Counsell to Cubs

[RobertCrawley]

11 minutes ago, MrTPlush said:

I don't recall the Mets offer being stated as such...only 'significantly less' than the Cubs offer. Was that still highest paid manager money? Idk...maybe so. Even if it was, considering their financial standing and they probably knew the Brewers would offer at least around that highest paid manager in MLB amount....no, not really aggressive, in my opinion. 

It's reported that the Brewers offered him $5.5 million, which would have made him the highest paid manager in MLB, but Counsellout chose more money and went to the Chicago team.

He also wanted a "new challenge," even though winning a playoff series with the Brewers would have been new as well.

He also wanted to help MLB managers everywhere by raising salaries, and he began this great initiative by getting another manager fired.

[sveumrules]

1 hour ago, BuckyBrewer61 said:

As I've reflected more on this, more than anything I think this has led me to a bit of an sports fanhood existential crisis.  Not that this is anything new, but this move hammers it home more than any before it.

 

We really are just rooting for a jersey.  No one that has actually worn that jersey cares about the Brewers as much as we do.  Or at all.  Yes they are highly competitive people.  Yes they want to succeed and win any at bat, game, championship they can.  But they don't actually care about the Milwaukee Brewers like we do. 

 

Not even the kid who grew up here, who was given the opportunity to lead his hometown team to their first championship, cares to stick around to keep trying to win one for his city (and he has been given many quality teams in which to work with...it's not like he's been working with the 2002 roster for the past 9 years)

 

And I don't blame them.  I get it.  Good for Craig and every athlete out there for maximizing their earning potential, doing what makes them happy, etc.

 

But it does make me feel a bit foolish as a fan to care so much about these teams, when those wearing the jersey are simply passing through town.

Well put, I've pretty much emotionally dis-attached myself from sports entirely at this point. More out of logical necessity than anything else.

Outside of the stretch run and playoff games, I get more emotionally charged watching the various iterations of MTV's The Challenge every week than I do the Packers, Bucks or Brewers.

Following the minor leagues might be the biggest consistent thrill left for me in sports. Some of my favorite baseball moments this summer were watching Chourio ABs on GameDay on my phone, then sliding over to the game thread to post CHOO-CHOO-CHOURIO...OH-OH. 

[BruisedCrew]

My interpretation of Counsell’s “new challenge” comment seems to be similar to what others have said. He has dealt with the challenge of producing winning teams in a small market but probably feels like he has reached a ceiling.

Now he wants to try the challenge of managing a team with deep pockets that can afford to acquire the kind of players who have a better chance to win a World Series. 

For many, Counsell’s legacy is that he has squeezed good results out of the Brewers but can’t win in the playoffs. Now he might have a chance to build a legacy that will get him mentioned alongside managers like Bruce Bochy and Dusty Baker. 
 

Going to the Cubs made sense because he can keep his home in Whitefish Bay at least until his daughters finish high school. It will be a lot easier for his family to spend time with him during the season than if his team was in New York or somewhere further. 

[daboss]

Aloha Brewer fans, this will probably shock you all as Monday was for me, a Cub fan. This move has not sat well with me. Let me explain:

I understand that "small market" teams like the A's, your Brewers, Rays and so forth are afforded certain "advantages" to equal out the "playing field." Be it if I agree with this system or not, on the flip side there are Chicago writers saying that "finally" the Cubs FO, specifically Hoyer is acting like a "big market" executive with this move to get Craig C.

We can debate who is the "better" manager. I have no problem saying Craig C is because of his years of experience. Ross never managed and imho was brought in to manage a declining Cub core then into a rebuild.

I also don't fault Craig C for taking the money, which to me is a lot for a manager but it's a free country.

Where I have a problem is how my Cubs FO treated Ross, for good or bad, after publicly praising him for the rollercoaster of a season, when it looked like they were out of it, then July August they made a tremendous push and were contenders. I've had my differences with Ross and voiced them with other Cub fans but I don't hold him responsible or fully for players going cold in the last month of the season. He dealt with all kinds of issues, mainly health and underperformers to get them back into the race. I expected him back in Chicago for 2024 and Craig C in NYC or staying in Milwaukee.

Thus, staying in the "dark" til Craig finished his "tenure" so Jed could talk to him privately, back channel, then swoop in and hire him at the same time firing Ross doesn't make me happy. If Craig took the season off in 2024, my Cubs let Ross finish out his contract and then Jed talks to Craig, fine. I'm okay with that and still fans on both sides would be vocal about it but it's above board as they say. But the way this played out and I'm told to accept it, is how business in the MLB is conducted, well I don't like it.

