When does Arnold start to receive some criticism

[liveforoctober]

OP has only posted 4 times on these boards in the last 2 months. Funny how that works. We will see him again the next time we lose 3 games in a row. 

[umphrey]

Just noticed Shane Smith had 4 starts in a row of giving up 5+ runs and ERA is pushing mid 4s. The Arnold truthers can breath a sigh of relief.

[CheezWizHed]

So I started thinking about this topic in a different way recently.  What if Arnold is getting too much credit?

A few years back, our pitching results started to turn around.... then we lost Derek Johnson and we thought the progress would come crashing down... but it didn't.  Improvement continued under Chris Hook. 

Nov 2023, CC leaves the Brewers for the ScRubs and we thought the winning culture in the clubhouse would erode under Murphy... but the winning ways continue.

Oct 2023 (and really all the way back to 2021 when he retired in place), we lost David Sterns to the NYM.  David made some excellent trades, FA signings, and general improvement to the drafting process.  We thought that all would chase him out the door to deep pocket Yankee-wannabees. But Arnold took over and not much really changed.

Now, I'm not saying that either the men that left, nor their replacements haven't had an impact on the Brewer's success, but perhaps the organization as a whole is well run and structured in a manner to precipitate their success?   The "it takes a village" type mentality, because the ability to identify talent, develop (or fix) that talent, and put them in a position to succeed is pretty amazing(especially with failed pitching prospects from other teams). 

If you've ever worked in a company that was poorly run and moved to a company that was setup for success, perhaps you've experienced a touch of this? 

Just a thought. 

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

On 7/8/2025 at 9:24 PM, Brewcrew82 said:

I mean, this is a certain kind of special. Does this dude dare show his face and admit he was completely and utterly wrong. Or does he simply wait it out (per usual) for the next losing streak or (heaven forbid) postseason exit in the most desperate of attempts to save face?

What i'm wondering is when the OP is going to be seen for what he truly is: a troll? Being contrarian once in awhile is fine. Playing devil's advocate on occasion can even be healthy. But no one is that narcissistic not on purpose. 

[Samurai Bucky]

I don't know who David Sampson is, but he seems to know what it takes to be a GM.  It sounds like Arnold listens to the right people.

"The hardest job an executive has... is in listening to the right people when they are telling you the evaluation of a player."

"GMs trade for players they've never heard of or seen."

 

[BlazingGunz]

He’s the former president of the Marlins for a long time prior to the current ownership.  He has an interesting YouTube channel for sure.  Some off the wall stuff but different insights from the mainstream. 

[Brian]

9 hours ago, BlazingGunz said:

He’s the former president of the Marlins for a long time prior to the current ownership.  He has an interesting YouTube channel for sure.  Some off the wall stuff but different insights from the mainstream. 

 

[dlk9s]

ESPN has three Brewers in the top 4 for NL Rookie of the Year based on their "AXE" rating: Durbin (1st), Patrick (2nd and he's in AAA!), Collins (4th).

And, of course, there's Miz, who hasn't played enough to get ranked yet.

[Team Canada]

4 hours ago, Brian said:

 

You didn't add any content of your own - were you trying to post something?

[Brian]

1 hour ago, Team Canada said:

You didn't add any content of your own - were you trying to post something?

Yes I was, that we always seem to be the marginal, disregarded team of the MLB by having a smaller payroll/market, yet always in the hunt.  Maybe that works in out favor but it still annoys me. 

[markedman5]

You really have to hand it to Mark…….when he got the sense that Stearns might eventually move on……he not only retains Arnold but makes him essentially the GM in waiting…….promising to promote him if/when Stearns left.

 

[BrewerFan]

On 7/15/2025 at 12:47 PM, CheezWizHed said:

So I started thinking about this topic in a different way recently.  What if Arnold is getting too much credit?

A few years back, our pitching results started to turn around.... then we lost Derek Johnson and we thought the progress would come crashing down... but it didn't.  Improvement continued under Chris Hook. 

Nov 2023, CC leaves the Brewers for the ScRubs and we thought the winning culture in the clubhouse would erode under Murphy... but the winning ways continue.

Oct 2023 (and really all the way back to 2021 when he retired in place), we lost David Sterns to the NYM.  David made some excellent trades, FA signings, and general improvement to the drafting process.  We thought that all would chase him out the door to deep pocket Yankee-wannabees. But Arnold took over and not much really changed.

Now, I'm not saying that either the men that left, nor their replacements haven't had an impact on the Brewer's success, but perhaps the organization as a whole is well run and structured in a manner to precipitate their success?   The "it takes a village" type mentality, because the ability to identify talent, develop (or fix) that talent, and put them in a position to succeed is pretty amazing(especially with failed pitching prospects from other teams). 

If you've ever worked in a company that was poorly run and moved to a company that was setup for success, perhaps you've experienced a touch of this? 

Just a thought. 

Well... I think everything you said is more than just a thought; I think it's a given. I don't think you can develop pitchers at the lower levels, bring in veteran pitchers and have them pitch to a 1.3 lower ERA(whatever that stat was that said pitchers who come from other organizations do MUCH better in Milwaukee than anywhere else, someone posted it on here a while back)- with just a coach or two. Chris Hook isn't doing all that. And then you have guys like Hardin, Kuehner, Yoho, so many pitchers who were afterthoughts that we've built up and at the very least have value right now to help the big league club by acquiring layers or actually getting outs. 

You have a whole Latin American Department that's finding guys like Chourio, Made, Pena, Uribe(maybe just lucky there), Quero...and it's not like Salas, who everyone knew was a stud and the Pads spent their entire IFA budget on. 

So, from 14-15 year olds they're identifying to... 23 year old SEC relievers who are turning into starters to big arms that are ineffective with other teams like Megill or Mears, I'm looking at a flaw in the organization right now and the ONLY one I can see is... they don't have as much money. 

But it starts with the guy in charge, Attanasio. Also, I do think we're in a better position under Arnold than Stearns, but Stearns set up a lot of the infrastructure that is paying dividends now. So... maybe that just goes back to Attanasio as well as he said 'we need facilities in AZ, DR...' and ownership built them. 

 

[BrewerFan]

On 7/15/2025 at 1:10 PM, Ron Robinsons Beard said:

What i'm wondering is when the OP is going to be seen for what he truly is: a troll? Being contrarian once in awhile is fine. Playing devil's advocate on occasion can even be healthy. But no one is that narcissistic not on purpose. 

Yeah, at least Sixto keeps posting on here and keeps it negative, but... brewer888 is just gone. 

[SF70]

6 hours ago, BrewerFan said:

Well... I think everything you said is more than just a thought; I think it's a given. I don't think you can develop pitchers at the lower levels, bring in veteran pitchers, and have them pitch to a 1.3 lower ERA(whatever that stat was that said pitchers who come from other organizations do MUCH better in Milwaukee than anywhere else, someone posted it on here a while back). 

You have a whole Latin American Department that's finding guys like Chourio, Made, Pena, Uribe(maybe just lucky there), Quero...and it's not like Salas, who everyone knew was a stud and the Pads spent their entire IFA budget on. 

So, from 14-15 year olds they're identifying to... 23 year old SEC relievers who are turning into starters to big arms that are ineffective with other teams like Megill or Mears, I'm looking at a flaw in the organization right now and the ONLY one I can see is... they don't have as much money. 

But it starts with the guy in charge, Attanasio. Also, I do think we're in a better position under Arnold than Stearns, but Stearns set up a lot of the infrastructure that is paying dividends now. So... maybe that just goes back to Attanasio as well as he said 'we need facilities in AZ, DR...' and ownership built them. 

 

Absolutely, credit has to go to both Attanasio/Stearns as well. 

The most important attributes for a small-market owner are:

• Spend similarly to other like revenue teams.

• Hire the right people to run the team.

• Listen to those people.

Attanasio has nailed all 3 and because of that gets an A+ as the owner of this franchise.

 

Stearns created the initial vision for this team which included the massive rebuild of the team’s infrastructure, which was as bad as any in baseball. His first hire was Matt Arnold, who has helped him every step of the way in building what could be the most efficient infrastructure in the game.

 

Arnold has taken Stearns initial vision and kicked it up multiple notches imo, thanks to his scouting background. He has changed the team’s amateur draft strategy, with Tod Johnson’s help and the team has had back to back, among the best in baseball, draft-classes, with the latest, potentially as good or better than the last 2 classes. On the international side they had maybe the best IFA class (2024) since baseball went to pool money a little more than a decade ago. Currently, the team rivals any team in the game as far as prospect-procurement is concerned.

Then we have the team’s pitching development taking another leap since Arnold took over. This team, imo, has never had the depth of solid or better pitching, system-wide, that they have right now. The pitching gains made just this year alone are extraordinary, and have set the team up for an easy 5 year run of success, again in my opinion, unparalleled in this franchise’s history.

 

Attanasio A+ owner. Stearns A+ GM. Arnold A+ GM and currently the best in baseball, bar none, which is why I stated early on in this thread, he deserves a 10 year extension, and that wouldn’t even be long enough.

[BrewerFan]

2 hours ago, SF70 said:

Absolutely, credit has to go to both Attanasio/Stearns as well. 

The most important attributes for a small-market owner are:

• Spend similarly to other like revenue teams.

• Hire the right people to run the team.

• Listen to those people.

Attanasio has nailed all 3 and because of that gets an A+ as the owner of this franchise.

 

Stearns created the initial vision for this team which included the massive rebuild of the team’s infrastructure, which was as bad as any in baseball. His first hire was Matt Arnold, who has helped him every step of the way in building what could be the most efficient infrastructure in the game.

 

Arnold has taken Stearns initial vision and kicked it up multiple notches imo, thanks to his scouting background. He has changed the team’s amateur draft strategy, with Tod Johnson’s help and the team has had back to back, among the best in baseball, draft-classes, with the latest, potentially as good or better than the last 2 classes. On the international side they had maybe the best IFA class (2024) since baseball went to pool money a little more than a decade ago. Currently, the team rivals any team in the game as far as prospect-procurement is concerned.

Then we have the team’s pitching development taking another leap since Arnold took over. This team, imo, has never had the depth of solid or better pitching, system-wide, that they have right now. The pitching gains made just this year alone are extraordinary, and have set the team up for an easy 5 year run of success, again in my opinion, unparalleled in this franchise’s history.

 

Attanasio A+ owner. Stearns A+ GM. Arnold A+ GM and currently the best in baseball, bar none, which is why I stated early on in this thread, he deserves a 10 year extension, and that wouldn’t even be long enough.

We were absolutely terrible.

I just think back from...the late 90s when I was in school ordering those Baseball America prospect handbooks and... we were always pinning our hopes on the draft and the draft alone. Mark Rogers or JM Gold whoever it was. Neugebauer, Sheets and Gold were all prospects at once(maybe...Gold may have flamed out by then). 

But that was it. Very little international FAs. Even up until we paid 3M or whatever it was for Gilbert Lara. It cost us the next 2 years, our bonus pools. We could sign players, but a crude analogy would be like how you can only spend 150K on players drafted Rd 11-20. You were capped to a low number.

That was...2016 maybe 2017. So even Stearns didn't really get to see the fruits of his labor. 

Had he stuck around...would he be doing better than Arnold, worse? I dont' know and I don't care.

 

The only guy I harbor ill-will toward(and not genuine ill-will, just...not a fan anymore) is CC. I don't expect you to sacrifice your once chance to make money to stay in Milwaukee. I DO think being in the Brewers clubhouse at 9, having the team willing to make you the highest paid manager, not giving them a chance to match, I think he just quit on the team. Didn't think we could win. Wanted to go to a place they'd trade for Kyle Tucker. and that's what's going to make running them down when they have the best record in the league all the sweeter. 

 

 

One correction, when I said "

10 hours ago, BrewerFan said:

I don't think you can develop pitchers at the lower levels, bring in veteran pitchers, and have them pitch to a 1.3 lower ERA

I'd meant to say, you can't do that by luck. It's different people working with these kids.

It's an organizational philosophy and it's remarkable. 

 

I may just be repeating something I saw in this thread, but I just saw it, but someone said GMs make trades and they've never seen the player play. They TRUST their scouts. Well...to give up the 33rd pick, Yophery and a solid young(ish) pitcher, you have to trust your guys you can get Priester right. 

 

It's an ENTIRE organization all pulling in the right direction and trusting the people they work with. Oh, and one more thing;

2 hours ago, SF70 said:

Absolutely, credit has to go to both Attanasio/Stearns as well.

 

2 hours ago, SF70 said:

• Hire the right people to run the team.

• Listen to those people.

Remember Jeff Suppan? Kyle Lohse(cost us a 1st rd pick?) Braden Looper?

Mark Attanasio wanted to win badly and he paid to acquire those guys and they were not good. He's since stayed out of it.

Even the Hader trade that SOO many blamed on Attanasio, he didn't know about that trade until the two teams agreed to it and just needed approval from ownership and  I don't think he liked it. I think it was one of those Steinbrenner, "you better know what you're doing here," type moves.

He caught the heat...now we've got a catcher who is one of the most valuable at the position in the league. Even in the midst of a down year. 

 

So he's become a better owner. And AGAIN, he said there wasn't a trade the Brewers couldn't make when the Soto trade took place. there wasn't a player available they couldn't make room for, there wasn't a PACKAGE of players they couldn't afford and he was talking about the following year as well. 

 

Even this year, I was never really worried about this team. I never thought we'd be sitting here, a game away from sweeping the Dodgers, but I thought they could contend for the division in May. I just felt like they'd get back into it. Maybe foolishly so, blind faith, but the front office has engendered that type of confidence. 

[SF70]

Counsell thought he was smarter than the FO. He lacked the vision to see the true greatness of Stearns/Arnold and what the infrastructure rebuild meant to the future of the team. 

He thought instead he could go south with an inferior FO, that he could more or less control, and would be able to coach $200M+ payroll teams to a WS.

