Brewers acquire Canha

[Jopal78]

48 minutes ago, Thurston Fluff said:

I'd argue these moves show it is a team with a direction. One stated many times over. They're going to ride pitching and defense while getting enough offense to win games and make deadline moves that help the current team without hurting the future. Suddenly picking up a bunch of terrible fielding, good hitting players, giving up a boatload of prospects in the process would have indicated a team without direction. I get that some don't like the approach but that doesn't mean it isn't a planned approach that they're staying with.

Yeah maybe, but Canha and Santana certainly do not make the Brewers stronger against Atlanta or Los Angeles and even in the best light make the Brewers only marginally more likely to win their division.

Really, I think the front office knows that this year’s roster is flawed, yet reached the conclusion that while it’s worth making an investment to improve the roster, they’re only willing to invest enough to make incremental improvements. 
 

I just don’t see much point in adding short term players who most likely don’t change the course of the season this year. If the roster is flawed fix it, or retool for ‘24.
 

 

[Thurston Fluff]

9 minutes ago, Jopal78 said:

Yeah maybe, but Canha and Santana certainly do not make the Brewers stronger against Atlanta or Los Angeles and even in the best light make the Brewers only marginally more likely to win their division.

Really, I think the front office knows that this year’s roster is flawed, yet reached the conclusion that while it’s worth making an investment to improve the roster, their only willing to invest enough to make incremental improvements. 
 

I just don’t see much point in adding short term players who most likely don’t change the course of the season this year. If the roster is flawed fix it, or retool for ‘24.
 

 

There are far too many examples of flawed teams making the playoffs and making a deep run to say minor fixes don't change the course of the season. It also matters what the team acquires in how much of a boost it gives them. A team like the Reds won't get the same boost from acquiring a league average bat just like the Brewers won't get the same boost as the Reds by acquiring a league average starting pitcher. The Brewers may not have made a weakness a strength but they did take a weakness and made it average. Given the weakness was never supposed to be a strength average is good enough to make a run.

[Jopal78]

11 minutes ago, Thurston Fluff said:

There are far too many examples of flawed teams making the playoffs and making a deep run to say minor fixes don't change the course of the season. It also matters what the team acquires in how much of a boost it gives them. A team like the Reds won't get the same boost from acquiring a league average bat just like the Brewers won't get the same boost as the Reds by acquiring a league average starting pitcher. The Brewers may not have made a weakness a strength but they did take a weakness and made it average. Given the weakness was never supposed to be a strength average is good enough to make a run.

I like the sentence about  “how much of a boost it gives them”, that’s my point.
Their offense is terrible (13th out of 15th in the NL in runs scored) A couple of mediocre vets, like Santana and Canha - even hitting on all cylinders for the next 55 games -  probably doesn’t get the Brewers out of the bottom 3 in terms of runs scored. 

[MVP2110]

8 minutes ago, Jopal78 said:

I like the sentence about  “how much of a boost it gives them”, that’s my point.
Their offense is terrible (13th out of 15th in the NL in runs scored) A couple of mediocre vets, like Santana and Canha - even hitting on all cylinders for the next 55 games -  probably doesn’t get the Brewers out of the bottom 3 in terms of runs scored. 

The Brewers 1b this season before the Santana trade had been worth -1.7 WAR, Santana at that point had been worth 1.0 WAR. The same sentiment rings true for Canha at either DH or RF. Winker this year was worth -0.7 offensive WAR, Canha was worth 0.9 offensive WAR. So between Canha & Santana you're looking at about 4 extra wins this year which would sure be nice right now

[brewerfan82]

10 minutes ago, Jopal78 said:

I like the sentence about  “how much of a boost” it gives them, that’s my point.
 

Their offense is terrible (13th out of 15th in the NL n runs scored) A couple of mediocre vets even hitting on all cylinders for the next 55 games probably doesn’t get the Brewers out of the bottom 3 in terms of runs scored. 