Thank you in advance for allowing a Cub fan to come here and let you know that not all of us are happy about this as many of us believe in principles, honor, integrity. In a demented way, forgive me Cubs, I hope Milwaukee hires Ross and takes your Brewers to the WS. Okay, I'm going to therapy now, lol! I wish your organization well and in hiring another manager. Mahalo!

[Royhobbs]

First, happy to be on the forum.  I have enjoyed the discourse.

Second, I know that people are probably sick of all of the arm chair opinions on what has been wrong with the Brewers.  I also don't think that it is fair to scrutinize every decision a manager makes.  Craig has made a bunch of good in game decisions and a bunch of bad ones.

The thing that frustrated me the most has been the hitter's approaches at the plate.  It has been consistent through the Craig era.  He clearly has preached the long ball at the expense of situational hitting.  How many times do we see Brewer hitters flailing at pitches outside of the zone in zero strike counts?  How many times do we see hitters roll over pitches on the outer half of the plate trying to knock the ball into the seats?  Our ability to manufacture runs with RISP is gross.  I know Craig is an analytics guy.  I know that the analytics say its easier to score a run on one hit than it is three.  So fine, rely on the long ball. But Craig's insistence on the analytics without any ability to adapt to the situation is the reason why he is an average manager at best - and, honestly, why he doesn't win in the playoffs.  Anybody can read the stats and go with what the numbers tell you to do.  I am happy to see him go.   Keep the current pitching coaches and give me Kevin Seitzer in a heartbeat.

Thanks for having me everyone...

[wiguy94]

15 hours ago, Team Canada said:

I disagree, at last partially. I think largely he's being honest, but most telling is the comment about "needing a new challenge." I hope someone asks a question at some point about why winning a WS for Milwaukee wasn't challenging enough, but the implication is he doesn't think he can. He's taken this team as far as he can go, and since he doesn't see the situation likely to change in the next couple years, he's out.

Which is a lame excuse considering the Dbacks just made the WS this season.

[Team Canada]

Welcome to the board, both of you!

[daboss]

5 minutes ago, Team Canada said:

Welcome to the board, both of you!

Aloha Team Canada, thank you. I was surprised by RoyHobbs comments about Craig C. In that I always thought Milwaukee was good at manufacturing runs, playing small ball as part of the mix. With my Cubs I was so frustrated with swing or miss approach, no plate discipline. Only relying on the long ball. For the first month of 2023, it was refreshing to see Cub players stealing and running bases, hitting sac flies, moving runners. Don't get me wrong, a homer is nice but so are well placed singles, doubles, getting walks, sac flies. Hope your Brewers are competitive this next season. I like having a strong central division, it makes the other teams better. I do wish we played more against our division like before. Mahalo!

[markedman5]

The needing a new challenge stuff (seems to me) is something you say when you really mean ……” I wanted the most money I could get ……and to stay as close to home as possible in getting it. “
 

Brewers offered him more than any other manager was currently making…….and they did so in one of the smallest markets. That wasn’t good enough…….i saw a quote from an article where they quoted “somebody close to Counsell” as saying ….” What I don’t understand is why didn’t the Brewers just pay him?”
 

So……if they paid him 8 million a year then he wouldn’t have needed the new challenge? He wouldn’t have cared about being with a big market franchise? He would have signed the contract and talked about how much he loved the Brewers and never wanted to leave.

Of course the Brewers would have had to be negotiating against themselves. 

When your revenue is below middle of the pack I’m not sure it makes sense to be resetting the managerial market……..

[markedman5]

Craig……better get those answers ready……because you left those softball press conferences in Milwaukee 

 

[Fear The Chorizo]

34 minutes ago, BruisedCrew said:

My interpretation of Counsell’s “new challenge” comment seems to be similar to what others have said. He has dealt with the challenge of producing winning teams in a small market but probably feels like he has reached a ceiling.

Now he wants to try the challenge of managing a team with deep pockets that can afford to acquire the kind of players who have a better chance to win a World Series. 

For many, Counsell’s legacy is that he has squeezed good results out of the Brewers but can’t win in the playoffs. Now he might have a chance to build a legacy that will get him mentioned alongside managers like Bruce Bochy and Dusty Baker. 
 

Going to the Cubs made sense because he can keep his home in Whitefish Bay at least until his daughters finish high school. It will be a lot easier for his family to spend time with him during the season than if his team was in New York or somewhere further. 

