How Good Is Your Ninth Best Player Supposed to be Anyway?? (AKA the Joey Ortiz Thread)

[sveumrules]

Joey Ortiz was the Brewers worst regular player last year, with his 1.4 WAR ranking 9th on the team. He played enough to barely qualify for the batting title (506 PA), hit really bad (his 67 wRC+ was 266th of 277 players with at least 300 PA), and fielded really well (his +13.9 DEF was 17th of those same 277 players). Joey's +2.5 BsR (46th) was also enough to sneak him just inside the back end of the Top 50 on the bases in a run of consecutive familiar names...Brice Turang (+2.6), Tyrone Taylor (+2.5), Sal Frelick (+2.5), Caleb Durbin (+2.3).

But I was curious, how good is your ninth best player supposed to be anyway? So I did some clicking around and below have transcribed all thirty of the ninth best players on every team in MLB for 2025. In parentheses after each team I have included where Oritz's 1.4 WAR would have placed him on that particular team's leaderboard. I also bolded the other playoff teams for reference. Here goes...

30. Owen Miller COL (2nd)
17 PA | 28 wRC+ | +0.9 DEF | 0.0 WAR
[yes, this was the Rockies 9th best player this year]

29. Christian Moore LAA (4th)
184 PA | 82 wRC+ | -0.7 DEF | 0.2 WAR
[what's that you say, an Angels prospect rushed to the show after only 410 PA in the minors?]

28. Dylan Crews WAS (3rd)
322 PA | 77 wRC+ | -1.6 DEF | 0.2 WAR
[#2 overall pick and consensus Top Ten prospect Dylan Crews]

27. Tommy Pham PIT (4th)
449 PA | 94 wRC+ | -6.3 DEF | 0.2 WAR
[noted fantasy football commish]

26. Austin Slater CHW (3rd)
135 PA | 100 wRC+ | -1.3 DEF | 0.3 WAR
[professional backup / shortside platoon OF with between 104 PA and 325 PA each of the last nine seasons]

25. Freddy Fermin KCR (4th)
208 PA | 79 wRC+ | +3.5 DEF | 0.4 WAR
[backup backstop]

24. Brayan Rocchio CLE (4th)
383 PA | 77 wRC+ | +1.6 DEF | 0.4 WAR
[got nine different Top 100 rankings between #47 and #98 before graduating]

23. Christian Koss SFG (5th)
191 PA | 91 wRC+ | -0.6 DEF | 0.5 WAR
[had to look this guy up, 12th round minor league grinder 27 year old rookie]

22. Johnny DeLuca TBR (6th)
59 PA | 124 wRC+ | +0.4 DEF | 0.6 WAR
[part of the Glasnow to Dodgers deal]

21. Michael Helman TEX (6th)
110 PA | 106 wRC+ | +0.2 DEF | 0.6 WAR
[second guy I had to look up, not an heir to the mayonnaise empire from what I can tell]

20. Max Schuemann ATH (7th)
213 PA | 62 wRC+ | +7.4 DEF | 0.6 WAR
[only heard of this guy when he was named a GG finalist this year]

19. Bryce Johnson SDP (6th)
84 PA | 135 wRC+ | -0.2 DEF | 0.7 WAR
[thought he smoked us this year, but only got two singles in 12 AB, memory is faulty]

18. Miguel Andujar CIN (3rd)
110 PA | 159 wRC+ | -2.7 DEF | 0.7 WAR
[small sample warrior]

17. James McCann ARI (6th)
137 PA | 110 wRC+ | +1.3 DEF | 0.7 WAR
[another backup backstop]

16. Eugenio Suarez SEA (8th)
220 PA | 91 wRC+ | +1.3 DEF | 0.7 WAR
[trade deadline prize]

15. Javier Sanoja MIA (5th)
342 PA | 86 wRC+ | +1.7 DEF | 0.7 WAR
[only heard of this guy when he won utility GG this year]

14. Hyesong Kim LAD (8th)
170 PA | 95 wRC+ | +1.6 DEF | 0.8 WAR
[KBO superstar turned Dodgers backup utility guy]

13. Tyrone Taylor NYM (9th)
341 PA | 70 wRC+ | +6.0 DEF | 0.8 WAR
[always good to see an old friend again]

12. Lars Nootbar STL (8th)
583 PA | 96 wRC+ | -7.0 DEF | 0.8 WAR
[still trying to live up to the name]

11. Ramon Urias BAL (5th)
290 PA | 91 wRC+ | +3.2 DEF | 0.9 WAR
[fun Orioles side note, Ortiz had more WAR in 2025 than his more ballyhooed former organization mates Jackson Holliday (1.2), Adley Rutschman (1.2), Colton Cowser (0.6) and Coby Mayo (0.2)]

10. Royce Lewis MIN (6th)
403 PA | 85 wRC+ | +2.0 DEF | 1.0 WAR
[#1 overall pick with fifteen different Top 100 rankings including four Top Tens]

09. Cam Smith HOU (8th)
493 PA | 90 wRC+ | -2.9 DEF | 1.0 WAR
[ranked between #20 and #59 before being dealt for Kyle Tucker]