Luckily it doesn't matter where their full season stats land, just what they do moving forward. In the past 30 days they've been 8th in the NL in runs scored (and 9th in wRC+). In those same 30 days, their first basemen have been last in the NL with a 45 wRC+, their DH have been 13th in the league with a 57 wRC+, and RF has been 12th in the NL with a 70 wRC+. Adding a couple 90-110 wRC+ players to that mix is going to help shore up some black holes on an already improving offense.

I'm still hoping for one more bat today, but I think they've done a really nice job filling some huge needs without mortgaging the future so far.

[dlk9s]

11 minutes ago, Jopal78 said:

I like the sentence about  “how much of a boost it gives them”, that’s my point.
Their offense is terrible (13th out of 15th in the NL in runs scored) A couple of mediocre vets, like Santana and Canha - even hitting on all cylinders for the next 55 games -  probably doesn’t get the Brewers out of the bottom 3 in terms of runs scored. 

They don't have to get out of the bottom three - they just have to improve from here on out.

Up until a few games ago, the Brewers were in first place, having just dominated the second place team yet again. 11 games over .500 and in first place despite having terrible hitting. Now they've (presumably) upgraded extremely weak spots in the lineup without giving up much of anything.

With the pitching and fielding the Brewers have, even just "ok" hitting gives them a chance. Do I think they've closed the gap on the Braves? Of course not. But they weren't going to, even with a blockbuster trade, and at least as it stands now, they still have all the young guys that we hope will be the stars of the future.

If the trades work as intended (and obviously, who knows - see 2022), the Brewers will absolutely have a shot to make a run in the playoffs if they get there. Outstanding pitching and fielding with improved, even if still below average hitting, won't make the Brewers World Series favorites, but will give them a shot to beat anyone in a series.

I just don't see the point in emptying the farm for, say, Soto, when you can keep all your prospects and not be much worse off in the present.

[Jopal78]

Just now, MVP2110 said:

The Brewers 1b this season before the Santana trade had been worth -1.7 WAR, Santana at that point had been worth 1.0 WAR. An extra 2-3 wins would look real nice right now. The same sentiment rings true for Canha at either DH or RF

Yes, unfortunately they didn’t get these guys in May they got them with 55 games left.

It’s too bad they bungled their roster coming into the season and ended up giving 800 PA’s to a collective of Winker, Turang, Perkins, Voit, Ruf, Singleton, Tapia when the best of them but up a .587 OPS.

[MVP2110]

1 minute ago, Jopal78 said:

Yes, unfortunately they didn’t get these guys in May they got them with 55 games left.

It’s too bad they bungled their roster coming into the season and ended up giving 800 PA’s to a collective of Winker, Turang, Perkins, Voit, Ruf, Singleton, Tapia when the best of them but up a .587 OPS.

Which is sort of the point. Of the guys you listed only Turang at this point projects to get significant ABs. Everyone else is off the roster or in Perkins case lower down the depth chart. So for the next few months the offense shouldn't nearly has many black holes as before

[Fear The Chorizo]

36 minutes ago, Jopal78 said:

Yes, unfortunately they didn’t get these guys in May they got them with 55 games left.

It’s too bad they bungled their roster coming into the season and ended up giving 800 PA’s to a collective of Winker, Turang, Perkins, Voit, Ruf, Singleton, Tapia when the best of them but up a .587 OPS.

Well in May the Brewers were looking up at Santana and the Pirates in the standings, so that trade wasn't happening...and the Mets weren't far enough into the season to realize spending a gazillion dollars over the offseason isn't enough to be a playoff contender this year.

This is the Brewers' MO - try to set up their decent roster headed into the season with enough cheap veteran players that still have some roster flexibility to try and plug holes when anticipated regulars get hurt (Mitchell, Urias, Tellez, Anderson), see where they are in the standings when the calendar gets to July and then try to improve roster weaknesses at the trade deadline without mortgaging their ability to repeat the process next offseason.  There are parts to that approach I don't like, but I also appreciate the Brewers being consistently in the mix for a playoff spot - given the financial disparity MLB operates with, this is what they have to do.