I simply don't buy the notion that the "ceiling" for the Brewers is to meekly bow out of the playoffs every year because they can't afford to field a roster full of bloated veteran contracts over $200M.  And there's also more to it than playoff randomness - the Brewers have built rosters prioritizing defensive versatility and run prevention, and how those rosters are managed over the course of a regular season doesn't appear to line up well with playoff success.  That falls on both a team's front office and manager - particularly with CC and how he did carry some sway with how the 40 man rosters have been put together and managed over the years.  

From an onfield perspective, I'm ok with CC no longer managing the Brewers even if it means the Brewers take a step back this season - I think it was time for both parties to move on in order for the Brewers to take a different organizational approach to try and win a title instead of treading water.  I also don't expect the Brewers to lose 20 fewer games just because CC isn't in the dugout anymore - W/L record depends more on the quality of the roster they'll be working with.

And, I won't hold it against CC personally to go manage the team that threw an insane contract at him, even if it's the Cubs.  However, I'll also have no problem holding him unnecessarily more accountable for them failing to win WS championships because they're paying him like he can find ways to consistently win in October when his onfield playoff results are anything but.  As a big market club, the Cubs don't need the best manager in the history of baseball based on what they're paying him to make the playoffs consistently.  If there aren't WS parades on the north side in  the next couple of seasons, CC should get more heat than he deserves. 

The Brewers have built their recent window off dominant bullpens with plenty of depth to navigate through 162 games - CC gets credit for adept bullpen management, but he's also been given a ton of bullpen talent to work with.  One way to really handcuff that organizational strategy is to be poor at developing pitching, not identifying journeyman relievers capable of big years with small mechanical/pitch selection tweaks, and instead throwing a pile of free agent dollars and prospect capital to build a better MLB bullpen.  If you get that typical reliever volatility with high-priced relievers or a key injury, you then get stuck with them and cheaper internal options with talent still aren't on your 40 man.  Essentially, this likely describes what the Cubs are about to try and do over this offseason.

 

[markedman5]

Rob Thomson thinks he’s being paid fairly……..

 

[Fear The Chorizo]

4 minutes ago, markedman5 said:

Rob Thomson thinks he’s being paid fairly……..

 

I bet he does...his current deal is up after next year, right?  Just take CC's contract and tack on a few million extra bucks annually due to the Phillies being in the WS and LCS the last couple season.  

[tmwiese55]

50 minutes ago, daboss said:

Aloha Brewer fans, this will probably shock you all as Monday was for me, a Cub fan. This move has not sat well with me. Let me explain:

I understand that "small market" teams like the A's, your Brewers, Rays and so forth are afforded certain "advantages" to equal out the "playing field." Be it if I agree with this system or not, on the flip side there are Chicago writers saying that "finally" the Cubs FO, specifically Hoyer is acting like a "big market" executive with this move to get Craig C.

We can debate who is the "better" manager. I have no problem saying Craig C is because of his years of experience. Ross never managed and imho was brought in to manage a declining Cub core then into a rebuild.

I also don't fault Craig C for taking the money, which to me is a lot for a manager but it's a free country.

Where I have a problem is how my Cubs FO treated Ross, for good or bad, after publicly praising him for the rollercoaster of a season, when it looked like they were out of it, then July August they made a tremendous push and were contenders. I've had my differences with Ross and voiced them with other Cub fans but I don't hold him responsible or fully for players going cold in the last month of the season. He dealt with all kinds of issues, mainly health and underperformers to get them back into the race. I expected him back in Chicago for 2024 and Craig C in NYC or staying in Milwaukee.

Thus, staying in the "dark" til Craig finished his "tenure" so Jed could talk to him privately, back channel, then swoop in and hire him at the same time firing Ross doesn't make me happy. If Craig took the season off in 2024, my Cubs let Ross finish out his contract and then Jed talks to Craig, fine. I'm okay with that and still fans on both sides would be vocal about it but it's above board as they say. But the way this played out and I'm told to accept it, is how business in the MLB is conducted, well I don't like it.

Thank you in advance for allowing a Cub fan to come here and let you know that not all of us are happy about this as many of us believe in principles, honor, integrity. In a demented way, forgive me Cubs, I hope Milwaukee hires Ross and takes your Brewers to the WS. Okay, I'm going to therapy now, lol! I wish your organization well and in hiring another manager. Mahalo!

Welcome and good post overall.

However, did you just say as a big market fan you think its unfair the advantages that TB and MKE get in the structure of the system?   That has to be a typo doesn't it?

[daboss]

14 minutes ago, tmwiese55 said:

Welcome and good post overall.

