Hader

[Brewcrew82]

Publicly confirming what we've all known for a while....

I get it, but it's a bad look imo. And it ended up costing us a couple of wins off the top of my head. At the same time, I don't think the Brewers come off clean here either the way they went about it. But it's mostly the system being screwed up. 

Hopefully DL Hall doesn't come across this clip if he ever does end up moving back to the pen.

[wallus]

He makes it seem like he didn't have a choice which is laughable.

[RightFieldCoder]

Imagine you're paid salary and not hourly. You put in a bunch of late nights to get projects done and help your co-workers.  During your yearly review (aka arbitration) your boss says he's not paying you to work late and gives you no extra money because of it.

Yes, he had the choice next year to continue working those extra hours. But I would be shocked if he made that choice.

 

[AdvantageSchneider]

1 hour ago, RightFieldCoder said:

Imagine you're paid salary and not hourly. You put in a bunch of late nights to get projects done and help your co-workers.  During your yearly review (aka arbitration) your boss says he's not paying you to work late and gives you no extra money because of it.

Yes, he had the choice next year to continue working those extra hours. But I would be shocked if he made that choice.

 

I don't think it's that cut and dried in that I assume innings pitched has some value in arbitration, just that saves are worth that much more, I assume.  

His first two full years in the league he had 81 and 75 innings pitched.  Since then he's never had more than 58.  

How much in baseball is there where a winning player does something that they don't get paid for? There used to be a lot more of it, going in hard to break up a double play.  Nobody gets paid to do that but that helped win games.  Sacrifice bunts.  Nobody does that anymore either but nobody got paid for doing that.  In the game today it's probably stuff like hitting the cut off man, taking the extra base, taking a pitch (Chuckie hacks on 2-0).  Winning players make those plays even though that doesn't increase their arby figure or their free agent contract.

That San Diego team had a boatload of talent and they didn't win jack squat.  Team leaders with attitudes like Hader, Machado and Tatis Jr might explain why they underachieved.

 

Grumpy old man rant over.

[Axman59]

I don't blame him at all. The system allows teams to abuse players who are playing year-to-year for their contracts. And the system is made to reward relief pitchers who earn saves over pitchers who throw two innings in the 7th and 8th to get the team out of a jam. Hader is no fool.

[homer]

The fact that they use saves as a metric is so archaic. 

[Fear The Chorizo]

26 minutes ago, homer said:

The fact that they use saves as a metric is so archaic. 

Yep, artifact of an era where it was a surprise when starters didn't go 7+IP

[SeaBass]

I have zero issue with his reasoning and choices. Brewers were dumb to even go to arbitration in the first place but then to kill their golden goose by literally downplaying how important him pitching multiple innings for them was. Hope the money they saved was worth it.

[Brock Beauchamp]

11 hours ago, Brewcrew82 said:

But it's mostly the system being screwed up. 

This is the key to it right here. I can't fault Hader in the slightest bit. The system is set up so that a guy who is making under a million bucks goes into an arb system that tells him helping the team isn't valuable. At that point, who can blame him for protecting his own career so that he has a better chance of getting a nine-digit payday?

Fix the arbitration system, it's absolute garbage.

[liveforoctober]

8 hours ago, AdvantageSchneider said:

I don't think it's that cut and dried in that I assume innings pitched has some value in arbitration, just that saves are worth that much more, I assume.  

His first two full years in the league he had 81 and 75 innings pitched.  Since then he's never had more than 58.  

How much in baseball is there where a winning player does something that they don't get paid for? There used to be a lot more of it, going in hard to break up a double play.  Nobody gets paid to do that but that helped win games.  Sacrifice bunts.  Nobody does that anymore either but nobody got paid for doing that.  In the game today it's probably stuff like hitting the cut off man, taking the extra base, taking a pitch (Chuckie hacks on 2-0).  Winning players make those plays even though that doesn't increase their arby figure or their free agent contract.

That San Diego team had a boatload of talent and they didn't win jack squat.  Team leaders with attitudes like Hader, Machado and Tatis Jr might explain why they underachieved.

 

Grumpy old man rant over.

I think we are a little hypocritical as fans though when we blame someone for "not being a team player" "not making winning plays" ... and then in the very next thread be arguing over whether Gary Sanchez deserves a roster spot because his OPS is percentage points lower than this next player..

[Brock Beauchamp]

8 hours ago, AdvantageSchneider said:

How much in baseball is there where a winning player does something that they don't get paid for? There used to be a lot more of it, going in hard to break up a double play.  Nobody gets paid to do that but that helped win games.  Sacrifice bunts.  Nobody does that anymore either but nobody got paid for doing that.  In the game today it's probably stuff like hitting the cut off man, taking the extra base, taking a pitch (Chuckie hacks on 2-0).  Winning players make those plays even though that doesn't increase their arby figure or their free agent contract.

Pretty much everything you listed here is valued higher and more accurately by teams than at any point in baseball history.

But you hit the nail on the head in a roundabout way. Teams value the stuff you listed *very highly* and track it down to minutia. They know EXACTLY how many runs a player generates by taking an extra base.

But when it comes time to sit down for arbitration and for the player to get paid, teams do not use a SINGLE BIT of that internal information and argue out of both sides of their mouth how the player is less valuable than he really is.

That's the problem here. How teams internally value a player and how they present their case to an arbitrator don't share a single thing in common.

[Austin Tatious]

I have always agreed with Hader on this point.  There are also times where it’s not the the ninth that’s as big of a deal as an earlier inning.   Suppose the ninth is the bottom part of the order but in the eighth, the middle of the order is up and maybe a runner or two gets on.   The hold doesn’t really capture that value and it’s arguably a more important event than retiring the bottom three in the ninth for a technical save.  

[kestrel79]

I agree with Hader, in the current system he did what he had to do to lock in that life and family altering pay day. Good for him.

Look at Jimmy Nelson, Woody with those shoulder injuries. That could happen to any pitcher at any time, why risk extra wear and tear on the arm when you are so close to that big payday.

But now that he has that big deal with the Astros I hope he's a little more on board with pitching wherever helps the team best...we'll see.

[monty57]

11 hours ago, RightFieldCoder said:

Imagine you're paid salary and not hourly. You put in a bunch of late nights to get projects done and help your co-workers.  During your yearly review (aka arbitration) your boss says he's not paying you to work late and gives you no extra money because of it.

Yes, he had the choice next year to continue working those extra hours. But I would be shocked if he made that choice.

 

I get your point, but imagine the boss is telling you that you're "only" getting a 596% raise from $687,600 last year to $4,100,000 next year, which is the raise Hader received in going into his first arby year. He then got a 63% raise from Milwaukee to $6,675,000 before being traded off to San Diego.

A reliever getting $4.1M in year one of arby is a lot. It doesn't appear that he was hurt financially by the way the Brewers were using him.

1 hour ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

But when it comes time to sit down for arbitration and for the player to get paid, teams do not use a SINGLE BIT of that internal information and argue out of both sides of their mouth how the player is less valuable than he really is.

That's the problem here. How teams internally value a player and how they present their case to an arbitrator don't share a single thing in common.

How much of the negative information do you think the agents bring up in the hearings? They're "arguing out of both sides of their mouth" as well.

Arby is a nasty procedure, which is why most players and teams try to avoid it, but neither side is innocent here. The team is going to argue for the team and the agent is going to argue for the player. 

 

 

I've said it in the past, but the Brewers had some whiny, thin-skinned players on their team. Specifically, Hader, Burnes and Lauer. I'll be happy to hear "Bull Durham" responses, and let the players keep their complaining in-house.

[markedman5]

Owners wanted to collectively bargain to get rid of arby…..players union said no…….so as much as they don’t like it( when they lose ) they don’t want to change it. 
 

I don’t really blame Hader…..but it is pretty rich that when he was traded he talked about how nice it was going to be to go to a team that was focused on winning it all and not just making the playoffs……when he knew full well he wasn’t really committed to winning it all but more so staying healthy so he could get a big contract.

Remember CC Sabathia? Traded to the Brewers….no history here……yet pitched on short rest even though he had a life altering pay day at stake. 
 

 

[Joseph Zarr]

Well, sheeesh. I certainly didn't need to reckon with the depth of this conversation this early on a Friday! I don't begrudge Hader one bit for anything. The system is broken if they are only quantifying value off of 'Saves'. How ridiculous and myopic. I'll always root for the players and the people. Period. I'm a fan of the Brewers, yes, and always will be but I'm not an ignoramus. I can psychologically (and, honestly, philosophically and spiritually) separate the two. 

[Brock Beauchamp]

52 minutes ago, monty57 said:

How much of the negative information do you think the agents bring up in the hearings? They're "arguing out of both sides of their mouth" as well.

Arby is a nasty procedure, which is why most players and teams try to avoid it, but neither side is innocent here. The team is going to argue for the team and the agent is going to argue for the player. 

Neither side is innocent. The player's union is currently the biggest hurdle in changing arbitration.

But both sides aren't equal, either. The team has most of the power in arbitration, as they control both the player and their usage.

[monty57]

36 minutes ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

Neither side is innocent. The player's union is currently the biggest hurdle in changing arbitration.

But both sides aren't equal, either. The team has most of the power in arbitration, as they control both the player and their usage.

Your argument to which I replied was:

"But you hit the nail on the head in a roundabout way. Teams value the stuff you listed *very highly* and track it down to minutia. They know EXACTLY how many runs a player generates by taking an extra base.

But when it comes time to sit down for arbitration and for the player to get paid, teams do not use a SINGLE BIT of that internal information and argue out of both sides of their mouth how the player is less valuable than he really is."

