Counsell to Cubs

[brewers888]

6 minutes ago, MrTPlush said:

He prefers to play for a big market and any team on the coast (notably the west coast) will probably get a lot of preference points too. Chicago is a big market...but I don't know if people really view it as that. So yah...I doubt Chicago has much of a chance.

I expect the Dodgers to pay whatever it takes especially with their extreme need for pitching. Either that or overpay in a trade for Burnes which is what I am hoping for.

[Axman59]

6 hours ago, True Blue Brew Crew said:

I think the more we learn, the less Brewers fans will like what's been happening behind the scenes. I don't know how anyone could deny something significant has changed in the past 2-3 years. The remaining questions are what changed and who is to blame.

Something is going on here that we, the fans, should be very concerned about. Hopefully someone like Ken Rosenthal and Evan Drellich of The Athletic can do some digging...

[Samurai Bucky]

48 minutes ago, Jastro said:

[treego14]

I like the Brewers direction ... Counsell was NOT making this team better.  He was a below-average in-game manager, IMHO..

The players on the field have made this team what it is, period.

I doubt any new manager will make much of a difference.

I think the Brewers should have a player-manager this upcoming season.  I nominate Christian Yelich.  If he is reluctant, have a pitcher, catcher, and one position player be a 3-headed manager.  There will be no ties when it comes to decision making with an odd number in the multi-headed manager position.  Such a scenario could potentially make us better!

Get some good motivational chant music going in the ballpark for a change!

Let our GM, Matt Arnold, continue his brilliance.

Let's get Mark Attanasio to be a thorn in the side of MLB as he loudly voices the unfairness of MLB's payroll structure due to market size differences!  Let him organize a group of small-market team owners and threaten a strike or holdout UNTIL MLB levels the playing field!

Get all these things in place and a World Series Championship season will happen before Bob Uecker retires!

 

[Sixtolezcano]

14 minutes ago, treego14 said:

I like the Brewers direction ... Counsell was NOT making this team better.  He was a below-average in-game manager, IMHO..

The players on the field have made this team what it is, period.

I doubt any new manager will make much of a difference.

I think the Brewers should have a player-manager this upcoming season.  I nominate Christian Yelich.  If he is reluctant, have a pitcher, catcher, and one position player be a 3-headed manager.  There will be no ties when it comes to decision making with an odd number in the multi-headed manager position.  Such a scenario could potentially make us better!

Get some good motivational chant music going in the ballpark for a change!

Let our GM, Matt Arnold, continue his brilliance.

Let's get Mark Attanasio to be a thorn in the side of MLB as he loudly voices the unfairness of MLB's payroll structure due to market size differences!  Let him organize a group of small-market team owners and threaten a strike or holdout UNTIL MLB levels the playing field!

Get all these things in place and a World Series Championship season will happen before Bob Uecker retires!

 

Mark isn’t going to say a word about the unfairness of the MLB’s payroll  structure due to market size differences, as he is not going to bite the hand that feeds him. He is all in with the other owners when he cashes in and sells the Brewers. We are the suckers. not him.

[True Blue Brew Crew]

53 minutes ago, Thurston Fluff said:

Worse still, he seemed to be playing the "I'm doing this to get better pay for all managers" card then back stabbed a fellow manager. It's not cool to talk to an organization behind the back of the person you're negotiating to take the job from.

Thank you for pointing this out. Counsell should definitely be asked about this. He's so principled when it comes to raising the bar for all manager salaries yet he signed on for a job that wasn't even open. Do we know if Ross was gonna be out either way or if he's only out because CC agreed to replace him? That's awfully hypocritical of Counsell to take someone else's job in the name of raising industry salaries 

[wiguy94]

1 minute ago, True Blue Brew Crew said:

Thank you for pointing this out. Counsell should definitely be asked about this. He's so principled when it comes to raising the bar for all manager salaries yet he signed on for a job that wasn't even open. Do we know if Ross was gonna be out either way or if he's only out because CC agreed to replace him? That's awfully hypocritical of Counsell to take someone else's job in the name of raising industry salaries 

Ross definitely was not getting fired until Counsell agreed to take the job. Makes zero sense for the Cubs to decide to fire Ross a month after the season ends when 4 other managerial spots already were filled up.

[SeaBass]

The backstabbing a manager thing, the Cubs were the ones holding the knife. If they weren't running around behind the guy's back looking for an upgrade then CC wouldn't have had that opportunity in the first place. I don't really blame CC for that.

[Samurai Bucky]

Here is the real reason he left 😉

[LouisEly]

1) CC (likely) wanted out

2) CC wanted the most money he could get

3) CC wanted to be close to his family

He got all three.

If there is one underlying thing it is that athletes are very competitive and CC likely felt like the odds were stacked against him winning a WS in MKE.  If, in his mind, he wants to be considered as one of the best managers in the game he may think he needs the hardware to prove it.  He got a taste of it as a player - twice - and may feel like he needs it again to be considered "the best".