However, did you just say as a big market fan you think its unfair the advantages that TB and MKE get in the structure of the system?   That has to be a typo doesn't it?

Aloha tm, the point I was trying to make was what the Chicago and other large "market" teams were saying about small vs larger market teams. And that putting all of that aside be it if one is for it or not, the structure that is, I was trying to focus strictly on what happened with Ross' firing and Craig C's hiring. I am a fan of the game. Was with it through college, have friends with various organizations, including the Oakland A's where I am (they are about to leave). I also have folks with the Giants. So I understand a little about the dynamics of the different markets. But again, I was trying to look only at what happened with Ross. BTW if Ross let's say were the more accomplished manager and he became a "free agent" and your Brewers through private back channel communications hired him and fired Craig C, I'd be just as passionate as I am now. I don't like conducting business this way. I don't care what the excuse is just to hire someone. And to be clear I'm not upset at Craig C, but with my Cub's FO for offering the job in the first place. Take care now. Mahalo!

[markedman5]

 

[markedman5]

 

[torts]

Something different, like hire his bench coach

[AKCheesehead]

1 hour ago, daboss said:

Aloha Brewer fans, this will probably shock you all as Monday was for me, a Cub fan. This move has not sat well with me. Let me explain:

I understand that "small market" teams like the A's, your Brewers, Rays and so forth are afforded certain "advantages" to equal out the "playing field." Be it if I agree with this system or not, on the flip side there are Chicago writers saying that "finally" the Cubs FO, specifically Hoyer is acting like a "big market" executive with this move to get Craig C.

We can debate who is the "better" manager. I have no problem saying Craig C is because of his years of experience. Ross never managed and imho was brought in to manage a declining Cub core then into a rebuild.

I also don't fault Craig C for taking the money, which to me is a lot for a manager but it's a free country.

Where I have a problem is how my Cubs FO treated Ross, for good or bad, after publicly praising him for the rollercoaster of a season, when it looked like they were out of it, then July August they made a tremendous push and were contenders. I've had my differences with Ross and voiced them with other Cub fans but I don't hold him responsible or fully for players going cold in the last month of the season. He dealt with all kinds of issues, mainly health and underperformers to get them back into the race. I expected him back in Chicago for 2024 and Craig C in NYC or staying in Milwaukee.

Thus, staying in the "dark" til Craig finished his "tenure" so Jed could talk to him privately, back channel, then swoop in and hire him at the same time firing Ross doesn't make me happy. If Craig took the season off in 2024, my Cubs let Ross finish out his contract and then Jed talks to Craig, fine. I'm okay with that and still fans on both sides would be vocal about it but it's above board as they say. But the way this played out and I'm told to accept it, is how business in the MLB is conducted, well I don't like it.

Thank you in advance for allowing a Cub fan to come here and let you know that not all of us are happy about this as many of us believe in principles, honor, integrity. In a demented way, forgive me Cubs, I hope Milwaukee hires Ross and takes your Brewers to the WS. Okay, I'm going to therapy now, lol! I wish your organization well and in hiring another manager. Mahalo!

I get it.  If I was a cub fan I would not be happy that they canned Ross either. 

[daboss]

7 minutes ago, AKCheesehead said:

I get it.  If I was a cub fan I would not be happy that they canned Ross either. 

Aloha AK, have to let you know, I've had many a disagreement with Ross decisions, bp management, lineups and so forth. As I mentioned, if Craig C took the next year off and the Cubs FO said no extension, I'd be alright with them contacting Craig. I just think practice wise, this doesn't look good and even if Ross isn't my favorite manager, he's a person too. Take care now! Mahalo!

[tmwiese55]

2 hours ago, daboss said:

Aloha tm, the point I was trying to make was what the Chicago and other large "market" teams were saying about small vs larger market teams. And that putting all of that aside be it if one is for it or not, the structure that is, I was trying to focus strictly on what happened with Ross' firing and Craig C's hiring. I am a fan of the game. Was with it through college, have friends with various organizations, including the Oakland A's where I am (they are about to leave). I also have folks with the Giants. So I understand a little about the dynamics of the different markets. But again, I was trying to look only at what happened with Ross. BTW if Ross let's say were the more accomplished manager and he became a "free agent" and your Brewers through private back channel communications hired him and fired Craig C, I'd be just as passionate as I am now. I don't like conducting business this way. I don't care what the excuse is just to hire someone. And to be clear I'm not upset at Craig C, but with my Cub's FO for offering the job in the first place. Take care now. Mahalo!

