Brewers Acquire Jesse Winker and Abraham Toro from Mariners for Wong

[Lajitas]

11 hours ago, UpandIn said:

He's also CLEARLY not the 3rd rookie, he'd be the #1 rookie given the 70 hit tool and the dominance at the higher levels, the things Flanigan has said about him as a prospect(ya know, the guy in charge of overseeing prospect development).

He IS the third rookie that would be in the lineup.  Regardless of where Frelick plays, there are already two rookies that would be in the starting lineup.  So he would be the third, regardless of talent level.

Two guys punch you in the face.  Then Mike Tyson punches you in the face.  Was that punch from Tyson the #1 punch?  It was probably the best punch of the lot, but it was the THIRD punch.

Do you understand how counting works?

 

[Lajitas]

13 hours ago, Sixtolezcano said:

By making that statement you become a pariah on this site. There are posters on this site that will never forgive or forget your opinion Of the golden boy Frelick. Best to change your nickname and go underground.

How dare you suggest Frelick isn't anything short of the savior of the franchise.  Don't you realize that he will be the first player ever elected to the Hall of Fame before he retires?

[Team Canada]

1 hour ago, Lajitas said:

How dare you suggest Frelick isn't anything short of the savior of the franchise.  Don't you realize that he will be the first player ever elected to the Hall of Fame before he retires?

Stop it. Next time it's just getting deleted.

[Team Canada]

1 hour ago, Lajitas said:

He IS the third rookie that would be in the lineup.  Regardless of where Frelick plays, there are already two rookies that would be in the starting lineup.  So he would be the third, regardless of talent level.

Two guys punch you in the face.  Then Mike Tyson punches you in the face.  Was that punch from Tyson the #1 punch?  It was probably the best punch of the lot, but it was the THIRD punch.

Do you understand how counting works?

 

Quit the condescension as well. 

[monty57]

5 hours ago, Brewcrew82 said:

Can I ask why you would prefer Vasquez over Jansen? Jansen is younger and a better hitter. Just screaming as a potential all-star breakout if given regular playing time...

Jansen is a free agent after 2024, which is the same year that we have a lot of guys becoming free agents. We’d likely be trading someone like Wiemer for one year of Jansen and then trading him along with Burnes, Woodruff, Adames, Houser, and Lauer next off-season. 
 

You can’t always get what you want, but I’d prefer that any trade of one of our better prospects would bring back someone with more team control. 

[Brewcrew82]

3 minutes ago, monty57 said:

Jansen is a free agent after 2024, which is the same year that we have a lot of guys becoming free agents. We’d likely be trading someone like Wiemer for one year of Jansen and then trading him along with Burnes, Woodruff, Adames, Houser, and Lauer next off-season. 
 

You can’t always get what you want, but I’d prefer that any trade of one of our better prospects would bring back someone with more team control. 

As I said, there's a real possibility that we would be able to extend Jansen given that he's from Wisconsin, which would make parting with a prospect worth it imo. If we're going for it this year, then this makes sense. 

[Jopal78]

7 hours ago, Brewcrew82 said:

As I said, there's a real possibility that we would be able to extend Jansen given that he's from Wisconsin, which would make parting with a prospect worth it imo. If we're going for it this year, then this makes sense. 

Why would the fact that someone is from Wisconsin make any bit of difference in that regard?
 

99% of players go wherever the most money is. Plus with their life style they can live anywhere they choose to begin with. 

[sveumrules]

1 hour ago, Jopal78 said:

Why would the fact that someone is from Wisconsin make any bit of difference in that regard?
 

99% of players go wherever the most money is. Plus with their life style they can live anywhere they choose to begin with. 

Jansen was a 16th round pick who received a 100K to sign and has made less than five million in his MLB career so far.

Seems like the kind of player who might be interested in extending before FA, which more than 1% of players do.

[Hacksaw Jim Duggan]

Just a recap of the Brewer off-season.  Renfroe and Wong plus their $20 million in salaries have been replaced relievers Junk, Peguero, and Seminaris.  Outfielder Jesse Winker and infielder Abraham Toro and a savings of around $8 million.  Good trades.  Bring on the winter meetings.  I hope some teams overpay for a couple of Brewers.

[Harold Hutchison]

13 minutes ago, Hacksaw Jim Duggan said:

Just a recap of the Brewer off-season.  Renfroe and Wong plus their $20 million in salaries have been replaced relievers Junk, Peguero, and Seminaris.  Outfielder Jesse Winker and infielder Abraham Toro and a savings of around $8 million.  Good trades.  Bring on the winter meetings.  I hope some teams overpay for a couple of Brewers.

Who?

[Hacksaw Jim Duggan]

2 hours ago, clancyphile said:

Who?

Any Brewer.  Do not get attached to anyone.  No one is untouchable.  If the offer is incredible take it.  Milwaukee is not good enough to turn down exceptional offers.  

[rickh150]

15 hours ago, Brewcrew82 said:

 

 

The promise lasts what… til June? Still will be surprised if they all are here by season’s end.
Trading off Hader, Renfroe, and Wong for uninspiring “junk”….then proclaiming how the core three are off limits, guys that would actually bring back a haul of prospects, all because of devotion to 2023 (not 2024, by the way….a couple or all traded, I expect, for less). Mixed messages. Even if team is ok come July, no one is safe.
Brewers are trading like a seller, and preaching like a buyer for 2023. We’ll see if any move gets us excited. That hasn’t happened yet. We are worse, on paper, than last year right now. We’ll see.

[Brewcrew82]

9 minutes ago, rickh150 said:

The promise lasts what… til June? Still will be surprised if they all are here by season’s end.
Trading off Hader, Renfroe, and Wong for uninspiring “junk”….then proclaiming how the core three are off limits, guys that would actually bring back a haul of prospects, all because of devotion to 2023 (not 2024, by the way….a couple or all traded, I expect, for less). Mixed messages. Even if team is ok come July, no one is safe.
Brewers are trading like a seller, and preaching like a buyer for 2023. We’ll see if any move gets us excited. That hasn’t happened yet. We are worse, on paper, than last year right now. We’ll see.

Seemed like you meant this offseason, which is why I included the above series of tweets. I think it's clear at this point that all three will be on the roster come opening day.

As far as the entirety of the season, I do think all bets are off if we're out of contention for some reason and that they'd be a good bet to be traded at the deadline in that scenario. However, since I, along with most experts, expect us to be in contention throughout the season on the strength of our top-flight pitching, I don't think trading them in-season is especially likely. The FO has seemingly learned its lesson from the Hader fiasco. 

[Brewcrew82]

4 hours ago, Jopal78 said:

Why would the fact that someone is from Wisconsin make any bit of difference in that regard?
 

99% of players go wherever the most money is. Plus with their life style they can live anywhere they choose to begin with. 

Except for the fact that we would have exclusive negotiating rights with Jansen as he would be under our control for the next two years. Given that he's a former 16th round draft pick who has made less than $5 million in his MLB career so far, as @sveumruleshighlighted, I think he would be quite tempted to take the life-altering, guaranteed money right away, especially when doing so would enable him to play close to home in front of his family and friends.

To simply say "they go wherever the most money is" and "with their lifestyle they can live anywhere they choose to begin with" is very narrow minded and not necessarily in accordance with reality. Family and comfortability are often just as big of concerns for these guys as money. 

FWIW, I know for a fact that Jansen maintains a home in his hometown of Appleton. So, sure he can live anywhere he chooses, but he's literally already chosen Wisconsin as one of his places of residence. 

[MVP2110]

I think it's likely the Brewers open the season with all 3 of Burnes, Woodruff, & Adames and that 2 of the 3 likely get dealt next offseason and 1 of them extended(Adames seems the most likely)

What could change that is if the Mets miss out on Verlander/Rodon and offer a kings ransom for Woodruff or Burnes

[Brewcrew82]

Just now, MVP2110 said:

I think it's likely the Brewers open the season with all 3 of Burnes, Woodruff, & Adames and that 2 of the 3 likely get dealt next offseason and 1 of them extended(Adames seems the most likely)

What could change that is if the Mets miss out on Verlander/Rodon and offer a kings ransom for Woodruff or Burnes

Thing about the Mets is I don't know if they have the players and prospects to offer us a "king's ransom" like a team such as the Dodgers does. Sure they have Francisco Alvarez, but their system is really lacking in high-level pitching, which we would presumably want if dealing Burnes or Woodruff. 

[monty57]

40 minutes ago, rickh150 said:
Brewers are trading like a seller, and preaching like a buyer for 2023. We’ll see if any move gets us excited. That hasn’t happened yet. We are worse, on paper, than last year right now. We’ll see.

In 2,070 career PAs, Winker has a wRC+ of 126. In 2,683 career PAs, Renfroe has a wRC+ of 109. In his down year last year, Winker posted a 108 wRC+, so offensively we have an upgrade there. Defensively, Frelick or Mitchell will almost assuredly be better than Renfroe, and hopefully will be able to match McCutchen’s 98 wRC+. So, I’d say RF/DH has been upgraded fairly substantially. 
 

We’ll have to see if they give Turang the everyday 2b role. He’d likely be better defensively than Wong was last season. Offensively, Wong did well after he got platooned. Overall, Wong posted a 2.5 Fangraphs WAR. Turang could do that, but Steamer projects him for 1.4, so probably a bit of a downgrade as Turang “gets his feet wet.” 
 

The bar in CF is pretty low, so whichever of Mitchell/Frelick wins the job should be able to outproduce what we got from the position in ‘22. 
 

Yelich, Adames, Tellez, and Urias are back, so that’s a wash. I think we’ll still add a catcher, but Narvaez was pretty bad, so the bar there isn’t set very high. 
 

Our starting pitching is all still around, and hopefully they will be healthier this season. 
 

We don’t have Hader. 
 

Overall, I don’t see how we’re significantly worse. I’d say we’re probably about the same as we were last season, with a lot of off-season to go. 

[brewcrewdue80]

1 hour ago, rickh150 said:

The promise lasts what… til June? Still will be surprised if they all are here by season’s end.
Trading off Hader, Renfroe, and Wong for uninspiring “junk”….then proclaiming how the core three are off limits, guys that would actually bring back a haul of prospects, all because of devotion to 2023 (not 2024, by the way….a couple or all traded, I expect, for less). Mixed messages. Even if team is ok come July, no one is safe.
Brewers are trading like a seller, and preaching like a buyer for 2023. We’ll see if any move gets us excited. That hasn’t happened yet. We are worse, on paper, than last year right now. We’ll see.

It would be awesome to not only make but win the World Series. Burnes and Woodruff (with Peralta) provide a stellar SP trio to begin with. The team has 7? Stellar prospects that are projected to be on the team in 2023 or 2024 if not already beginning (Mitchell, Ashby) 

The opportunity to do this likely won't be any bigger than the 2024 season as the prospects catch up to the Vets. Forget this idea to trade the Elite vets away and run it out Prince Fielder style with QOs to both Burnes and Woodruff. See unlike Fielder, we will get compensation guarantee after original 1st rd choices. The team hasn't had pitching like this compared to the rest of MLB in the 30+ years I've been a fan following Milw. The moment 1 or both are removed from the team, it'll be at least 4 seasons to never having that advantage again.  Don't care what 2023 trade deadline/offseason trade return we may miss out on.  We will end up going the next decade trying to acquire a #2/3 rental to round out the SPs for a "playoff run".   Rather than 1 extra quality prospect with what should be a sure thing headliner, allow the team to find 2 talents to develop from the draft.  2024 if we are sitting below 1st place at deadline trade them both. No QO can be given and both will reap benefits due to that. It seems to me trades aren't including the added 1st rd value a team will get by just keeping that player. So the value loss from trade now to Rental value won't be much at all.

[LouisEly]

2 hours ago, brewcrewdue80 said:

It would be awesome to not only make but win the World Series. Burnes and Woodruff (with Peralta) provide a stellar SP trio to begin with. The team has 7? Stellar prospects that are projected to be on the team in 2023 or 2024 if not already beginning (Mitchell, Ashby) 

The opportunity to do this likely won't be any bigger than the 2024 season as the prospects catch up to the Vets. Forget this idea to trade the Elite vets away and run it out Prince Fielder style with QOs to both Burnes and Woodruff. See unlike Fielder, we will get compensation guarantee after original 1st rd choices. The team hasn't had pitching like this compared to the rest of MLB in the 30+ years I've been a fan following Milw. The moment 1 or both are removed from the team, it'll be at least 4 seasons to never having that advantage again.  Don't care what 2023 trade deadline/offseason trade return we may miss out on.  We will end up going the next decade trying to acquire a #2/3 rental to round out the SPs for a "playoff run".   Rather than 1 extra quality prospect with what should be a sure thing headliner, allow the team to find 2 talents to develop from the draft.  2024 if we are sitting below 1st place at deadline trade them both. No QO can be given and both will reap benefits due to that. It seems to me trades aren't including the added 1st rd value a team will get by just keeping that player. So the value loss from trade now to Rental value won't be much at all.

I've said this before, but I look back at the 2016 White Sox.  They parlayed Sale and Quintana into Dylan Cease, Michael Kopech, Eloy Jiminez, and Yoan Moncada. 

Burnes and Woodruff can be replaced.  It's not impossible.  Going with a couple of comp picks is the likely much bigger loss.

[rickh150]

Yeah, I am surprised.
Why not even shop Burnes, Woodruff or Adames? If we are not going to commit big money to them anyways, why not see what we could get. If it isn’t a ton, keep them. Why tip your hand? The team seems like they themselves don’t know what route they are taking long term or especially short.

[Brewcrew82]

5 minutes ago, rickh150 said:

Yeah, I am surprised.
Why not even shop Burnes, Woodruff or Adames? If we are not going to commit big money to them anyways, why not see what we could get. If it isn’t a ton, keep them. Why tip your hand? The team seems like they themselves don’t know what route they are taking long term or especially short.

Teams have literally called them about the Big 3 over the last few weeks. The offers obviously weren't to their liking and they still want to contend this year, so they subsequently withdrew them from the market. I wouldn't assume that they don't have a plan. 

[Hopper]

17 hours ago, Team Canada said:

Quit the condescension as well. 

Please please please, if handing out warnings for condescension, give the same warnings to all wo do the same thing on a daily basis.

I have no horse in this race, but this happens here on the regular, and every once in a while, someone gets a warning, but it is not consistent, and usually, the newer posters get the hammer dropped on them, while the vets are allowed free passes.

[Hopper]

Imagine the shock, when opening day sees Winker as our starting right fielder, Toro as our starting 3B, and Urias as our starting 2B.  Frelick and Turang still in AAA, waiting for their shot, while we run Toro and Winker out everyday, far past the time when they should be replaced.

(Yelich continues to be our starting LF, while another aging vet is picked up to DH most days)

Negative, yes, possible, also yes.

Like another poster mentioned a few pages back, I have lost faith.

[UpandIn]

On 12/3/2022 at 12:41 PM, Thurston Fluff said:

There is no scenario where trading Wong gets us a guaranteed needle mover. There is a scenario where all the planets align and Winker actually moves the needle.

They really don't ALL need to align. He's 29 and has a career line of ~.270/.375/.465.

Just an average year from Winker and not his worst year would be a needle mover. And in his worst year, he STILL put up a .344 OBP. 

[UpandIn]

18 hours ago, Lajitas said:

He IS the third rookie that would be in the lineup.  Regardless of where Frelick plays, there are already two rookies that would be in the starting lineup.  So he would be the third, regardless of talent level.

Two guys punch you in the face.  Then Mike Tyson punches you in the face.  Was that punch from Tyson the #1 punch?  It was probably the best punch of the lot, but it was the THIRD punch.

Do you understand how counting works?

 

Oh...silly me. I could have SWORN you were talking about them relying on too many rookies rather than a literal chronological order or when the rookies arrived(in which case, he'd STILL only be behind Mitchell if I understand how...counting works).

18 hours ago, Lajitas said:

How dare you suggest Frelick isn't anything short of the savior of the franchise.  Don't you realize that he will be the first player ever elected to the Hall of Fame before he retires?

LOL...why are you so angry?

You argued he hadn't spent enough time in the minors. Then you jumped into this thread(if feels like under multiple names) and played the victim without being mentioned...and why? Because people came up with a LOOOONG list of players who spent little time in AAA...including Brewers. 

But sure, "he should be an upgrade and in the lineup," is ABSOLUTELY the same as "the first player ever elected to the Hall of Fame before he retires." Just...take a breath bud.