[homer]

1 hour ago, Jopal78 said:

Yeah maybe, but Canha and Santana certainly do not make the Brewers stronger against Atlanta or Los Angeles and even in the best light make the Brewers only marginally more likely to win their division.

Really, I think the front office knows that this year’s roster is flawed, yet reached the conclusion that while it’s worth making an investment to improve the roster, they’re only willing to invest enough to make incremental improvements. 
 

I just don’t see much point in adding short term players who most likely don’t change the course of the season this year. If the roster is flawed fix it, or retool for ‘24.
 

 

If they retooled for 2024 you'd probably complain too....like you did last year when they traded Hader.

[patrickgpe]

Canha will make his debut tonight, taking Wiemer's spot in the lineup according to Counsell. Frelik moving to CF

[CheezWizHed]

2 hours ago, Ron Robinsons Beard said:

Exactly. The Mets were certainly "all in" this offseason. Now they're selling. It can theoretically somewhat improve your chances, but never in the history of baseball has acquiring big names guaranteed success.

Exactly.  Obviously the Brewers are in a good position to win the Central, but not exactly positioned well for the playoffs.  These moves fill some gaps so we could perhaps be the team that gets in the playoffs and get "hot" (or perhaps the Braves go cold?) without a complete mortgage of our future.  

We'll get a chance... maybe not what we want, but we are behind the 8-ball with our offense to begin with.  Winning the WS certainly needs some bats like Adames to bounce back.  You can't trade away to fill every hole we have.

[Jopal78]

23 minutes ago, homer said:

If they retooled for 2024 you'd probably complain too....like you did last year when they traded Hader.

Except that wasn’t a retooling was it, and that’s not a complaint. In fact, that statement proved to be 100% accurate because more than a few people attribute last year’s collapse to the Hader trade and the struggles of the new relievers. 

[Fear The Chorizo]

1 minute ago, Jopal78 said:

Except that wasn’t a retooling was it, and that’s not a complaint. In fact, that statement proved to be 100% accurate because more than a few people attribute last year’s collapse to the Hader trade 

Trading away your closer that is getting pricey and in return obtaining a different MLB rental who can close plus prospects who will either contribute to the Brewers in the future or become trade chips to obtain other MLB help is the definition of retooling.

And the "more than a few" people who attribute last year's "collapse" (which actually started months earlier in the season before Hader was dealt) include you and a few other posters who like being contradictory around self-created strawmen points of view.

[owbc]

1 hour ago, MVP2110 said:

The Brewers 1b this season before the Santana trade had been worth -1.7 WAR, Santana at that point had been worth 1.0 WAR. The same sentiment rings true for Canha at either DH or RF. Winker this year was worth -0.7 offensive WAR, Canha was worth 0.9 offensive WAR. So between Canha & Santana you're looking at about 4 extra wins this year which would sure be nice right now

Exactly, the Brewers were firm buyers and they made massive upgrades to their greatest weaknesses. I'm not sure what else they could have reasonably done. 

By the way, the Mariners just did the exact same thing as the Brewers did last year -- traded away their closer for major league talent in a 'retooling' trade to fill other gaps. 

[Jopal78]

16 minutes ago, Fear The Chorizo said:

Trading away your closer that is getting pricey and in return obtaining a different MLB rental who can close plus prospects who will either contribute to the Brewers in the future or become trade chips to obtain other MLB help is the definition of retooling.

And the "more than a few" people who attribute last year's "collapse" (which actually started months earlier in the season before Hader was dealt) include you and a few other posters who like being contradictory around self-created strawmen points of view.

Guess we can differ on the term “retooling”. First place clubs that trade away the best lefty reliever in the game is very a small group. 
 

