Brewers Acquire Owen Miller From CLE; Feliciano DFA'd

[Redd Vencher]

3 minutes ago, beekay414 said:

Again, those are just examples. 

They didn't build on the roster, they tanked it. They weakened a position of strength and didn't get an impact bat while doing so. I'm not talking about a million or two, here. I'm talking significant money. The money we gave to McCutchen. I'm also not talking about spending money on the hole they created by making a misguided trade.

If they were targeting those guys, then JBJ's salary wasn't preventing anything. I would have loved your reaction at the trade deadline when acquiring 78 wRC+ Jorge Soler. No way you would have said the Brewers did enough to go for it.

The only bat that was a marked improvement over what the Brewers had in house was Soto, and the Brewers weren't getting Soto in 2022. Taylor Rogers was a top 10 RP in baseball from the time Hader debuted to the deadline. We took a step back there to get pieces for the future, and then turned around to make up the difference with Bush and Rosenthal. Rogers outpitched Hader post trade even though both were bad, so having Hader wouldn't have changed the results. Bush struggled and Rosenthal got hurt again, so while the logic behind made sense even if the results were poor. Withh hindsight, another SP would have been nice.

[UpandIn]

56 minutes ago, Redd Vencher said:

With his defense, a 89-90 wRC+ is a 2.5-3.0 WAR player. Basically the CF version of Wong (95 wRC+ with the Cardinals) for similar money.

JBJ had been worth ~18 WAR in the previous 6 seasons. Not one season below 2.0. 2.0 WAR in 2020 in 55 games.

Yeah, a lot of people were happy about that and Red Sox fans were not among them. 

[Redd Vencher]

1 minute ago, UpandIn said:

JBJ had been worth ~18 WAR in the previous 6 seasons. Not one season below 2.0. 2.0 WAR in 2020 in 55 games.

Yeah, a lot of people were happy about that and Red Sox fans were not among them. 

The complaints I remember about JBJ and Wong signings was we weren't spending on better offensive players but going all in on run prevention. People shut up about Wong because he came out and provided the best offensive seasons of his career while JBJ was dreadful.

[UpandIn]

37 minutes ago, beekay414 said:

Yes because prospects are prospects and none of them are of the elite variety so going for it is better than the half assed approach we've taken. I'd rather go after it and lose than watch that team score 6 runs in 4 games and blow what looks to be our last realistic shot at winning in this window. 

If it fails, you have Burnes, Woodruff and Hader (at that time) that you can recoup prospect value on down the line. 

Do you regret trading Michael Brantley and Matt LaPorta for CC Sabathia?

So you would have been happy trading a top 50(the elite variety) prospect who hit .365/.435/.508 for a guy with a 78 OPS+...after the fact, but anyone could have seen JBJ regression...despite being one of the most consistent players in baseball the previous 6 years?

Man...imagine how well we could draft by picking out the players we should have acquired or not acquired a year or two later?

 

Also...did you just compare CC Sabathia to...the likes of Jorge Soler? 

[Brewcrew82]

23 minutes ago, UpandIn said:

He's played quite a bit of 2nd and has been +1 OAA or 0 for his career. He can also play 1st which could the whole IF defense. Also, while that wasn't a great OPS vs LPH that was our 2nd highest OPS vs lefties...IIRC. Renfroe being our highest. And his career line is ~.830, so seems like a safe bet he'll be at worst that next year. For a guy who can play an at least passable 1B/2B/3B...and even fill in at SS if needed...AND he's cheap? Seems like with our current roster, he should be a no-brainer. Hiura, I'd love to see him back, but it's gotten hard to justify. I think he's included as a throw in, or he gets camp to see if he can earn a spot(though at this point, he's guaranteed 2M, so I don't know what they'll do with him).  

Anyway, now we've got Contreras who hit over 1.000 vs lefties, but I wouldn't expect him to hit quite THAT well. 

It's still a pretty big weakness. That and the backend of our pen...which we seem to be kinda collecting power arms and hoping someone jumps out(not an unreasonable approach IMO). 