[brewmann04]

I wonder how that 1-7 Playoff record will hold up in the Windy City

[owbc]

Having looked over on our sister site to see their opinion...this certainly came as much of a shock to them as it did to us and I their favorite part of it seems to be relishing in our misery. But quite a bit of skepticism about whether it was actually a good idea for the Cubs to do this.

They are expecting a massive increase in payroll to go along with this, but I tend to wonder if part of the rationale from their ownership (who are notoriously cheap) is that Counsell can get them to the playoffs with a lower payroll. So Cubs fans might very well be disappointed with the offseason by the time March comes along. 

[MrTPlush]

Everyone talks about him PHing crummy Winker in Game 2...but don't forget him not PHing for Turang the day prior. One of the TEN WORST offensive players in baseball last year. 

He figured out Turang is garbage in Game 2, but he insisted on using lefty against a RHP (his trusty Vet to boot). Didn't make a ton of logic in a vacuum. He should have gone Perkins/Miller. Both way better players in '23 and similar or better against RHP. An elite manager with a pair of nuts would have actually sent Caratini out there...way better than the others against RHP. I think Winker had the worst splits against RHP of any player on the bench at the time. By using Winker it also required him to use someone else to play 2B. He went defense with Monasterio and then inexplicably the guy somehow took an AB with the season on the line with a guy on base later in the game.

The fact Blake Perkins (better against RHP) and a guy red hot in September didn't manage to hold the bat in any of those situations is amazing. Caratini also never touched the bat either game. Just not acceptable. 

 

Hopefully the next guy doesn't let one of ten worst hitters in baseball take the most pivotal AB of the season.

[homer]

I think you could go through the career of any manager in the history of baseball and cherry-pick several instances where a choice backfired. It's a lot harder to find the instances where a gamble paid off because, well, we don't remember the good stuff as readily as we remember the bad stuff.

[Thurston Fluff]

56 minutes ago, SeaBass said:

The backstabbing a manager thing, the Cubs were the ones holding the knife. If they weren't running around behind the guy's back looking for an upgrade then CC wouldn't have had that opportunity in the first place. I don't really blame CC for that.

The Cubs weren't the ones selling themselves as helping fellow managers. Like I said, if the Cubs came to him someone who was truly doing this on principal would have said come to me when you have an opening. It was Counsell who negotiated for a job that wasn't open. I don't fault him for it. Just for playing it like he's doing it for the good of the managing profession.

 

38 minutes ago, LouisEly said:

1) CC (likely) wanted out

2) CC wanted the most money he could get

3) CC wanted to be close to his family

He got all three.

If there is one underlying thing it is that athletes are very competitive and CC likely felt like the odds were stacked against him winning a WS in MKE.  If, in his mind, he wants to be considered as one of the best managers in the game he may think he needs the hardware to prove it.  He got a taste of it as a player - twice - and may feel like he needs it again to be considered "the best".

One would think managing a team that went to the playoffs in five of the past six years, has one of the better farm systems in the league and some of the best trade chips in baseball to revamp without rebuilding would be enough to think one of the best managers of all time could win here. If he really wants to be viewed as such, then maybe managing a team that has the odds stacked against it would be the place to prove it.

[sveumrules]

43 minutes ago, brewmann04 said:

I wonder how that 1-7 Playoff record will hold up in the Windy City

You keep referencing this 1-7 playoff record, Counsell has a 7-12 playoff record.

[MrTPlush]

4 minutes ago, Thurston Fluff said:

One would think managing a team that went to the playoffs in five of the past six years, has one of the better farm systems in the league and some of the best trade chips in baseball to revamp without rebuilding would be enough to think one of the best managers of all time could win here. If he really wants to be viewed as such, then maybe managing a team that has the odds stacked against it would be the place to prove it.

I mean...come on. I think every Brewers fan on earth, even the most delusionally positive ones, can probably agree the Cubs have a better chance of winning a WS than the Brewers in the near future, long term future, and 100 years from now. They have exponentially more resources and a more attractive market. If we could swap situations with the Cubs for the next 5 years, I can't imagine most Brewers fans wouldn't want that. 

That being said he has had more opportunities than basically any other manager in the last 7 or so years and his teams have been total failure flops. So, it appears he is going to need more than just a good team and a bunch of postseason appearances. 

[True Blue Brew Crew]

25 minutes ago, homer said:

I think you could go through the career of any manager in the history of baseball and cherry-pick several instances where a choice backfired. It's a lot harder to find the instances where a gamble paid off because, well, we don't remember the good stuff as readily as we remember the bad stuff.