08. Anthony Volpe NYY (8th)
596 PA | 83 wRC+ | +0.3 DEF | 1.0 WAR
[$300M payroll and they've got a SS even worse than us, nevermind his prospect rankings]

07. Harrison Bader PHI (9th)
194 PA | 129 wRC+ | -0.1 DEF | 1.2 WAR
[probably the 3rd best FA OF this offseason after Tucker and Bellinger]

06. Marcell Ozuna ATL (6th)
592 PA | 114 wRC+ | -14.8 DEF | 1.2 WAR
[free agent DH likely destined for a one year deal]

05. Javier Baez DET (9th)
437 PA | 86 wRC+ | +4.7 DEF | 1.4 WAR
[once tagged a guy out at home plate from center field, look it up, it's true]

04. Joey Ortiz MIL (9th)
506 PA | 67 wRC+ | +13.9 DEF | 1.4 WAR
[the guy this post is about]

03. Romy Gonzalez BOS (10th)
341 PA | 123 wRC+ | -4.7 DEF | 1.5 WAR
[famously attended a high school reunion with Michelle]

02. Matt Shaw CHC (10th)
437 PA | 93 wRC+ | +1.6 DEF | 1.5 WAR
[kinda like if Joey hit better but couldn't play SS]

01. Nathan Lukes TOR (11th)
438 PA | 103 wRC+ | +2.3 DEF | 1.8 WAR
[there you have it, Nathan Lukes (who exceeded 100 PA in a season for the first time at age 30) was thee very bestest ninth best player on his team in all of MLB for 2025]

Just to do some final accounting at the end if anyone managed to make it this far...

- the thirty ninth best players on their teams in 2025 totaled 23.8 WAR for an average of around 0.8 WAR each. 

- in 2025, Joey Ortiz's 1.4 WAR would have ranked 2nd on one team, 3rd on three teams, 4th on four teams, 5th on three teams, 6th on six teams, 7th on one team, 8th on five teams, 9th on four teams, 10th on two teams and 11th on one team. Put it all together and he would be something like the 6th or 7th best player on an average team that doesn't have the depth of the Brewers and a handful of other clubs. 

Ultimately, having someone like Joey Ortiz as your 9th (or even 8th) best player is a small luxury. I'd love to bring in an upgrade to the infield (whether that is at SS or at 2B/3B sliding Turang to SS) but between scant options likely to be available this winter, the cost to acquire them, and the pending arrival of guys like Pratt & Made, it wouldn't surprise me if the Brewers roll with what they've got and hope that Joey can bounce back closer to average with the bat next year.

 

[AKCheesehead]

Sveum I appreciate all this digging you have done.  Terrific work.  

I really do believe that Joey can bounce back next year provided that he's good physically.  I believe that 2025 is his floor, and I believe his peak potential well exceeds his offensive output of 2024. 

[RobertCrawley]

45 minutes ago, sveumrules said:

Joey Ortiz was the Brewers worst regular player last year, with his 1.4 WAR ranking 9th on the team. He played enough to barely qualify for the batting title (506 PA), hit really bad (his 67 wRC+ was 266th of 277 players with at least 300 PA), and fielded really well (his +13.9 DEF was 17th of those same 277 players). Joey's +2.5 BsR (46th) was also enough to sneak him just inside the back end of the Top 50 on the bases in a run of consecutive familiar names...Brice Turang (+2.6), Tyrone Taylor (+2.5), Sal Frelick (+2.5), Caleb Durbin (+2.3).

But I was curious, how good is your ninth best player supposed to be anyway? So I did some clicking around and below have transcribed all thirty of the ninth best players on every team in MLB for 2025. In parentheses after each team I have included where Oritz's 1.4 WAR would have placed him on that particular team's leaderboard. I also bolded the other playoff teams for reference. Here goes...

30. Owen Miller COL (2nd)
17 PA | 28 wRC+ | +0.9 DEF | 0.0 WAR
[yes, this was the Rockies 9th best player this year]

29. Christian Moore LAA (4th)
184 PA | 82 wRC+ | -0.7 DEF | 0.2 WAR
[what's that you say, an Angels prospect rushed to the show after only 410 PA in the minors?]

28. Dylan Crews WAS (3rd)
322 PA | 77 wRC+ | -1.6 DEF | 0.2 WAR
[#2 overall pick and consensus Top Ten prospect Dylan Crews]

27. Tommy Pham PIT (4th)
449 PA | 94 wRC+ | -6.3 DEF | 0.2 WAR
[noted fantasy football commish]

26. Austin Slater CHW (3rd)
135 PA | 100 wRC+ | -1.3 DEF | 0.3 WAR
[professional backup / shortside platoon OF with between 104 PA and 325 PA each of the last nine seasons]

25. Freddy Fermin KCR (4th)
208 PA | 79 wRC+ | +3.5 DEF | 0.4 WAR
[backup backstop]

24. Brayan Rocchio CLE (4th)
383 PA | 77 wRC+ | +1.6 DEF | 0.4 WAR
[got nine different Top 100 rankings between #47 and #98 before graduating]