Yea it's dirty as heck what they did there. No doubt about that.  And now CC can't be too surprised when they do it to him in about 3.5 years too.

I was getting at a different topic of how its even possible for big markets to complain about the systemic advantages the small markets get.  I mean, cmon.   Is that really a thing? The big markets think its bs how unfair of an advantage the small markets have?   Big markets think the system is rigged against them?

[Axman59]

2 hours ago, daboss said:

Aloha Brewer fans, this will probably shock you all as Monday was for me, a Cub fan. This move has not sat well with me. Let me explain:

I understand that "small market" teams like the A's, your Brewers, Rays and so forth are afforded certain "advantages" to equal out the "playing field." Be it if I agree with this system or not, on the flip side there are Chicago writers saying that "finally" the Cubs FO, specifically Hoyer is acting like a "big market" executive with this move to get Craig C.

We can debate who is the "better" manager. I have no problem saying Craig C is because of his years of experience. Ross never managed and imho was brought in to manage a declining Cub core then into a rebuild.

I also don't fault Craig C for taking the money, which to me is a lot for a manager but it's a free country.

Where I have a problem is how my Cubs FO treated Ross, for good or bad, after publicly praising him for the rollercoaster of a season, when it looked like they were out of it, then July August they made a tremendous push and were contenders. I've had my differences with Ross and voiced them with other Cub fans but I don't hold him responsible or fully for players going cold in the last month of the season. He dealt with all kinds of issues, mainly health and underperformers to get them back into the race. I expected him back in Chicago for 2024 and Craig C in NYC or staying in Milwaukee.

Thus, staying in the "dark" til Craig finished his "tenure" so Jed could talk to him privately, back channel, then swoop in and hire him at the same time firing Ross doesn't make me happy. If Craig took the season off in 2024, my Cubs let Ross finish out his contract and then Jed talks to Craig, fine. I'm okay with that and still fans on both sides would be vocal about it but it's above board as they say. But the way this played out and I'm told to accept it, is how business in the MLB is conducted, well I don't like it.

Thank you in advance for allowing a Cub fan to come here and let you know that not all of us are happy about this as many of us believe in principles, honor, integrity. In a demented way, forgive me Cubs, I hope Milwaukee hires Ross and takes your Brewers to the WS. Okay, I'm going to therapy now, lol! I wish your organization well and in hiring another manager. Mahalo!

The Cubs did Ross dirty. I fully agree with that.

And I think CC has blood on his hands as well. I don't condemn CC for taking the money, but I no longer think he's a good guy.

[LouisEly]

5 hours ago, BuckyBrewer61 said:

We really are just rooting for a jersey.  No one that has actually worn that jersey cares about the Brewers as much as we do.  Or at all.  Yes they are highly competitive people.  Yes they want to succeed and win any at bat, game, championship they can.  But they don't actually care about the Milwaukee Brewers like we do. 

Most of them, yes, but not all:

 

 

[tmwiese55]

Forgot to add this earlier after reading the comment here about rooting for jerseys.  Not sure if the OP knew it but this was on a Seinfeld episode  probably around 30 years ago already. 

 

[daboss]

54 minutes ago, tmwiese55 said:

Yea it's dirty as heck what they did there. No doubt about that.  And now CC can't be too surprised when they do it to him in about 3.5 years too.

I was getting at a different topic of how its even possible for big markets to complain about the systemic advantages the small markets get.  I mean, cmon.   Is that really a thing? The big markets think its bs how unfair of an advantage the small markets?   Big markets think the system is rigged against them?

Aloha tm, the articles I were reading on Monday brought up issues between small vs large market teams. I didn't think it was relevant to the discussion about "swooping" in and hiring Craig C once he was officially no longer employed. I'll find it because the author's point was that with all the "advantages" "small" market teams have and the Cubs never acting like a "larger" market team, this transaction showed they, the Cubs are finally acting like a "big" organization. For me, I don't care about small or big, principles, character and integrity are important. So, I feel for Ross and Cub fans as well as the Craig and Brewer fans current situation. All I know is that many I've spoken with or articles I've read, including not from Chicago are saying how amazing this deal is, no one saw it coming. Let's tell you how Hoyer kept it quiet, etc. I personally don't find it amazing and think it gives baseball a bad name. As I said previously, had Craig taken the year off, be with family then come back next year and Chicago doesn't extend Ross and interviews Craig... that's okay with me I can roll with it and that's for any managerial candidate. But right now we're told, the FO had to pounce on this once in a lifetime chance. I don't buy it. Good luck to your Brewers. Mahalo!