebuild. 

It seems very likely based on all the reporting that Counsell will be back. 

[BrewerFan]

On 10/31/2023 at 9:18 PM, Brewcrew82 said:

Mets have a huge $ advantage over the Brewers for sure, but the Brewers are arguably starting in a better position organizationally with their young talent and top 3 farm system.

I think if Attanasio matches his other offers, CC comes back. There's no guarantee he'd ever get another chance to manage in Milwaukee, and I wouldn't assume his reputation wouldn't suffer if he left for the Mets. 

This is where I disagree. Just in this thread I've seen several people state that the Brewers and Cleveland are in a better position. 

The Mets could EASILY go out and spend 100M this year(as in new salaries right now) in free agency.

Would anyone really be THAT shocked if they signed Ohtani, Yamamoto and Chapman(for example). Hell, they could add Snell on top of that and still not be as high as last year. 

That's a middle-of-the-order bat who plays an elite 3B, a LHed power hitter(in year 1) who would be the top FA if he only hits, and then a potential young ace from Japan who's considered the #2 FA on the market now.

They already have a lot of really good pieces, their payroll is pretty clean in '25 and they saved a lot last deadline.

 

Their primary target;
 

 

Based on TheAthletic.com projections(roughly)-

That's a 10/500 for Ohtani
7/210 for Yamamoto
6/125 for Chapman

With all the money they cleared? 
 

DH-Ohtani
1B – Pete Alonso
2B – Ronny Mauricio/McNeil
SS – Francisco Lindor
3B – Matt Chapman
CF-Brandon Nimmo|
LF-Starling Marte-Drew Gilbert probably gets some time
RF-D.J. Stewart

Sengi, Yamamoto, Quintana, Snall, Tidwell a trade
Diaz in the pen with Adam Ottavino, Brooks Raley

I'll assume some Aroldis Chapman type signings, and 

 

They also have a VERY good farm system with little Acuna, a top ~40 prospect, Drew Gilbert, another trade deadline acquisition who was elite in AA. Maurico who's MLB ready at SS/2B, Prada who's coming up behind Alvarez(one of the elite prospects in the game a year ago) and a VERY big trade chip. Williams, another SS who's likely to be on the block.

 

There is a LOT to work with before FA just by getting healthy and growing and then you consider their money and what they CAN do in FA and again, this is a team that won 100 games just a year ago(so the claim you can't spend your way to being a competitor is false). 

 

They could REALLY easily be back to a legitimate contender next year. You CAN buy yourself into contention....if you're willing to use it and Cohen is. 

And again, I touched very little on what's a very good, young farm system not so different from ours headed into last year with a LOT of young guys with high ceilings in A/AA who would be VERY attractive in a trade. 

 

They could absolutely end up beating ATL or Philly, especially in a series. 

[Brewcrew82]

2 minutes ago, BrewerFan said:

This is where I disagree. Just in this thread I've seen several people state that the Brewers and Cleveland are in a better position. 

The Mets could EASILY go out and spend 100M this year(as in new salaries right now) in free agency.

Would anyone really be THAT shocked if they signed Ohtani, Yamamoto and Chapman(for example). Hell, they could add Snell on top of that and still not be as high as last year. 

That's a middle-of-the-order bat who plays an elite 3B, a LHed power hitter(in year 1) who would be the top FA if he only hits, and then a potential young ace from Japan who's considered the #2 FA on the market now.

They already have a lot of really good pieces, their payroll is pretty clean in '25 and they saved a lot last deadline.

 

Their primary target;
 

 

Based on TheAthletic.com projections(roughly)-

That's a 10/500 for Ohtani
7/210 for Yamamoto
6/125 for Chapman

With all the money they cleared? 
 

DH-Ohtani
1B – Pete Alonso
2B – Ronny Mauricio/McNeil
SS – Francisco Lindor
3B – Matt Chapman
CF-Brandon Nimmo|
LF-Starling Marte-Drew Gilbert probably gets some time
RF-D.J. Stewart

Sengi, Yamamoto, Quintana, Snall, Tidwell a trade
Diaz in the pen with Adam Ottavino, Brooks Raley

I'll assume some Aroldis Chapman type signings, and 

 

They also have a VERY good farm system with little Acuna, a top ~40 prospect, Drew Gilbert, another trade deadline acquisition who was elite in AA. Maurico who's MLB ready at SS/2B, Prada who's coming up behind Alvarez(one of the elite prospects in the game a year ago) and a VERY big trade chip. Williams, another SS who's likely to be on the block.

 

There is a LOT to work with before FA just by getting healthy and growing and then you consider their money and what they CAN do in FA and again, this is a team that won 100 games just a year ago(so the claim you can't spend your way to being a competitor is false). 

 

They could REALLY easily be back to a legitimate contender next year. You CAN buy yourself into contention....if you're willing to use it and Cohen is. 

And again, I touched very little on what's a very good, young farm system not so different from ours headed into last year with a LOT of young guys with high ceilings in A/AA who would be VERY attractive in a trade. 

 

They could absolutely end up beating ATL or Philly, especially in a series. 

This is really long and hard to follow, but two things:

1) They already tried buying their way to a title like you're proposing, and it backfired on them. They're lucky they were able to get out of the Correa deal. They traded Scherzer and Verlander because they weren't planning on contending in 2024, and Cohen hired Stearns to build something more sustainable like the Dodgers. That will take time. 

2) Brewers are a consensus top 5/3 farm system. Mets are on the outside fringes of the top 10, if that. That difference matters.