2025-26 Milwaukee Bucks / NBA Thread

[jay87shot]

36 minutes ago, nate82 said:

Turner doesn’t have that much value.  At best you are getting a second round pick.  No way you are getting a first round pick let alone two.  

 

I don’t see the Warriors giving up Hield in a trade and if they do it won’t be for KPJ.  At that point it wouldn’t be worth it for the Bucks.  

Turner is still an athletic big who can shoot and and protect the rim. Does he have as much value as early in the year, no. However I think if he where available we would definitely get some value, there are a ton of contenders that need a big and not much in the way of quality available unless Zubic or Jaren Jackson are made available, which I doubt. 2 picks from the Celtic that are likely after 25 isn't a huge price for a big Turners quality. I think the issue would be long term salary for Boston since they are a good amount over the cap. However the Celtic would be an easy favorite in the east for years with Pritchard, White, Brown, Tatum, and Turner.

Buddy Heild is averaging 17 minutes a game and shooting 34% from 3. He is a ghost of the player he once was. I don't think the Warriors would hesitate to drop him, especially being under contract for 2 more years. The question there is if the Warriors feel KPJ would be the right type of player to play along side Curry and would be enough of a return for Kuminga especially since KPJ will likely opt out and be a FA next year. I doubt anyone gives up a super impressive package for Kuminga but there should be plenty of teams interested since Kuminga is young and has a good upside still.

[GAME05]

2 hours ago, jay87shot said:

He is a ghost of the player he once was.

Well that makes him exactly the sort of player the Bucks will trade their first-rounder for!

 

[Joseph Zarr]

Well I for One am extremely thankful this current Bucks Brain Trust is going to handle dealing the best asset this franchise has known in over 50 years in his late Prime. What could possibly go wrong?

[nate82]

2 minutes ago, Joseph Zarr said:

Well I for One am extremely thankful this current Bucks Brain Trust is going to handle dealing the best asset this franchise has known in over 50 years in his late Prime. Wbat could possibly go wrong?

[Joseph Zarr]

I have said numerous times: Giannis deserves better. He has been an absolute loyal dawg for the Bucks and the city of Milwaukee. I am happy for him to have the chance to make good on the rest of his career. BUT, I just have this nagging cognitive dissonance that he and Khris will likely both be traded within a calendar year while both John Horst and Doctor Glenn Rivers will remain in the Bucks org. How is that even a version of reality? 😅

[Joseph Zarr]

Anywho:

 

[patrickgpe]

57 minutes ago, Joseph Zarr said:

I have said numerous times: Giannis deserves better. He has been an absolute loyal dawg for the Bucks and the city of Milwaukee. I am happy for him to have the chance to make good on the rest of his career. BUT, I just have this nagging cognitive dissonance that he and Khris will likely both be traded within a calendar year while both John Horst and Doctor Glenn Rivers will remain in the Bucks org. How is that even a version of reality? 😅

The bucks are in the position they are because they have done everything possible to appease Giannis. They don't have full control of a first rd pick until 2031. How many franchises would stretch 113 million against the cap for 5 years to get Giannis a new #2 option? Giannis has been very loyal and I agree he deserves to win, but that doesn't mean that the bucks aren't where they are because of him. The team has no depth or picks because they have acquired large salaries to keep him happy. Also it must be noted that he been injured almost every playoff which is  large reason they only have 1 championship. I understand once he is gone, its back to mid 90's and the bucks become completely insignificant, but that doesn't mean moving on isn't the right move.

Its no different that Peralta, it sucks but its best for the long term future of the team. 

[nate82]

To be honest this should have been done before this season started.  

[Joseph Zarr]

26 minutes ago, nate82 said:

To be honest this should have been done before this season started.  

I don't agree with this take. If you recall, before the season, the narrative touted by Horst and, heck Giannis, was they were young multiple and athletic. They believed they would surprise - and they did in brief moments. I would opine, to be honest, the Bucks would be best suited to trade Him after the season. Fire Horst. Fire Doc. New Front Office staff. New HC. Then trade him before the draft getting the best package you can get and punt on this season. That's generally how I see it. AND, of course, I could absolutely be wrong. 

[Joseph Zarr]

49 minutes ago, patrickgpe said:

The bucks are in the position they are because they have done everything possible to appease Giannis. They don't have full control of a first rd pick until 2031. How many franchises would stretch 113 million against the cap for 5 years to get Giannis a new #2 option? Giannis has been very loyal and I agree he deserves to win, but that doesn't mean that the bucks aren't where they are because of him. The team has no depth or picks because they have acquired large salaries to keep him happy. Also it must be noted that he been injured almost every playoff which is  large reason they only have 1 championship. I understand once he is gone, its back to mid 90's and the bucks become completely insignificant, but that doesn't mean moving on isn't the right move.

Its no different that Peralta, it sucks but its best for the long term future of the team. 

This is true. Yes. AND, I think it's very fair to say in trying to do so they've made far too many mistakes. The draft snafus well before they started trading draft picks to remain competitive were fairly egregious and they were multiple. The Crowder trade. Letting Jrue get to Boston in the manner that deal was crafted. I don't begrudge the Dame attempt itself it was very well worth it even though that also suffered injuries and a decline in play and their inability to thrive together. I don't begrudge stretching Dame either. The coaching carousel and the hires post-Bud are laughable at best and certainly don't put the organization in a good light. I agree it's time to move on. However, I think where we differ is: the Bucks attempts to appease Giannis have mostly been a quagmire. I think it's just plain very fair to say they are a poorly run organization. I am grateful we all experienced the Bud years. I will look back fondly on those seasons. That's essentially where I stop being grateful as a fan with no skin in the game. At the end of the day <hat tip Giannis-ism>, it's just sports. It is what it is. I'm certainly not going to lose any sleep over any of this. 

[patrickgpe]

42 minutes ago, nate82 said:

To be honest this should have been done before this season started.  

+ they should have not cut and stretched Lillard  and signed Turner. 

[jay87shot]

I don't mind them waiting to trade Giannis until the offseason if they fire Horst and Doc. I am super worried that Horst is going to trade Giannis for OG and Bridges and get no young assets. However this is Giannis, if Rudy Gobert is worth 4 1st round picks Giannis should get 2 young quality players and expiring contract and a handful of picks.

Offers I like

Heat- Herro, Ware, Rozier, 2030 and 32 pick swaps  (could add 3rd team to take Herro and get another young piece and more picks)     I like Ware's upside a bunch and would probably prefer to trade Herro over keeping him as jumpstarting a rebuild.

Spurs- Castle and/or Harper, Keldon Johnson, Devin Vassell, multiple picks  (maybe Vassel to 3rd team for more picks)    Probably the leader in the clubhouse if they would cough up both young guys (I doubt they would).

OKC- Hartenstein, Wallace, Topic, Joe and like 6 1st (they have 11 tradable 1st).  I doubt the Thunder would mess up there chemistry but have a treasure trove.

Houston- Sengun, Shepherd, Finney Smith and picks     I think Sengun could be the best young player we could get back and make sense. This could include FVV and some of there other young players like Smith and Eason instead of Sengun.

Hawks- Porzingis, Ricasher, Okongwo and picks       I doubt the Hawks would move Jalen Johnson and a bunch of other pieces so my logical package leaves him out (would love Johnson, young pieces and picks obviously) The hawks do have the best collection of high end draft picks.

Mavs- Cooper Flagg and Anthony Davis (picks)       This is a joke because they fired Harrison, but if they repeat a Luka deal ok then.

Blazers- Avidji, Scoot, Grant and our picks back    I don't think Portland would be all in with the rest of the team being iffy but Avidji and Scoot would be solid young players and our picks back would be nice.

[SeaBass]

Trading Giannis and blowing things up is the only way I get interested in this team again. I've been checked out since late last season. Moving on is the only way I see things getting better. Love Giannis and enjoyed like hell his rise to superstardom and the championship season but it's been all downhill since they traded Holiday and fired Bud.

I feel like I've said this before but the NBA changing its rules on how teams are allowed to manage their roster came at the exact moment that was worst for the Bucks franchise. The teams like Miami, Cleveland and Golden State had an advantage building their mini-dynasties that the Bucks didn't. It kinda sucks even though I do think it's for the greater good.