Nice try with the straw man reference to obfuscate that what I said a year ago was true. 

[Jopal78]

25 minutes ago, owbc said:

Exactly, the Brewers were firm buyers and they made massive upgrades to their greatest weaknesses. I'm not sure what else they could have reasonably done. 

By the way, the Mariners just did the exact same thing as the Brewers did last year -- traded away their closer for major league talent in a 'retooling' trade to fill other gaps. 

Yes, those Mariners who are 4th in their division and buried in the wild card race. 🙄 

[owbc]

11 minutes ago, Jopal78 said:

Yes, those Mariners who are 4th in their division and buried in the wild card race. 🙄 

Last year the Brewers' decision at the deadline was between trading Hader and demoting him out of an 8th or 9th inning role. He wasn't helping us and the results show that he wouldn't have helped us after August 1. 

[Fear The Chorizo]

1 hour ago, Jopal78 said:

Guess we can differ on the term “retooling”. First place clubs that trade away the best lefty reliever in the game is very a small group. 
 

Nice try with the straw man reference to obfuscate that what I said a year ago was true. 

i think you're referring to your post embedded within this thread (although it's oftentimes difficult to tell)...it states something along the lines of if after sending Hader away via trade last deadline the Brewers' remade bullpen blows some save opportunities and they miss the playoffs, they'll be chumps.  well, the Brewers did blow some save opportunities during the months of August and September without Hader.  The Padres also blew quite a few save opportunities during August and September with Hader and actually spent a good chunk of that stretch run with Hader out of their closer role because of it.  In addition, the Brewers blew multiple save opportunities in June/July 2022 with Hader, oftentimes BECAUSE of Hader.  The Padres didn't make the playoffs last season because of Hader, either.

You can go on believing the Brewers missed the playoffs last season because they traded Hader, I don't care - I'm even sure that makes you feel "100% right"....but that doesn't mean everyone else that disagrees with how you're trying to frame arguments while neglecting to include/acknowledge all kinds of contradictory context (in this instance, starting pitching injuries decimating the 2022 Brewer rotation, Burnes pitching like a mid-rotation starter with the increased workload, and a not-good-enough offense had much more to do with the team playing 0.500 baseball most of the season) is wrong.

[JohnBriggs12]

Based on what we've seen from Canha so far, I'd seriously consider DFAing him when Rowdy returns

[Jopal78]

34 minutes ago, JohnBriggs12 said:

Based on what we've seen from Canha so far, I'd seriously consider DFAing him when Rowdy returns

That would be a bold move given the chances they gave to Norris and Schoop in recent years. But yeah, Canha has been a slice above crappy this year (which is why Mets were essentially giving him away for free, and willing to pay money just get something in the first place). There’s no reason his leash in Milwaukee should be very long. 

[Brewcrew82]

1 hour ago, JohnBriggs12 said:

Based on what we've seen from Canha so far, I'd seriously consider DFAing him when Rowdy returns

He hasn't even been on the team for a week yet. 

[Jopal78]

22 minutes ago, Brewcrew82 said:

He hasn't even been on the team for a week yet. 

With a game and an half over the Reds and Cubs it’s ostensibly 49 game season, how long do you suggest to give him to see if he’s one of their 26 best guys? 
 

(Which I’m not advocating they cut him, rather a question:  a guy who they’re not paying, won’t be there next year, and has kind of been a disappointment this season, how long of a rope do you give someone like that?)

[igor67]

In the abstract I think you have to give him at least another week. The specifics really come down to how the other options are performing. I hope the memory of Schoop makes it easier to move on if need be, sometimes a move just doesn't work and as you correctly identified we don't have a lot invested in keeping him around if there are other players looking like they can hit more.

[Outlander]

He had an extra base hit taken away by McMahon last night but a lot of lazy pop ups thus far. Has not struck out much so maybe some positive regression coming.

Edited to add the below, doesn't give me a lot of confidence going forward: