Orioles Acquire Corbin Burnes for INF Joey Ortiz, LHP DL Hall and 2024 Competitive Balance Pick

[sveumrules]

1 hour ago, brewers888 said:

The original Hader trade was terrible for the Brewers 

Good thing the guy that made it works in NY now then.

[edfunderburk]

1 hour ago, Thurston Fluff said:

 

The 2018 Brewers got within one game of the World Series with Wade Miley as the number two in the rotation.

He was six years younger & not as injury prone 

[Fear The Chorizo]

3 minutes ago, edfunderburk said:

He was six years younger & not as injury prone 

His acquisition that season was also widely panned by brewer fans

[edfunderburk]

Just now, Fear The Chorizo said:

His acquisition that season was also widely panned by brewer fans

I love Miley & I’m glad we re-signed him for 2024. I hope he can stay healthy & give us 25+ starts & possibly 150 innings. But he is older (age 37) & fragile. 

[Thurston Fluff]

20 minutes ago, edfunderburk said:

He was six years younger & not as injury prone 

He was also coming off a 5.61 ERA in 2017 which was an improvement over his 2016 campaign. Not to mention he played a grand total of 16 games in 2018 vs the 23 he had last season. Top of the rotation pitching isn't necessary to get to the playoffs. To suggest otherwise is to ignore one of the best seasons in team history.

[young guns]

2 hours ago, BruisedCrew said:

Cubs' Shot at Division Title Skyrocket After Trade (msn.com)

This site thinks it was a great deal...for the Cubs.

But all they said was burnes good.  Burnes no more pitch for brewers. That good for Cubs.

It didn't even mention the prospects at all, let alone say they were bad value or anything like that.

[BruisedCrew]

9 minutes ago, young guns said:

But all they said was burnes good.  Burnes no more pitch for brewers. That good for Cubs.

It didn't even mention the prospects at all, let alone say they were bad value or anything like that.

Lighten up everybody.

Someone posted a few pages back that Brewers fans were the only ones who thought this was a bad trade for the Brewers so I was amused when I saw this one on a sidebar as I was doing something else. 
 

I didn’t post that because of its insightful analysis. 

[TURBO]

1 hour ago, Ron Robinsons Beard said:

Why is the emphasis here, though, on Oakland making a bad deal, instead of the Brewers making a good one? I get that your crazy troll schtick is to crap on everything the Brewers do, but this is over the top, even for you.

I think his point is that the Hader deal in itself probably wasn't good, and that it took a desperate Oakland team to make that deal end up on the positive side, which in the long run, it did!

I get what he is saying, but then again, I read his posts for what they are, and I don't automatically think the guy is trolling.

[TURBO]

I really wish people would stop acting like that 2018 rotation, as crappy as it was, can happen again, but just with a new batch of crappy pitchers.  That just isn't going to happen again, especially with our current offense.

No chance in hell we can get that lucky again.  The current rotation isn't going to take us the the world series, and is probably a long shot to get us to the playoffs, especially since our offense is totally unproven and full of young guys.

If all those young guys hit like we need them to, and give us a chance, is this rotation going to get us what we want?  It will take something pretty special to happen with our roster as it stands, for us to come even close to what happened in 2018.

Just stop acting like every time we put together a 2018 type rotation, the end results will be the same.  It isn't going to happen that way, it just isn't.

 

[TURBO]

I'm sitting back and waiting to see what else is done with this roster.  We add another bat that is better than what we have now, and a decent actual #2 starting pitcher (via trade or FA signing), then we'll see what happens.

[KeithStone53151]

13 hours ago, Brewcrew82 said:

Yeah, because playoff teams haven't chosen to go with veterans over prospects before in a playoff chase....

Their preferred infield (and the one they featured in the postseason) was Urias at 3B, Henderson at SS, and Westburg at 2B. Mateo off the bench. That's the definition of being blocked my man.

What a bizarre narrative you're trying to spin that because Ortiz wasn't immediately installed as a starter in their infield the Orioles viewed him as a bust. 

I'll also add, at the end of the day this is my opinion. I have a strong opinion in this case, and if I'm wrong I'll own it. I was similarly furious about the yelich trade at the time, in reality that trade might be an all time great trade. At this time, I've made my opinion very very clear.

[homer]

12 minutes ago, TURBO said:

I really wish people would stop acting like that 2018 rotation, as crappy as it was, can happen again, but just with a new batch of crappy pitchers.  That just isn't going to happen again, especially with our current offense.

No chance in hell we can get that lucky again.  The current rotation isn't going to take us the the world series, and is probably a long shot to get us to the playoffs, especially since our offense is totally unproven and full of young guys.

If all those young guys hit like we need them to, and give us a chance, is this rotation going to get us what we want?  It will take something pretty special to happen with our roster as it stands, for us to come even close to what happened in 2018.

Just stop acting like every time we put together a 2018 type rotation, the end results will be the same.  It isn't going to happen that way, it just isn't.

 

But the 2018 rotation wasn't crappy. 

[brewers888]

2 hours ago, Ron Robinsons Beard said:

Why is the emphasis here, though, on Oakland making a bad deal, instead of the Brewers making a good one? I get that your crazy troll schtick is to crap on everything the Brewers do, but this is over the top, even for you.

Yes Arnold made a great trade bailing Stearns out of what was a very bad trade. Stearns gets no credit for the Contreras deal and if it wasn't for Arnold as well as Oakland being stupid the Hader deal would have gone down as a total dud.

[brewers888]

1 hour ago, sveumrules said:

Good thing the guy that made it works in NY now then.

Thats all well and good but the fact remains that the original deal was terrible.

[brewers888]

1 hour ago, edfunderburk said:

He was six years younger & not as injury prone 

The Brewers lineup was also much better then and Yelich was an MVP not the mediocre hitter that he is today.

[wibadgers23]

18 minutes ago, TURBO said:

I'm sitting back and waiting to see what else is done with this roster.  We add another bat that is better than what we have now, and a decent actual #2 starting pitcher (via trade or FA signing), then we'll see what happens.

We certainly have the resources to add a starter and a big bat, both financially and via trade.

[brewers888]

20 minutes ago, TURBO said:

I'm sitting back and waiting to see what else is done with this roster.  We add another bat that is better than what we have now, and a decent actual #2 starting pitcher (via trade or FA signing), then we'll see what happens.

I think Devin is the next one to go which would be the right move. With two years of control left this is the time to get the most in return and not have to settle for less like we did with Burnes. 

[brewers888]

Trevor Bauer is the guy to get. He can be a top of the rotation starter and he will almost certainly come cheaper than his talent level would suggest. The guy was blackmailed and deserves a chance to pitch in MLB again and we should be the team to give him that opportunity.

[Brewcrew82]

We’re unequivocally declaring the original Hader deal to be a bust when Robert Gasser, who we have 6+ years of control of and who is one of the top LHP prospects in baseball, hasn’t even made his MLB debut?

Yeesh…..

[Brewcrew82]

5 hours ago, KeithStone53151 said:

Lol, narrative I'm trying to spin. They had a whole season to try Ortiz, nowhere did I say they had to immediately install him as a starter, nor did they need to wait until the stretch run. It should have been obvious by end of May that mateo wasn't it. His pattern was similar to Owen Miller last season. Miller was good in May, Mateo was good in April. Miller was effectively benched by July and the Brewers win in a pennant race. Your argument regarding urias would be better if he was an effective hitter. Him blocking a prospect is comparable to Hernan Perez blocking a prospect.

This is the second time you've moved the goal post and tried to change my argument. If the Orioles thought ortiz was a better option than Mr 607 and a utility guy, they had ample opportunity to do so and chose not to.

Urias has put up a 7.2 WAR the last three seasons....Not comparable to Hernan Perez whatsoever lol

I'm not changing your argument or moving the goalposts. You have literally said that Ortiz is a bust who can't hit MLB pitching because he's 25 and the Orioles didn't put him in their infield. 

[homer]

46 minutes ago, brewers888 said:

Thats all well and good but the fact remains that the original deal was terrible.

The point wasn't to judge a single trade but to point out that the story of roster building and asset management doesn't end with a single tranasaction. Sometimes you need to get from A to B in order to get to C.

[LouisEly]

15 hours ago, liveforoctober said:

Trade Willy for some pitching. Sign Bauer. Easy division win.

Wouldn't it be something if the Brewers took Burnes' $15M salary and signed Bauer with that? 

Replacing Burnes with someone who was arguably almost as good as Burnes in 2020/2021 AND getting Hall and Ortiz?

Matt Arnold, executive of the decade.

[Thurston Fluff]

1 hour ago, TURBO said:

I really wish people would stop acting like that 2018 rotation, as crappy as it was, can happen again, but just with a new batch of crappy pitchers.  That just isn't going to happen again, especially with our current offense.

No chance in hell we can get that lucky again.  The current rotation isn't going to take us the the world series, and is probably a long shot to get us to the playoffs, especially since our offense is totally unproven and full of young guys.

If all those young guys hit like we need them to, and give us a chance, is this rotation going to get us what we want?  It will take something pretty special to happen with our roster as it stands, for us to come even close to what happened in 2018.

Just stop acting like every time we put together a 2018 type rotation, the end results will be the same.  It isn't going to happen that way, it just isn't.

 

Building a strawman doesn't make your argument any stronger. Nor is declarative statements of what just won't happen long before the season starts. No one said or acted like it would happen every time. What I did say is we appear to be trying to build this season in a similar way to one that worked in the past. Following a strategy that worked in the past has merit.

[Fear The Chorizo]

1 hour ago, TURBO said:

I really wish people would stop acting like that 2018 rotation, as crappy as it was, can happen again, but just with a new batch of crappy pitchers.  That just isn't going to happen again, especially with our current offense.

No chance in hell we can get that lucky again.  The current rotation isn't going to take us the the world series, and is probably a long shot to get us to the playoffs, especially since our offense is totally unproven and full of young guys.

If all those young guys hit like we need them to, and give us a chance, is this rotation going to get us what we want?  It will take something pretty special to happen with our roster as it stands, for us to come even close to what happened in 2018.

Just stop acting like every time we put together a 2018 type rotation, the end results will be the same.  It isn't going to happen that way, it just isn't.

 

What the Brewers appear to be getting ready to do in 2024 (i.e., turning over a bunch of rotation spots to prospects/young starters) is pretty much the exact same thing they did in 2019 when Burnes/Woodruff/Peralta first saw a bunch of starts together in the rotation after their 2018 playoff run with a makeshift rotation.  at least that was the plan, until injury (Peralta) and performance (Burnes) had two of them out of that rotation In 2019 before it every really got rolling, Burnes was probably the worst starter in baseball and actually wound up back in AAA before being bumped back up in the pen during the wildcard push late in the season.  Freddy had shoulder issues by late April that season and came back largely in a bullpen role when he did get healthier, and he really pitched pretty poorly that year.

And last season's Brewer starting rotation was far from the strength of the roster - it was the bullpen, then the defense, then starting pitching and hitting was the weakest link for most of the year.  This offseason, the bullpen has either stayed the same or got even better/deeper, two key starters moved on due to injury (Woody) or trade/contract (Burnes).  Lauer was a complete nonfactor and Woodruff missed a ton of the 2023 season - people look at the names on the 40 man compared to what they had headed into last season and assume their rotation will be worse, without realizing two of the key starters in 2023 didn't provide enough innings or positive production to even factor into the overall success of a team that won its division easily.

I'm not singling you or anyone in particular out, but to me it seems like some posters upset about the return for Burnes still act like he's coming off his his 2021 season (no doubt top 5  starter in the game), and not his last two seasons (#20-30 starter in the game range).  1 year of performance for a guy that will win a Cy Young award for you is worth more than what the Brewers got from the Orioles via trade, however 1 year for a guy who "might" be a Cy Young contender for you if he pitches better than he has the past couple seasons is much more in line for what the Brewers got in terms of prospect/mlb ready player with upside/draft capital.  And even if some people disagree with that assessment, what they got is alot more than a package for Burnes at the deadline this year would've netted.  

The debate IMO may be if the current Brewers' roster with Burnes was good enough to roll the dice on getting more value overall for the franchise by a "run it back" rotation approach headlined by Burnes and Peralta, and trying to win a WS with him and then getting nothing in return but a QO pick in the 2025 draft, or if trading him this offseason was the right move and giving the organization flexibility to backfill his roster spot with cheaper young talent knowing there will be bumps in the road with the rotation that need to be navigated to get that part of the roster in better shape longterm.

[Fear The Chorizo]

16 minutes ago, LouisEly said:

Wouldn't it be something if the Brewers took Burnes' $15M salary and signed Bauer with that? 

Replacing Burnes with someone who was arguably almost as good as Burnes in 2020/2021 AND getting Hall and Ortiz?

Matt Arnold, executive of the decade.

The irony also expands with the fact that had Bauer been able to pitch the entire 2021 season in LA, Burnes probably doesn't have a Cy Young in his trophy case at all.  Bauer won it in 2020 with that short COVID season as a Red and his numbers in 2021 were right there again.