23. Christian Koss SFG (5th)
191 PA | 91 wRC+ | -0.6 DEF | 0.5 WAR
[had to look this guy up, 12th round minor league grinder 27 year old rookie]

22. Johnny DeLuca TBR (6th)
59 PA | 124 wRC+ | +0.4 DEF | 0.6 WAR
[part of the Glasnow to Dodgers deal]

21. Michael Helman TEX (6th)
110 PA | 106 wRC+ | +0.2 DEF | 0.6 WAR
[second guy I had to look up, not an heir to the mayonnaise empire from what I can tell]

20. Max Schuemann ATH (7th)
213 PA | 62 wRC+ | +7.4 DEF | 0.6 WAR
[only heard of this guy when he was named a GG finalist this year]

19. Bryce Johnson SDP (6th)
84 PA | 135 wRC+ | -0.2 DEF | 0.7 WAR
[thought he smoked us this year, but only got two singles in 12 AB, memory is faulty]

18. Miguel Andujar CIN (3rd)
110 PA | 159 wRC+ | -2.7 DEF | 0.7 WAR
[small sample warrior]

17. James McCann ARI (6th)
137 PA | 110 wRC+ | +1.3 DEF | 0.7 WAR
[another backup backstop]

16. Eugenio Suarez SEA (8th)
220 PA | 91 wRC+ | +1.3 DEF | 0.7 WAR
[trade deadline prize]

15. Javier Sanoja MIA (5th)
342 PA | 86 wRC+ | +1.7 DEF | 0.7 WAR
[only heard of this guy when he won utility GG this year]

14. Hyesong Kim LAD (8th)
170 PA | 95 wRC+ | +1.6 DEF | 0.8 WAR
[KBO superstar turned Dodgers backup utility guy]

13. Tyrone Taylor NYM (9th)
341 PA | 70 wRC+ | +6.0 DEF | 0.8 WAR
[always good to see an old friend again]

12. Lars Nootbar STL (8th)
583 PA | 96 wRC+ | -7.0 DEF | 0.8 WAR
[still trying to live up to the name]

11. Ramon Urias BAL (5th)
290 PA | 91 wRC+ | +3.2 DEF | 0.9 WAR
[fun Orioles side note, Ortiz had more WAR in 2025 than his more ballyhooed former organization mates Jackson Holliday (1.2), Adley Rutschman (1.2), Colton Cowser (0.6) and Coby Mayo (0.2)]

10. Royce Lewis MIN (6th)
403 PA | 85 wRC+ | +2.0 DEF | 1.0 WAR
[#1 overall pick with fifteen different Top 100 rankings including four Top Tens]

09. Cam Smith HOU (8th)
493 PA | 90 wRC+ | -2.9 DEF | 1.0 WAR
[ranked between #20 and #59 before being dealt for Kyle Tucker]

08. Anthony Volpe NYY (8th)
596 PA | 83 wRC+ | +0.3 DEF | 1.0 WAR
[$300M payroll and they've got a SS even worse than us, nevermind his prospect rankings]

07. Harrison Bader PHI (9th)
194 PA | 129 wRC+ | -0.1 DEF | 1.2 WAR
[probably the 3rd best FA OF this offseason after Tucker and Bellinger]

06. Marcell Ozuna ATL (6th)
592 PA | 114 wRC+ | -14.8 DEF | 1.2 WAR
[free agent DH likely destined for a one year deal]

05. Javier Baez DET (9th)
437 PA | 86 wRC+ | +4.7 DEF | 1.4 WAR
[once tagged a guy out at home plate from center field, look it up, it's true]

04. Joey Ortiz MIL (9th)
506 PA | 67 wRC+ | +13.9 DEF | 1.4 WAR
[the guy this post is about]

03. Romy Gonzalez BOS (10th)
341 PA | 123 wRC+ | -4.7 DEF | 1.5 WAR
[famously attended a high school reunion with Michelle]

02. Matt Shaw CHC (10th)
437 PA | 93 wRC+ | +1.6 DEF | 1.5 WAR
[kinda like if Joey hit better but couldn't play SS]

01. Nathan Lukes TOR (11th)
438 PA | 103 wRC+ | +2.3 DEF | 1.8 WAR
[there you have it, Nathan Lukes (who exceeded 100 PA in a season for the first time at age 30) was thee very bestest ninth best player on his team in all of MLB for 2025]

Just to do some final accounting at the end if anyone managed to make it this far...

- the thirty ninth best players on their teams in 2025 totaled 23.8 WAR for an average of around 0.8 WAR each. 

- in 2025, Joey Ortiz's 1.4 WAR would have ranked 2nd on one team, 3rd on three teams, 4th on four teams, 5th on three teams, 6th on six teams, 7th on one team, 8th on five teams, 9th on four teams, 10th on two teams and 11th on one team. Put it all together and he would be something like the 6th or 7th best player on an average team that doesn't have the depth of the Brewers and a handful of other clubs. 

Ultimately, having someone like Joey Ortiz as your 9th (or even 8th) best player is a small luxury. I'd love to bring in an upgrade to the infield (whether that is at SS or at 2B/3B sliding Turang to SS) but between scant options likely to be available this winter, the cost to acquire them, and the pending arrival of guys like Pratt & Made, it wouldn't surprise me if the Brewers roll with what they've got and hope that Joey can bounce back closer to average with the bat next year.

 

Nicely done, sir. 

[Soupy]

A lot of great work went into that but………I think the angst comes from the number of times Joey came to bat with runners in scoring position and how often he produced nothing. Give him his defensive props, which factors into WAR, but find a SS that can at least once in a while drive in some runs with the bases loaded. 

[Frisbee Slider]

A different look:

There were 11 players with 500 PA that had less bWAR than Joey Ortiz in 2025.

 

 

[SF70]

Steamer has Joey up to a 95 wRC+ for next season and if that comes to fruition — we have ourselves one valuable SS. 

No way this team is going to replace Joey this offseason with his GG-type defense at the most important defensive position on the field, especially with this team’s belief in run prevention. My guess is the team’s internal projections have him closer to Steamer’s projection’s than his hitting of last year. 

Let’s see where things stand at the trade-deadline. 

[Soupy]

Is a Pratt or Made in season MLB promotion possible?

[mudbutt]

34 minutes ago, Soupy said:

Is a Pratt or Made in season MLB promotion possible?

Probably not and Pratt would probably hit like Turang did his first season anyway.  SS is a dire position in the league so my guess is Ortiz will have a shorter leash and Turang will be moved to SS if Ortiz doesn’t perform.  Then you can at least trade for a 2nd/3rd baseman if it comes down to it.

[ClosetBrewerFan]

Thanks Sveum. This reinforces my belief that they will roll with Joey next year at SS. The Brewers should absolutely look to upgrade their roster given the chance, but I see very few better options that are available to the Brewers. Fangraphs is projecting Joey for a 2.4 WAR next year, which would be 5th best in the lineup and 7th best on the team. If the Brewers evaluate him similarly, they will keep him where he is. We should be focusing on upgrading the OF as our 3rd best OF (Collins) projects to have a 0.7 WAR next year. 

[RobertCrawley]

2 hours ago, Soupy said:

A lot of great work went into that but………I think the angst comes from the number of times Joey came to bat with runners in scoring position and how often he produced nothing. Give him his defensive props, which factors into WAR, but find a SS that can at least once in a while drive in some runs with the bases loaded. 

Yep. Is there an advanced stat to answer the question, Is he clutch?

[long ball]

I think this is a very fair point. A team can and should be able to survive a player like 2025 Ortiz and still be a good team (heck, we were!)

however, we don’t have the top flight talent at the top of the roster to help balance it out like many of the other playoff teams/contenders. 
 

FWIW- I expect Ortiz will be our starting SS heading into 2026 and I’m fine with it. 

[sveumrules]

2 hours ago, Frisbee Slider said:

A different look:

There were 11 players with 500 PA that had less bWAR than Joey Ortiz in 2025.

Couple issues going on here.

BRef uses DRS for their defensive input and they think Joey cost the Brewers two runs in the field last year. FanGraphs uses a regressed version of FRV which credited Joey with +7.7 runs saved in the field. I think most would agree that FG did a better job of capturing Joey's defensive performance and value than BRef did last year.

The other is the size of the player pool. Only 146 players reached 500 PA last year (just under five per team) so it is kind of an accomplishment of its own. With nine teams and thirty lineup spots, being something like the 135th best player puts you right in the middle of the 270 "regular" players needed to field all 30 teams.

Lowering the PA threshold to 300 and jumping back over to FanGraphs gets us to 277 players, or just over nine per team, that got the most regular playing time. On that leaderboard Joey's 1.4 WAR puts him in in an eleven way tie for 152nd to 162nd place, or something like the 6th best player on a team if performance was evenly distributed.

But from going thru the list above we know that many "ninth best players" on their team don't even reach 300 PA. Many teams have multiple regular lineup holes so their "ninth best player" is a backup or small sample warrior. Widening the scope to the 537 players with at least 50 PA, Joey Ortiz and the other guys with 1.4 WAR slide down a dozen spots to between 164th and 175th on the leaderboard. The WAR range for spots #241 to #270 (the "ninth best players" if performance was evenly distributed) has three guys at 0.8 WAR, twenty one guys at 0.7 WAR, and six guys at 0.6 WAR. 

 

[HarryDoyle]

Considering he was half of what netted us Burnes, I'd expect more.

[jl419]

Quote

Couple issues going on here.

BRef uses DRS for their defensive input and they think Joey cost the Brewers two runs in the field last year. FanGraphs uses a regressed version of FRV which credited Joey with +7.7 runs saved in the field. I think most would agree that FG did a better job of capturing Joey's defensive performance and value than BRef did last year.

The other is the size of the player pool. Only 146 players reached 500 PA last year (just under five per team) so it is kind of an accomplishment of its own. With nine teams and thirty lineup spots, being something like the 135th best player puts you right in the middle of the 270 "regular" players needed to field all 30 teams.

Lowering the PA threshold to 300 and jumping back over to FanGraphs gets us to 277 players, or just over nine per team, that got the most regular playing time. On that leaderboard Joey's 1.4 WAR puts him in in an eleven way tie for 152nd to 162nd place, or something like the 6th best player on a team if performance was evenly distributed.