[nate82]

2 hours ago, Joseph Zarr said:

I don't agree with this take. If you recall, before the season, the narrative touted by Horst and, heck Giannis, was they were young multiple and athletic. They believed they would surprise - and they did in brief moments. I would opine, to be honest, the Bucks would be best suited to trade Him after the season. Fire Horst. Fire Doc. New Front Office staff. New HC. Then trade him before the draft getting the best package you can get and punt on this season. That's generally how I see it. AND, of course, I could absolutely be wrong. 

I think all of that is irrelevant on what they thought they had.  The team was still missing a #2 scorer and maybe even a #3.  I don’t include Turner as a good #3 regardless of what the numbers say.  The team has a bunch of 4th option players in the roster with a #1 in Giannis.

This has never worked in the NBA.  Jordan didn’t start winning championships until he got his #2 in Pippen.  Same with Giannis when Middleton became that solid #2 scorer.  Unfortunately Middleton’s health gave out on him.

This past offseason was the time to start the rebuild.  Cut the roster to its bones remove the GM.  Let Doc stay or retire his choice.  I think he would have retired if Giannis wasn’t playing for the Bucks to start the season.

This team had too many holes and signing Turner didn’t fix any of them.

[CheezWizHed]

22 hours ago, nate82 said:

To be honest this should have been done before this season started.  

If we are using the benefit of hindsight, we should've traded him in 2022... 

I'm guessing that no GM wants to cut the roster to the bones right now... because we have no assets to rebuild for the next 4 years.  A losing GM isn't going to last that long. 

I do find it interesting how hard it has been to find players that fit with Giannis well.  Lillard didn't.  Turner doesn't.  Is Giannis the next Russell Westbrook or James Harden (even Lillard himself might fit in this group)?

[sveumrules]

11 minutes ago, CheezWizHed said:

I do find it interesting how hard it has been to find players that fit with Giannis well.  Lillard didn't.  Turner doesn't.  Is Giannis the next Russell Westbrook or James Harden (even Lillard himself might fit in this group)?

In 2023-24 Lillard and Giannis were +10.0 points per 100 possessions on the floor together. When they were on the floor with Middleton it jumped up to +17.0 points per 100 possessions. But Giannis got hurt right before the playoffs.

In 2024-25 after Middleton's body finally betrayed him for good, while Lillard and Giannis dealt with their own health issues missing 39 combined games, they dropped to +4.3 points per 100 possessions on the floor together.

In limited minutes this season (again on account of injury) Giannis and Turner have been +9.1 points per 100 possessions on the floor together. Those two plus AJG, KPJ and Rollins are +9.8 so far this year as the five on the floor.

The issues have been far more health related than fit related post-Championship.

[nate82]

1 hour ago, CheezWizHed said:

If we are using the benefit of hindsight, we should've traded him in 2022... 

Sure but I was on board with trading Giannis this past offseason.  

 

1 hour ago, CheezWizHed said:

I'm guessing that no GM wants to cut the roster to the bones right now... because we have no assets to rebuild for the next 4 years.  A losing GM isn't going to last that long. 

Horst obviously wouldn’t but if you brought in a new GM and told them you want to rebuild I think they would be ok with that.  The goal would be to rebuild and get as many assets as you can. 

[CheezWizHed]

4 hours ago, sveumrules said:

In 2023-24 Lillard and Giannis were +10.0 points per 100 possessions on the floor together. When they were on the floor with Middleton it jumped up to +17.0 points per 100 possessions. But Giannis got hurt right before the playoffs.

In 2024-25 after Middleton's body finally betrayed him for good, while Lillard and Giannis dealt with their own health issues missing 39 combined games, they dropped to +4.3 points per 100 possessions on the floor together.

In limited minutes this season (again on account of injury) Giannis and Turner have been +9.1 points per 100 possessions on the floor together. Those two plus AJG, KPJ and Rollins are +9.8 so far this year as the five on the floor.

The issues have been far more health related than fit related post-Championship.

What do those numbers compare to?  To an NBA average?  Buck's Average?  To the average without them in the lineup? 

How do those +X numbers compare to other star pairs in the NBA? If Giannis+Lillard are +10.0, but Tatum and Brown are +15.0 (made it up)...

They are all great players and should provide positive value, but that number in a vacuum doesn't mean much. 

Just by using my eyeballs, Giannis and Lillard was a very uncomfortable offense to watch.  It is also clear that Turner plays very differently when Giannis is injured.  

[LouisEly]

The NBA is doing what it is designed to do - rotate teams at the top.  It's really hard to win more than one finals.  For as stacked as the Celtics and Lakers have been the last decade, they have also only won one Championship each during that time.  Celtics were in the conference finals six times before they broke through and won the title in 2024.

The cap, the aprons, the draft... it's all designed to rotate who is at the top.  You have to get really lucky in the draft on multiple picks and/or have someone make an absolutely stupid trade with you (OKC) to win multiple championships (and OKC hasn't completed that yet).

[sveumrules]

17 hours ago, CheezWizHed said:

What do those numbers compare to?  To an NBA average?  Buck's Average?  To the average without them in the lineup? 

How do those +X numbers compare to other star pairs in the NBA? If Giannis+Lillard are +10.0, but Tatum and Brown are +15.0 (made it up)...

They are all great players and should provide positive value, but that number in a vacuum doesn't mean much. 

Just by using my eyeballs, Giannis and Lillard was a very uncomfortable offense to watch.  It is also clear that Turner plays very differently when Giannis is injured.  

The lineup numbers use their opponents' performance during those same minutes on the floor as the baseline. 

Just for a range of comparison here are the primary lineups from some recent Bucks teams and NBA Champions during the Giannis Era. I split out regular season and postseason for some of the teams because they had impactful personnel changes... 

2025-26 Bucks (+9.8 pts/100)
KPJ | Rollins | AJG | Giannis | Turner
[not many minutes together on account of injuries]

2024-25 OKC (+14.4 pts/100)
SGA | Williams | Dort | Chet | Hartenstein 

2023-24 BOS (+11.3 pts/100)
Holiday | White | Brown | Tatum | Porzingis

2023-24 Bucks (+15.6 pts/100)
Lillard | Beasley | Khris | Giannis | Brook
[2nd best reg season lineup in the sample undone by injuries and coaching turmoil]

2022-23 DEN (+12.6 pts/100)
Murray | KCP | MPJ | Gordon | Jokic

2022-23 Bucks (+12.0 pts/100)
Jrue | Grayson | Khris | Giannis | Brook
[Brook's return gives the Bucks a boost]

2021-22 GSW (+7.2 pts/100) REG SEA
Curry | Poole | Wiggins | Green | Looney

2021-22 GSW (+19.8 pts/100) POSTSEA
Curry | Klay | Wiggins | Green | Looney

2021-22 Bucks (+9.4 pts/100)
Jrue | Grayson | Khris | Giannis | Portis
[Brook back surgery so Bobby at the 5]

2020-21 Bucks (+8.2 pts/100) REG SEA
Jrue | DDV | Khris | Giannis | Brook

2020-21 Bucks (+11.2 pts/100) POSTSEA
Jrue | Khris | PJT | Giannis | Brook

2020-21 Bucks (+18.0 pts/100) POSTSEA
Jrue | Patty C | Khris | PJT | Giannis
[100 glorious minutes of Giannis at the 5]

2019-20 LAL (+12.2 pts/100) REG SEA
Bradley | Green | LBJ | Davis | Javale

2019-20 LAL (+18.2 pts/100) POSTSEA
LBJ | KCP | Green | Davis | Javale

2019-20 Bucks (+18.8 pts/100)
Bledsoe | Wes | Khris | Giannis | Brook
[best reg season lineup in sample got COVID'ed and Blesoe'd]

2018-19 TOR (+10.7 pts/100)
Lowry | Green | Kawhi | Siakam | Ibaka

2018-19 Bucks (+6.0 pts/100)
Bledsoe | Brogdon | Khris | Giannis | Brook
[Giannis first MVP season with Bud on scene]

2017-18 GSW (+9.2 pts/100) REG SEA
Curry | Klay | Durant | Green | Pachulia

2017-18 GSW (+23.0 pts/100) POSTSEA
Curry | Klay | Iguodala | Durant | Green

[OldSchoolSnapper]

On 1/28/2026 at 11:26 AM, Joseph Zarr said:

I have said numerous times: Giannis deserves better. He has been an absolute loyal dawg for the Bucks and the city of Milwaukee. I am happy for him to have the chance to make good on the rest of his career. BUT, I just have this nagging cognitive dissonance that he and Khris will likely both be traded within a calendar year while both John Horst and Doctor Glenn Rivers will remain in the Bucks org. How is that even a version of reality? 😅

I don't know. I kind of think this is a situation where really no one is to blame, chances were taken to appease the star, chances that usually made sense, and they happened to not work out. 

I go down the line and see a lot of revisionist history. People did want Bud fired. They also wanted Griffin fired. They wanted Dame. They wanted Turner.

The only thing I think that would have changed the trajectory of things was retooling the roster immediately after the championship when Middleton had value but was still sort of an aging asset. Of course, that sets Giannis on fire, but he and Lopez should have been dealt then, or at the latest, the following year. Portis was a dumb signing too. The cornerstones should have been Jrue and Giannis, and they needed to get younger everywhere else. That's not a realistic criticism though.

[Joseph Zarr]

49 minutes ago, OldSchoolSnapper said:

I don't know. I kind of think this is a situation where really no one is to blame, chances were taken to appease the star, chances that usually made sense, and they happened to not work out. 

I go down the line and see a lot of revisionist history. People did want Bud fired. They also wanted Griffin fired. They wanted Dame. They wanted Turner.

The only thing I think that would have changed the trajectory of things was retooling the roster immediately after the championship when Middleton had value but was still sort of an aging asset. Of course, that sets Giannis on fire, but he and Lopez should have been dealt then, or at the latest, the following year. Portis was a dumb signing too. The cornerstones should have been Jrue and Giannis, and they needed to get younger everywhere else. That's not a realistic criticism though.

Well, I don't think moving on from Bud was the incorrect decision - it certainly seemed as tho he had lost the team and he had lost his edge - clearly showcased in the failed opportunity at Phoenix. Despite being 30-13 at the time of the Griffin firing, there were many whispers of his dysfunction outside the coaching duties - there were rumored problems beyond the court and he has since not found a job in the NBA.

Which brings me to: Doctor Glenn Rivers.

Yeah. Can not happen. Lambasted and laughed at immediately across the greater NBA fandom. Anyone who follows NBA basketball knew what an unbelievably silly decision this was. The Bucks performance has only gotten predictably worse. 

[homer]

Bucks must be in tank mode. No way any respectable team would keep Doc on at this point.

[Jopal78]

How many luxury suites are they going to lease when Giannis isn’t there an a bunch of nobody’s are getting their lunch fed to them nightly as the team drifts rudderlessly searching for their next superstar?

It’s too bad they mortgaged the future to keep him around and are now looking to trade him anyways, and a Giannis trade immediately puts Milwaukee back into irrelevance. . 

[Joseph Zarr]

3 hours ago, Jopal78 said:

How many luxury suites are they going to lease when Giannis isn’t there an a bunch of nobody’s are getting their lunch fed to them nightly as the team drifts rudderlessly searching for their next superstar?

It’s too bad they mortgaged the future to keep him around and are now looking to trade him anyways, and a Giannis trade immediately puts Milwaukee back into irrelevance. . 

I think what we're learning as this situation develops is they aren't shopping Giannis but they are actually listening on Giannis trade proposals for the first time. As of yesterday, it was reported they were asking for the moon when listening and engaging - which is what they should be doing, imho. Jim O brought some levity (who is actually the only person covering the Bucks who is actually questioning why Doc Rivers is still coaching this team) when he mentioned there is very much still the possibility they are angling to extend and keep Giannis through the trade deadline with hopes of extending him with a SuperMax. Is this certain? Absolutely not but it feels quite a bit more fluid than the first Shams tweet suggested (entirely unsurprising). They may still trade him, sure. But it also seems just as likely they keep him and rearrange some version of deck chairs or takenon unwanted conteacts to father more draft capital - see today's news linked to Cam Thomas and D'Angelo Russell for example? The only thing that makes sense in this iteration is they actually realize how incredibly talented and deep this upcoming draft is and they see Doc as an asset to help them get the best pick they possibly can. Who knows. It's the Bucks afterall.