Ergo, the teams are somehow dishonest in that they know the good and bad about the player, but only argue the bad. I just said that the agent also knows the good and bad about the player, and only argues the good. If one side is disingenuous for their action, then the other side is as well.

Why does the team have power? Because of years of building their brand, the MLB has built a product that people will pay a lot of money to watch, and advertisers will pay billions to support. There are thousands of baseball games played around the world every day that no one pays to watch. He could've joined guys like league MVP Acuna and played in the Caribbean league this winter, where he would've made around $10,000-$20,000 per month to do the same thing he's being paid $19,000,000 to do in the MLB. There is nothing Hader could do that would pay him anywhere near what he can get by being one small cog in a wheel of the machine that is generating billions of dollars a year. 

Hader was a free agent this year. If the system is so bad, he could have played for any league in the world, but he chose to stay in the MLB. It must not be that bad.

[SeaBass]

3 hours ago, monty57 said:

I get your point, but imagine the boss is telling you that you're "only" getting a 596% raise from $687,600 last year to $4,100,000 next year, which is the raise Hader received in going into his first arby year.

Yet the Brewers still got an absolute steal of a deal in that 596% raise. Will Smith earned a 3 year $40M contract coming off an All Star season that was a nice season but came nowhere close to the dominance Josh Hader put up.

Instead if he blows out his arm it's sayonara, better be frugal with that $4 million you earned that was at least 90% below what your actual performance was worth. Everyone take a long look in Brandon Woodruff's direction.

So yeah, I'm right back to "Sorry boss, I'm not pitching more than 3 outs in closing situations from here on out."

1 hour ago, monty57 said:

Hader was a free agent this year. If the system is so bad, he could have played for any league in the world, but he chose to stay in the MLB. It must not be that bad.

What does this even mean? He still did exactly what he was paid to do. I guess it wasn't bad for MLB either, look what they paid him after all his "selfish behavior." Gimme a break.

[monty57]

21 minutes ago, SeaBass said:

Yet the Brewers still got an absolute steal of a deal in that 596% raise. Will Smith earned a 3 year $40M contract coming off an All Star season that was a nice season but came nowhere close to the dominance Josh Hader put up.

Instead if he blows out his arm it's sayonara, better be frugal with that $4 million you earned that was at least 90% below what your actual performance was worth. Everyone take a long look in Brandon Woodruff's direction.

So yeah, I'm right back to "Sorry boss, I'm not pitching more than 3 outs in closing situations from here on out."

What does this even mean? He still did exactly what he was paid to do. I guess it wasn't bad for MLB either, look what they paid him after all his "selfish behavior." Gimme a break.

I had a longer answer, but it's not worth arguing. 

You'd choose to be a "me first" guy who says "sorry boss, I'm not doing the work." I've worked with people with that attitude, and I'd be happy if I never had to do it again, because I have to end up picking up their slack while they're off blaming the system.

Give me the guys who see the work and bust their butts to get it done.

[KeithStone53151]

4 hours ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

Neither side is innocent. The player's union is currently the biggest hurdle in changing arbitration.

But both sides aren't equal, either. The team has most of the power in arbitration, as they control both the player and their usage.

The concept of arbitration is fine, imagine if the people making the decisions had the same intimate understanding of player valuation that the teams have...instead of relying on saves and rbi's and other literally irrelevant metrics to a player's true value. Hader is clearly valued as one of the very best relievers in baseball currently, he'd have significantly more value if he was able to give 90 innings of similar caliber dominance per year instead of 60 but recorded maybe a 25 saves instead of close to 40. Bottom line, the real problem is the decision makers being complete boneheads...that's the correction that needs to happen. Most of the people on this forum are probably better suited to make a call on a players value than anyone who's including saves and rbi's in their consideration for player valuation.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

How is this a bad look? He makes complete sense.

[Brock Beauchamp]

8 minutes ago, KeithStone53151 said:

The concept of arbitration is fine, imagine if the people making the decisions had the same intimate understanding of player valuation that the teams have...instead of relying on saves and rbi's and other literally irrelevant metrics to a player's true value. Hader is clearly valued as one of the very best relievers in baseball currently, he'd have significantly more value if he was able to give 90 innings of similar caliber dominance per year instead of 60 but recorded maybe a 25 saves instead of close to 40. Bottom line, the real problem is the decision makers being complete boneheads...that's the correction that needs to happen. Most of the people on this forum are probably better suited to make a call on a players value than anyone who's including saves and rbi's in their consideration for player valuation.

Absolutely. Arbitration doesn’t have to be bad but baseball’s current arb system is very bad. 

[TURBO]

I can't believe we are still on the Hader subject. 

Dude has been gone a year and a half.

He's gone...

[Brewcrew82]

17 minutes ago, TURBO said:

I can't believe we are still on the Hader subject. 

Dude has been gone a year and a half.

He's gone...

It’s a Brewers discussion forum, and this clip came out yesterday. First time he publicly acknowledged why he refused to pitch outside of the 9th, and he blamed the Brewers.