He was pretty much limited to 3B for us last year and put up a -3.9 fDWAR and a -4 OAA. He was our worst infield defender other than Wong and Tellez. On the whole, he was only worth 0.6 fWAR, and was outpaced by Keston Hiura.

He may have been one of our better hitters against LHP last year, but that's not saying much as we were among the worst teams against LHP. If he wants to stay on the roster, he simply has to do better than a .764 OPS against LHP. It's quite possible that he'll return to his career line of .830, and that's why I think he'll be on the OD roster, but he's definitely on the hot seat. 

[UpandIn]

16 minutes ago, Redd Vencher said:

The complaints I remember about JBJ and Wong signings was we weren't spending on better offensive players but going all in on run prevention. People shut up about Wong because he came out and provided the best offensive seasons of his career while JBJ was dreadful.

Yeah...that's how I remember it. Protection against Cain. He also didn't cost 12M in yr 1. He made 3.5M dollars that season. So he absolutely did NOT stop us from signing anyone.

Also, what is this thread about? We traded nothing for an extra minor league player who may or may not play on the Brewers this year...a DAY after trading Ruiz(part of the Hader trade that was brought up) for a 24 year old AS catcher.

 

I'm kinda amazing what people complain about. This reminds me of the Blake Perkins thread. Y'all know just because we trade for a player...as long as we're NOT trading "non-elite" type prospects like Sal Frelick, Brice Turang, or Garrett Mitchell, it's basically just taking a flier on a guy. 

I don't see why these types of depth moves are met with such vitriol? So the Brewers haven't spent. I don't count the off-season as a success or a failure based on total dollars spent. 

We've added Winker and Contreras. Winker was the 3rd best hitter vs RHPing in all of baseball two years ago.
Contreras was one of the best offensive catchers in the game last year. 
Still don't like the Renfroe trade...but it's also December 14th. 

Why are we so mad again? I need to be reminded. 

[UpandIn]

8 minutes ago, Brewcrew82 said:

He was pretty much limited to 3B for us last year and put up a -3.9 fDWAR and a -4 OAA. He was our worst infield defender other than Wong and Tellez. On the whole, he was only worth 0.6 fWAR, and was outpaced by Keston Hiura.

He may have been one of our better hitters against LHP last year, but that's not saying much as we were among the worst teams against LHP. If he wants to stay on the roster, he simply has to do better than a .764 OPS against LHP. It's quite possible that he'll return to his career line of .830, and that's why I think he'll be on the OD roster, but he's definitely on the hot seat. 

Ok, well, we limited him to that and that was likely because we had Wong. That would seem like it may have been our mistake. Vs lefties, he should be out there at 1B(where he's a good defender and certainly has the frame) or 2B...where he's actually logged the most innings in Tampa. 

And you're right, that doesn't say a whole lot being the 2nd best...but it does say he's still the 2nd best unless the Brewers continue to add RHed hitters who can hit lefties. 

I mean, if they push Brosseau out, that's great. I just don't see Miller or any of the moves we've made doing that. I actually hope he gets more starts this year at 1B also. If Turang can hit lefties or stay in there vs them, that'd be our best IF defense vs LHPing without sacrificing much any offense. 

But they did just play him at 3B last year and I'm not entirely sure why that is(3 games at 1B, but I don't recall the circumstances surrounding those). So they probably need to make better use of him. 

[DoubleSwitch]

I like this move because the brewers and guardians seem very similar philosophically wrt hitting and it's working well for cleveland. Mario might end up being good but Miller could play in milwaukee right now. They're always churning out new catchers quero can be the new one to dream on.

[StearnsFTW]

Well that was a peaceful 24 hours after the Contreras trade.

 

Back to normal I see.

 

 

[MNBrew]

3 hours ago, beekay414 said:

No but you need to be able to subsidize where and when you can. The bullpen is a prime example. We chose to shed money there and go with the dart throw approach. It's Devin Williams and a mess of middle relievers (or worse) that we hope one or two will be able to pick up high leverage. 