Yeah not only that but there's an argument to be made for why Counsell went with Turang there. Down by one, no outs and the bases loaded. You want a contact hitter there with some speed to avoid the 2 worst outcomes, a strikeout or a double play. Mainly you're just looking for the ball to be put in play. Something Turang profiles well at. You also want to keep his glove in the game since it's close and there are still 4 innings in the field left. It didn't work out but you can't nitpick the logic. Perkins just as easily could have struck out. Perkins struck out at a much higher rate than Turang on the season anyway, lol.

Besides, we're really gonna act like not getting Blake Perkins or Victor Caratini an AB in a pivotal moment is some big strike against Counsell? Really?

[TURBO]

26 minutes ago, homer said:

I think you could go through the career of any manager in the history of baseball and cherry-pick several instances where a choice backfired. It's a lot harder to find the instances where a gamble paid off because, well, we don't remember the good stuff as readily as we remember the bad stuff.

Ok, yeah, true, but that doesn't mean we have to excuse it either.

I get it, there are people here that like to take the opposite view for discussion sake, but it really is ok to admit when the Brewers, their manger, their front office, or anyone else screws up.

[MrTPlush]

7 minutes ago, True Blue Brew Crew said:

Yeah not only that but there's an argument to be made for why Counsell went with Turang there. Down by one, no outs and the bases loaded. You want a contact hitter there with some speed to avoid the 2 worst outcomes, a strikeout or a double play. Mainly you're just looking for the ball to be put in play. Something Turang profiles well at. You also want to keep his glove in the game since it's close and there are still 4 innings in the field left. It didn't work out but you can't nitpick the logic. Perkins just as easily could have struck out. Perkins struck out at a much higher rate than Turang on the season anyway, lol.

Besides, we're really gonna act like not getting Blake Perkins or Victor Caratini an AB in a pivotal moment is some big strike against Counsell? Really?

First off, the difference between Victor Cartini and Brice Turang is big. It is like the difference between Mike Trout and Christian Yelich. That is a generalization, but you get the point. Caratini isn't an all-star, but Turang is that bad. Having a pulse is about twice as good as Turang when it comes to hitting.

Calling Turang a contact hitter is a bit of a stretch. 21% isn't bad, but it isn't good either. Caratini was better than that...notably better against RHP at like 2.5% lower. I also don't agree that avoiding a double play should have been a focus. A double play scores a run and ties the game. Then Adames is still up with a guy in scoring position. If that happens, so be it. If he was that concerned with defense, that's classic Counsell playing the long game and playing it safe in the postseason. Probably why Caratini never saw daylight in the postseason. D Backs manager made quite a few bold moves...and what do you know, seemed to work out for him in the end. Defense doesn't do much when you are losing. 

[True Blue Brew Crew]

This team's emphasis on the glove has served them well and has presented itself over and over in tight games. Removing Turang's defense from a close game only half played, as well as him being better at making contact than BOTH Perkins and Caratini is more than enough logic to understand why CC made that choice. Overall, the general idea of pining for Caratini or Perkins is just a little too comical for me to go any further than that.

[Thurston Fluff]

41 minutes ago, MrTPlush said:

I mean...come on. I think every Brewers fan on earth, even the most delusionally positive ones, can probably agree the Cubs have a better chance of winning a WS than the Brewers in the near future, long term future, and 100 years from now. They have exponentially more resources and a more attractive market. If we could swap situations with the Cubs for the next 5 years, I can't imagine most Brewers fans wouldn't want that. 

That being said he has had more opportunities than basically any other manager in the last 7 or so years and his teams have been total failure flops. So, it appears he is going to need more than just a good team and a bunch of postseason appearances. 

If all it took was resources the Cubs would be a dynasty and wouldn't need to pay a record price to get someone capable to manage it. Since the Brewers were in the same division as the Cubs the Cubs went to the playoffs eight times to the Brewers seven. That doesn't sound like an exponentially better chance of winning the world series in the future to me. As for the next five years I'll take the team that actually got to the playoffs four of the last five years as opposed to the team that went once in that span. It doesn't take a delusional fan to think the team that actually gets there more often lately has at least as good a chance as one that made it once.

[homer]

1 hour ago, TURBO said:

Ok, yeah, true, but that doesn't mean we have to excuse it either.

I get it, there are people here that like to take the opposite view for discussion sake, but it really is ok to admit when the Brewers, their manger, their front office, or anyone else screws up.

True. But some people also don't want to celebrate the good things....like at all. 

[Fear The Chorizo]

1 hour ago, sveumrules said:

You keep referencing this 1-7 playoff record, Counsell has a 7-12 playoff record.

How about 1-8 since video game Yelich fouled a ball off his kneecap?

[sveumrules]

8 minutes ago, Fear The Chorizo said:

How about 1-8 since video game Yelich fouled a ball off his kneecap?

That is correct, yes.

The Brewers players, assembled by Stearns/Arnold, paid by Attanassio, and managed by Counsell have lost eight playoff games to three World Series winners and one World Series loser since video game Yelich fouled a ball off his kneecap.