But from going thru the list above we know that many "ninth best players" on their team don't even reach 300 PA. Many teams have multiple regular lineup holes so their "ninth best player" is a backup or small sample warrior. Widening the scope to the 537 players with at least 50 PA, Joey Ortiz and the other guys with 1.4 WAR slide down a dozen spots to between 164th and 175th on the leaderboard. The WAR range for spots #241 to #270 (the "ninth best players" if performance was evenly distributed) has three guys at 0.8 WAR, twenty one guys at 0.7 WAR, and six guys at 0.6 WAR. 

I agree with all of this. However, WAR correlates to playing time (if the player has positive value). Ortiz was afforded the opportunity stay an everyday player despite his struggles at the plate, so he accumulated more WAR due to his defense. Comparing his WAR to players (that also had positive value) with a fraction of his playing time (due to injury, platoon, call up, taking over the position later in the year, etc.) is also misleading imo. Having said that, I agree he will likely be our SS next year and I'm good with that. I think he is a better hitter than what he showed in 2025. I don't think it's realistic we acquire a SS better than Ortiz but I also wouldn't mind if we somehow landed an upgrade at 2B/3B and move Turang to SS. 

[sveumrules]

3 hours ago, Soupy said:

I think the angst comes from the number of times Joey came to bat with runners in scoring position and how often he produced nothing.

Part of that is the Brewers 1,701 PA with RISP was 2nd most in MLB so everybody on the Brewers came to bat with RISP more frequently than average. Here's a fun (?) fact, hitting primarily ninth in the Brewers order Joey Ortiz had 156 PA with RISP, hitting 2nd/3rd in the Yankees order Aaron Judge had 158 PA with RISP.

Ortiz's poor performance with RISP (156 PA of 71 wRC+) was also exasperated by literally every other Brewer regular being above average with RISP...Contreras (188 PA of 125 wRC+), Yelich (178 PA of 130 wRC+), Turang (170 PA of 161 wRC+), Frelick (143 PA of 101 wRC+), Durbin (142 PA of 103 wRC+), Chourio (123 PA of 114 wRC+), Collins (114 PA of 134 wRC+), Hoskins (94 PA of 106 wRC+), and Vaughn (87 PA of 156 wRC+).

If it's any consolation, Ortiz's had 237 PA last year with runners on base and hit 283/320/361 (92 wRC+), much better than his 269 PA with the bases empty where he hit 183/238/279 (45 wRC+).

It was a similar story for Joey in 2024 too with 228 PA of 126 wRC+ with runners on versus 283 PA of 88 wRC+ with the bases empty.

League average wRC+ for runners on versus bases empty was 104 to 96 last year, and 107 to 95 in 2024, so Joey's 109 to 67 split over the last two years is definitely wider than average.

[sveumrules]

11 minutes ago, HarryDoyle said:

Considering he was half of what netted us Burnes, I'd expect more.

Corbin Burnes put up 4.5 rWAR in his lone Baltimore season, Ortiz has put up 4.6 WAR is his two years with the Brewers.

[Frisbee Slider]

22 minutes ago, sveumrules said:

Only 146 players reached 500 PA last year (just under five per team) so it is kind of an accomplishment of its own.

That’s fair. And I’m on #TeamJoey

We all agree Ortiz’s defense is immensely valuable. We all hope his offense improves toward what we (modesty) expect in 2026.

As it were, Ortiz had third lowest OPS+ of all hitters with 400+ PA in 2025. Milwaukee should aspire to not giving someone 500 PA with such a low OPS+.

Ke’Bryan Hayes’ bat was a whisper worse. Nick Allen got 416 PA for a bad Braves team. Both players also very good with the glove, as one would hope.

Astros traded for Nick Allen, yesterday.

[ReverendBrewmeister]

5 hours ago, Soupy said:

A lot of great work went into that but………I think the angst comes from the number of times Joey came to bat with runners in scoring position and how often he produced nothing. Give him his defensive props, which factors into WAR, but find a SS that can at least once in a while drive in some runs with the bases loaded. 

@sveumrulesgave a good reply to that above concerning Ortiz batting with RISP.

The strangest thing was to see the huge differences between Ortiz batting with runners on base, runners in scoring position, or with the bases loaded, as seen from his Baseball Reference page:

Split	G	GS	PA	AB	R	H	2B	3B	HR	RBI	SB	CS	BB	SO	BA	OBP	SLG	OPS	TB	GDP	HBP	SH	SF	IBB	ROE	BAbip	tOPS+	sOPS+
RISP	105		156	144	51	38	3	0	1	37	8	0	6	23	.264	.298	.306	.604	44	4	1	5	0	0	1	.308	105	64
---	136		269	251	4	46	10	1	4	4	0	0	16	41	.183	.238	.279	.517	70	0	2	0	0	0	1	.204	74	48
Men On	125		237	219	58	62	8	0	3	41	14	3	11	33	.283	.320	.361	.681	79	10	1	6	0	0	1	.322	130	85
1--	72		81	75	7	24	5	0	2	4	6	3	5	10	.320	.363	.467	.829	35	6	0	1	0	0	0	.349	179	126
-2-	50		52	49	6	12	1	0	0	4	0	0	2	7	.245	.275	.265	.540	13	0	0	1	0	0	1	.286	83	49
--3	11		12	10	5	1	0	0	0	1	0	0	2	4	.100	.250	.100	.350	1	0	0	0	0	0	0	.167	22	-3
12-	37		39	35	8	15	1	0	0	7	2	0	1	3	.429	.444	.457	.902	16	0	0	3	0	0	0	.469	205	152
1-3	16		10	8	11	2	0	0	0	3	6	0	0	0	.250	.333	.250	.583	2	1	1	1	0	0	0	.250	100	60
-23	12		12	12	8	3	0	0	0	6	0	0	0	5	.250	.250	.250	.500	3	0	0	0	0	0	0	.429	69	24
123	30		31	30	13	5	1	0	1	16	0	0	1	4	.167	.194	.300	.494	9	3	0	0	0	0	0	.160	65	27

These are definitely small sample sizes, but look at those lines with a runner on 3rd base only (--3) or with the bases loaded (123). Those are the anchors that just dragged down Ortiz's overall stats. It's not that Ortiz was great with RISP, but it's the hitting with bases loaded or a runner only on third that we remember the most.

A real quirk in 2025 that Ortiz had 31 plate appearances with the bases loaded and 12 plate appearances with a runner on third base only, That was 8.5% of his 506 plate appearances. But those are prime run scoring opportunities, in which he just basically bombed.

[markedman5]

12 hours ago, sveumrules said:

Joey Ortiz was the Brewers worst regular player last year, with his 1.4 WAR ranking 9th on the team. He played enough to barely qualify for the batting title (506 PA), hit really bad (his 67 wRC+ was 266th of 277 players with at least 300 PA), and fielded really well (his +13.9 DEF was 17th of those same 277 players). Joey's +2.5 BsR (46th) was also enough to sneak him just inside the back end of the Top 50 on the bases in a run of consecutive familiar names...Brice Turang (+2.6), Tyrone Taylor (+2.5), Sal Frelick (+2.5), Caleb Durbin (+2.3).

But I was curious, how good is your ninth best player supposed to be anyway? So I did some clicking around and below have transcribed all thirty of the ninth best players on every team in MLB for 2025. In parentheses after each team I have included where Oritz's 1.4 WAR would have placed him on that particular team's leaderboard. I also bolded the other playoff teams for reference. Here goes...

30. Owen Miller COL (2nd)
17 PA | 28 wRC+ | +0.9 DEF | 0.0 WAR
[yes, this was the Rockies 9th best player this year]

29. Christian Moore LAA (4th)
184 PA | 82 wRC+ | -0.7 DEF | 0.2 WAR
[what's that you say, an Angels prospect rushed to the show after only 410 PA in the minors?]

28. Dylan Crews WAS (3rd)
322 PA | 77 wRC+ | -1.6 DEF | 0.2 WAR
[#2 overall pick and consensus Top Ten prospect Dylan Crews]

27. Tommy Pham PIT (4th)
449 PA | 94 wRC+ | -6.3 DEF | 0.2 WAR
[noted fantasy football commish]

26. Austin Slater CHW (3rd)
135 PA | 100 wRC+ | -1.3 DEF | 0.3 WAR
[professional backup / shortside platoon OF with between 104 PA and 325 PA each of the last nine seasons]

25. Freddy Fermin KCR (4th)
208 PA | 79 wRC+ | +3.5 DEF | 0.4 WAR
[backup backstop]

24. Brayan Rocchio CLE (4th)
383 PA | 77 wRC+ | +1.6 DEF | 0.4 WAR
[got nine different Top 100 rankings between #47 and #98 before graduating]

23. Christian Koss SFG (5th)
191 PA | 91 wRC+ | -0.6 DEF | 0.5 WAR
[had to look this guy up, 12th round minor league grinder 27 year old rookie]

22. Johnny DeLuca TBR (6th)
59 PA | 124 wRC+ | +0.4 DEF | 0.6 WAR
[part of the Glasnow to Dodgers deal]

21. Michael Helman TEX (6th)
110 PA | 106 wRC+ | +0.2 DEF | 0.6 WAR
[second guy I had to look up, not an heir to the mayonnaise empire from what I can tell]

20. Max Schuemann ATH (7th)
213 PA | 62 wRC+ | +7.4 DEF | 0.6 WAR
[only heard of this guy when he was named a GG finalist this year]

19. Bryce Johnson SDP (6th)
84 PA | 135 wRC+ | -0.2 DEF | 0.7 WAR
[thought he smoked us this year, but only got two singles in 12 AB, memory is faulty]

18. Miguel Andujar CIN (3rd)
110 PA | 159 wRC+ | -2.7 DEF | 0.7 WAR
[small sample warrior]

17. James McCann ARI (6th)
137 PA | 110 wRC+ | +1.3 DEF | 0.7 WAR
[another backup backstop]

16. Eugenio Suarez SEA (8th)
220 PA | 91 wRC+ | +1.3 DEF | 0.7 WAR
[trade deadline prize]

15. Javier Sanoja MIA (5th)
342 PA | 86 wRC+ | +1.7 DEF | 0.7 WAR
[only heard of this guy when he won utility GG this year]

14. Hyesong Kim LAD (8th)
170 PA | 95 wRC+ | +1.6 DEF | 0.8 WAR
[KBO superstar turned Dodgers backup utility guy]

13. Tyrone Taylor NYM (9th)
341 PA | 70 wRC+ | +6.0 DEF | 0.8 WAR
[always good to see an old friend again]

12. Lars Nootbar STL (8th)
583 PA | 96 wRC+ | -7.0 DEF | 0.8 WAR
[still trying to live up to the name]

11. Ramon Urias BAL (5th)
290 PA | 91 wRC+ | +3.2 DEF | 0.9 WAR
[fun Orioles side note, Ortiz had more WAR in 2025 than his more ballyhooed former organization mates Jackson Holliday (1.2), Adley Rutschman (1.2), Colton Cowser (0.6) and Coby Mayo (0.2)]

10. Royce Lewis MIN (6th)
403 PA | 85 wRC+ | +2.0 DEF | 1.0 WAR
[#1 overall pick with fifteen different Top 100 rankings including four Top Tens]

09. Cam Smith HOU (8th)
493 PA | 90 wRC+ | -2.9 DEF | 1.0 WAR
[ranked between #20 and #59 before being dealt for Kyle Tucker]

08. Anthony Volpe NYY (8th)
596 PA | 83 wRC+ | +0.3 DEF | 1.0 WAR
[$300M payroll and they've got a SS even worse than us, nevermind his prospect rankings]

07. Harrison Bader PHI (9th)
194 PA | 129 wRC+ | -0.1 DEF | 1.2 WAR
[probably the 3rd best FA OF this offseason after Tucker and Bellinger]

06. Marcell Ozuna ATL (6th)
592 PA | 114 wRC+ | -14.8 DEF | 1.2 WAR
[free agent DH likely destined for a one year deal]

05. Javier Baez DET (9th)
437 PA | 86 wRC+ | +4.7 DEF | 1.4 WAR
[once tagged a guy out at home plate from center field, look it up, it's true]

04. Joey Ortiz MIL (9th)
506 PA | 67 wRC+ | +13.9 DEF | 1.4 WAR
[the guy this post is about]

03. Romy Gonzalez BOS (10th)
341 PA | 123 wRC+ | -4.7 DEF | 1.5 WAR
[famously attended a high school reunion with Michelle]

02. Matt Shaw CHC (10th)
437 PA | 93 wRC+ | +1.6 DEF | 1.5 WAR
[kinda like if Joey hit better but couldn't play SS]

01. Nathan Lukes TOR (11th)
438 PA | 103 wRC+ | +2.3 DEF | 1.8 WAR
[there you have it, Nathan Lukes (who exceeded 100 PA in a season for the first time at age 30) was thee very bestest ninth best player on his team in all of MLB for 2025]

Just to do some final accounting at the end if anyone managed to make it this far...

- the thirty ninth best players on their teams in 2025 totaled 23.8 WAR for an average of around 0.8 WAR each. 

- in 2025, Joey Ortiz's 1.4 WAR would have ranked 2nd on one team, 3rd on three teams, 4th on four teams, 5th on three teams, 6th on six teams, 7th on one team, 8th on five teams, 9th on four teams, 10th on two teams and 11th on one team. Put it all together and he would be something like the 6th or 7th best player on an average team that doesn't have the depth of the Brewers and a handful of other clubs. 

Ultimately, having someone like Joey Ortiz as your 9th (or even 8th) best player is a small luxury. I'd love to bring in an upgrade to the infield (whether that is at SS or at 2B/3B sliding Turang to SS) but between scant options likely to be available this winter, the cost to acquire them, and the pending arrival of guys like Pratt & Made, it wouldn't surprise me if the Brewers roll with what they've got and hope that Joey can bounce back closer to average with the bat next year.

 

Another 10 War post from Sveum………🫡

[RobertCrawley]

59 minutes ago, ReverendBrewmeister said:

@sveumrulesgave a good reply to that above concerning Ortiz batting with RISP.

The strangest thing was to see the huge differences between Ortiz batting with runners on base, runners in scoring position, or with the bases loaded, as seen from his Baseball Reference page:

Split	G	GS	PA	AB	R	H	2B	3B	HR	RBI	SB	CS	BB	SO	BA	OBP	SLG	OPS	TB	GDP	HBP	SH	SF	IBB	ROE	BAbip	tOPS+	sOPS+
RISP	105		156	144	51	38	3	0	1	37	8	0	6	23	.264	.298	.306	.604	44	4	1	5	0	0	1	.308	105	64
---	136		269	251	4	46	10	1	4	4	0	0	16	41	.183	.238	.279	.517	70	0	2	0	0	0	1	.204	74	48
Men On	125		237	219	58	62	8	0	3	41	14	3	11	33	.283	.320	.361	.681	79	10	1	6	0	0	1	.322	130	85
1--	72		81	75	7	24	5	0	2	4	6	3	5	10	.320	.363	.467	.829	35	6	0	1	0	0	0	.349	179	126
-2-	50		52	49	6	12	1	0	0	4	0	0	2	7	.245	.275	.265	.540	13	0	0	1	0	0	1	.286	83	49
--3	11		12	10	5	1	0	0	0	1	0	0	2	4	.100	.250	.100	.350	1	0	0	0	0	0	0	.167	22	-3
12-	37		39	35	8	15	1	0	0	7	2	0	1	3	.429	.444	.457	.902	16	0	0	3	0	0	0	.469	205	152
1-3	16		10	8	11	2	0	0	0	3	6	0	0	0	.250	.333	.250	.583	2	1	1	1	0	0	0	.250	100	60
-23	12		12	12	8	3	0	0	0	6	0	0	0	5	.250	.250	.250	.500	3	0	0	0	0	0	0	.429	69	24
123	30		31	30	13	5	1	0	1	16	0	0	1	4	.167	.194	.300	.494	9	3	0	0	0	0	0	.160	65	27

These are definitely small sample sizes, but look at those lines with a runner on 3rd base only (--3) or with the bases loaded (123). Those are the anchors that just dragged down Ortiz's overall stats. It's not that Ortiz was great with RISP, but it's the hitting with bases loaded or a runner only on third that we remember the most.

A real quirk in 2025 that Ortiz had 31 plate appearances with the bases loaded and 12 plate appearances with a runner on third base only, That was 8.5% of his 506 plate appearances. But those are prime run scoring opportunities, in which he just basically bombed.

Great points!! It felt to me like JoeyO was coming to the plate with base loaded at least once every series, and he failed every time. The stats help with reality.

[ClosetBrewerFan]

1 hour ago, ReverendBrewmeister said:

@sveumrulesgave a good reply to that above concerning Ortiz batting with RISP.

The strangest thing was to see the huge differences between Ortiz batting with runners on base, runners in scoring position, or with the bases loaded, as seen from his Baseball Reference page:

Split	G	GS	PA	AB	R	H	2B	3B	HR	RBI	SB	CS	BB	SO	BA	OBP	SLG	OPS	TB	GDP	HBP	SH	SF	IBB	ROE	BAbip	tOPS+	sOPS+
RISP	105		156	144	51	38	3	0	1	37	8	0	6	23	.264	.298	.306	.604	44	4	1	5	0	0	1	.308	105	64
---	136		269	251	4	46	10	1	4	4	0	0	16	41	.183	.238	.279	.517	70	0	2	0	0	0	1	.204	74	48
Men On	125		237	219	58	62	8	0	3	41	14	3	11	33	.283	.320	.361	.681	79	10	1	6	0	0	1	.322	130	85
1--	72		81	75	7	24	5	0	2	4	6	3	5	10	.320	.363	.467	.829	35	6	0	1	0	0	0	.349	179	126
-2-	50		52	49	6	12	1	0	0	4	0	0	2	7	.245	.275	.265	.540	13	0	0	1	0	0	1	.286	83	49
--3	11		12	10	5	1	0	0	0	1	0	0	2	4	.100	.250	.100	.350	1	0	0	0	0	0	0	.167	22	-3
12-	37		39	35	8	15	1	0	0	7	2	0	1	3	.429	.444	.457	.902	16	0	0	3	0	0	0	.469	205	152
1-3	16		10	8	11	2	0	0	0	3	6	0	0	0	.250	.333	.250	.583	2	1	1	1	0	0	0	.250	100	60
-23	12		12	12	8	3	0	0	0	6	0	0	0	5	.250	.250	.250	.500	3	0	0	0	0	0	0	.429	69	24
123	30		31	30	13	5	1	0	1	16	0	0	1	4	.167	.194	.300	.494	9	3	0	0	0	0	0	.160	65	27

 

Based on this, the Brewers should only allow Joey to hit with runners on 1st or 1st and 2nd next year.

[markedman5]

4 minutes ago, ClosetBrewerFan said:

Based on this, the Brewers should only allow Joey to hit with runners on 1st or 1st and 2nd next year.

Hey Rob……..how about a ghost hitter? Once or twice a game……..that’s all we’re asking!

[HarryDoyle]

4 hours ago, sveumrules said:

Corbin Burnes put up 4.5 rWAR in his lone Baltimore season, Ortiz has put up 4.6 WAR is his two years with the Brewers.

Which just goes to show again how meaningless stats are. You can make them say anything you want them to say.

[Frisbee Slider]

18 minutes ago, HarryDoyle said:

Which just goes to show again how meaningless stats are. You can make them say anything you want them to say.

That’s not to say Ortiz is better than Burnes. It is probably accurate to say that Burnes was never going to help Milwaukee after his final year of arbitration. In that sense, we traded one excellent year of Burnes to Baltimore for several years of above average Joey Ortiz and DL Hall.

[mudbutt]

Also the trade included the 34th pick which became Blake Burke, who signed under slot which helped sign promising guys like Dubanewicz.  As far as Burke goes he finally got his ground ball rate down in the second half in AA and produced stellar numbers there.  Hopefully it was not a fluke because he’s got crazy power.