Offseason is long and not over but, so far, nothing they've done indicates they plan on spending money to upgrade. 

There's a lot we don't know & there's a lot of winter left.  The Brewers are also rarely the team that tries to "win the offseason," just the season, and their track record the past 5 season in that regard is a lot better than plenty of the teams who spend gratuitously more and snag a lot of headlines this time of year.

[Jake McKibbin]

A good way to reset this thread...

 

Would I rather have Owen Miller than Feliciano right now? 100%

We have a 3rd catcher in Henry

Feliciano is the Dominican league is god awful right now with a 193/261/205 line, and hasnt shown much improvement at the plate, as well as regressing with the bat (per reports I heard throughout the season). A player who had promise but seems largely unfulfilled now.

 

Miller has a promising AAA stats line, a very fast athletic guy with versatility and probably allows Toro to spend a little more time honing his skills at that level as he's more upside... certainly more useful in here and now than Feliciano who I'm guessing most of the attachment is due to his initial promise over recent performance

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

12 hours ago, beekay414 said:

Fun stuff, man. Rather than going out to get a real 2B/3B, we're throwing darts at the board (cheaply) hoping they stick. Good ole Mark!

 

I must have missed where every MLB free agent signed by Dec. 15.

[Outlander]

The Brewers are below last year's payroll and are trying to win. They may not spend the money how we all want them to but no reason to believe they won't get a free agent or two still.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

I don't understand how someone can log into a site called Brewer Fanatic, make multiple posts that literally suck the joy out of the room, then get upset when other posters disagree with their opinions. Also, they seem to be assuming that the 2023 team is completely built. On Dec. 15. And that spending big money on big names in free agency is the only way to improve a team. 

[jay87shot]

Owen Miller is a decent get, he does seem a bit redundant with Toro, Hiura, and Brosseau. It is nice that he (and Toro I believe) have options. Someone brought up that he improves on the utility spot because he can play short but I would guess that he won't play much short because if Willy is out, Turang would go to SS. 

My only complaint is that he hasn't played OF, it would be nice if one of the 4 semi utility/bench options could play OF as a 5th guy. However if Mitchell and Frelich both make the team I guess Winker would be the 5th OF and have your utility guy play OF not needed.

I do think that we are undervaluing Huira a bit, I know we are just sick of seeing the potential and just frustrated he can't lay off bad pitches. Altough Huira and Brosseau are basically the same player for our team, sub par defenders who can platoon at 1st/2nd and be decent bats/ pinch hitter vs. lefties (Brosseau can play 3rd but really wouldn't unless Urias is hut). Without watching them Miller and Toro seem to have the same value as well platoon option at 2nd maybe some time at 3rd or 1st and a bench bat. My guess is that we trade Keston if we can and then Toro and Miller compete for the last bench spot and maybe 2nd base reps if Turang doesn't look great in camp (which I doubt).

[brewerfan82]

I like the signing. Nothing to get too excited about one way or another, but he's heading into his prime years, hit at every level of the minors with stats ranging from .290/.355/.430 121 wRC+ to .336/.368/.495 145 wRC+, provides depth and flexibility, has 2 MiLB options remaining, and only has about a season of MLB stats under his belt so he definitely has room to improve on what he's done to this point.

Early offseason acquisitions like Miller, Toro, Perkins, Henry, Junk, Guerra, Payamps, Varland, etc., may not be exciting and they all have their flaws, but they create depth and options as the offseason progresses. In addition to needing that kind of depth in the regular season, that flexibility will become important as the 2nd wave of players become available in the next couple months so we're not locked into any specific need if/when some late FA possibilities fall in our lap (ie. Grandal/Moustakas/Wong/even JBJ-types). And who knows, having that depth could also make some unforeseen/unlikely trade scenarios possible as well (ie. some combo of Miller/Toro/Brosseau at 2nd might not be too bad if they go all in this year and trade Urias/Turang for Devers or something, not advocating that possibility just an example).

Throw in the fact that we've also managed to add a couple of fairly major upgrades in Contreras (proj. 115 wRC+ vs Narvaez's '22 71 wRC+)  and Winker (proj. 122 wRC+ vs McCutchen's '22 98 wRC+), while also creating extra payroll space, and I'm quite happy with how this offseason is going so far.

[monty57]

A) Why do people who are fans of a small-market team continually complain about the team's lack of spending?

B) Why is spending more money so important? If the team can improve while spending less money, that's a really good thing, and that seems to be what has happened so far this year.

C) Why is this another "we need to spend money" / "who can we target in free agency" thread, instead of a discussion of the thread's topic, which is obtaining a potential utility guy in Miller, and the DFAing of a site-favorite prospect in Feliciano? There is a whole section on the site dedicated to trade rumors and free agent speculation.

[jerichoholicninja]

Owen should at least be a financial wash for the ball club as the amount of people who buy tickets to see the local kid play should probably cover his salary.

[Tony C]

16 hours ago, Jopal78 said:

Fall out from Contreras trade. Feliciano in last option year and not yet ready for prime time. Hiura’s seat is getting warmer unless all these infielders are going to play at AAA 

Hiura started showing some consistency at the plate when they brought him back up to the big league team the last part of the 2022 season.  If he can keep hitting he'll be on the big league roster. True he's out of options,... but I can't see him getting picked up if he is DFA'ed. It's still possible he's packaged in a trade.

Whether he's on the roster or not,... it doesn't make a big difference.  We know what he can do in the field,.. it's all about hitting with some consistency for Keston.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Come on, everyone, let's get back on topic. Disagreement not only happens, it is encouraged. Just keep it respectful and let's not snipe at one another.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

Back to Miller .... pretty cool story to see a local kid have a chance to make a mark with the Brewers. Miller was once a pretty well thought-of prospect as well. He'll be an interesting story to watch in Spring Training. 

[Jopal78]

24 minutes ago, Tony C said:

Hiura started showing some consistency at the plate when they brought him back up to the big league team the last part of the 2022 season.  If he can keep hitting he'll be on the big league roster. True he's out of options,... but I can't see him getting picked up if he is DFA'ed. It's still possible he's packaged in a trade.

Whether he's on the roster or not,... it doesn't make a big difference.  We know what he can do in the field,.. it's all about hitting with some consistency for Keston.

I don't know about that. There have been some long threads debating  Hiura in the past. The Brewers didn't non-tender him, so anything is possible, but his big 2019 season keeps receding further and further in the rearview mirror. 

 

[monty57]

25 minutes ago, Jopal78 said:

I don't know about that. There have been some long threads debating  Hiura in the past. The Brewers didn't non-tender him, so anything is possible, but his big 2019 season keeps receding further and further in the rearview mirror. 

 

At least to some extent, I defended Hiura last year, but it seemed pretty obvious that they weren't high on him, so I was pretty surprised that they offered him arbitration. They need a utility guy or two on the roster. I don't see a need for Hiura, especially since we got Winker for DH. I'd think that Hiura will be traded away pretty soon, setting up a Spring Training battle between Miller and Toro for the final spot on the bench.

I initially thought that this acquisition could be the end of the speculation of whether we'd go after a third baseman, but I think it could have more effect on Turang. If we acquire a 3B, Urias would probably move to 2B, and Miller / Toro would be the utility guy, allowing for Turang to start the season in AAA. I'd be fine with that. I'd rather see someone like Miller getting sporadic playing time on the bench instead of Turang or Urias.

[LouisEly]

1 hour ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

Come on, everyone, let's get back on topic. Disagreement not only happens, it is encouraged. Just keep it respectful and let's not snipe at one another.

Disagreement on topic is encouraged.

[igor67]

I still assume Huira will be dealt. Are there any moderately expensive relievers with a good track record out there? Free agents might be a tad too expensive, but someone a notch above Boxberger but more expensive might be an attractive swap for both teams.