He better win one this season, because the Brewers future is fantastically better than the Cubs, and it’s going to be embarrassing to have his mentor win with half his payroll.

[Playing Catch]

I've been saying it for years, and we see it all over the sports landscape...

Bad ownership = Bad teams
Good ownership = Good teams

Attanasio is a good owner because the proof is in the pudding.

We hear it in his interviews. He wants to win. He values the fan experience. He spends time talking about hiring "good" people. Valuing "good" people, at every level of the organization, from front office staff to the players and their families. He values their contributions outside of their impact on the field.

Now I'm sure there are stories behind the scenes where some individuals have felt differently, but from my vantage-point, he is not a stereotypical greedy multi-millionaire, he's a guy who values people and communities who happens to be a multi-millionaire. Those people DO exist.

[Team Canada]

At this point, while I obviously didn't like CC leaving for the Cubs, I don't even care anymore. I think this team is different because of Murph's personality, and regardless of what you think about bullpen management or anything else, he was a great choice to take an incredibly young team and drive them to success.

[umphrey]

Let's be real, CC left for dump trucks full of cash, nothing more, nothing less

[Samurai Bucky]

1 hour ago, Team Canada said:

At this point, while I obviously didn't like CC leaving for the Cubs, I don't even care anymore. I think this team is different because of Murph's personality, and regardless of what you think about bullpen management or anything else, he was a great choice to take an incredibly young team and drive them to success.

This is something that seems to be overlooked.  The clubhouse seems to be stronger, more cohesive, and more in tune.  This culture is set up by the organization.  How many stories do we hear about free agents coming in and feeling welcome (sans Jessie Winker 😉)?  I truly believe that Bob Uecker was one of the cornerstones of that culture.  Although he is gone, the culture can (and must) continue.

That day-to-day attitude is modelled primarily by the manager -- Murphy.  He has gone through some things during his career that gives him a different perspective on the team.  Hence -- he makes sure the culture is good day to day.  Knowing this, however, we would be having a much different conversation if the Brewers were losing... but they aren't.

When Counsell put Winker in during his last game, I think it might have been to give Winker a chance.  Winker didn't produce, but here was a chance that he could.  However, it might have been Counsell giving the middle finger to the organization.  I'm not sure.

When we talk about trades, etc., remember that the cohesiveness of the clubhouse is a very important coefficient.  That is not something that can be measured by Statcast (I think).

[gregmag]

I love people’s points here on the “it takes a village“ theme. I was thinking about this the other night, and I think the Brewers’ success with continuity of leadership reflects the next level of small market strategy. The first level is figuring out that for the cost of one or two player upgrades, you can instead hire a bunch of really useful front office people. The next level is making the infrastructure solid enough that continued success doesn’t depend on finding the perfect person, or a particular type of perfect person, every time someone moves on.

[BrewerFan]

On 7/20/2025 at 9:29 AM, umphrey said:

Let's be real, CC left for dump trucks full of cash, nothing more, nothing less

I don't think that's all. If that was all, he'd have given the Brewers a chance to match. They were already at...5.5 I believe. He got 7.5. Attanasio was upset he didn't get a chance to match. I think he wanted the money obviously, but I also think he thought it'd be easier in Chicago. If you can spend another 80M a year on payroll and get a top 5-6 hitter in the game... it is easier. And that's fine for ANYONE else who hadn't been preaching how Milwaukee is home since his playing days. 

If it was just cash, he'd have at least let the Brewers match.

I'm more than happy with Murphy, I'm a bit unsure about Weeks or if the plan is still for Weeks to take over in a couple years(though I loved Rickie as a player, the intensity and toughness). But I still don't like how CC.

[Playing Catch]

Maybe Counsell was eager for a fresh challenge, and saw an opportunity to do his ol' college coach a solid by moving on (and getting paid)?

Doesn't mean I won't still boo him😛

[Fear The Chorizo]

With the 24th ranked payroll, Arnold has the Brewers 100 games into the season with MLB's best record, and honestly has many options for players not on the current 26-man active roster either rehabbing or sitting in AAA that could help add to the club down the stretch (Gasser, Cortes, Henderson, Patrick, Peguero, Yoho, Frelick, Mitchell, Quero, Hoskins, etc/etc).  I think SS/3B is probably the spot if the Brewers want to make a splash at the deadline where they should go - but both Durbin and Ortiz have been a big part of the recent surge the Brewers are on, too.  They've also got a deep enough farm system  where overpaying a bit for a key bat actually makes sense at the deadline to help sort out future 40 man roster decisions the next few offseasons.

To answer the title of this thread, perhaps Arnold should start getting criticism from Brewer fans when he gets poached by a different large market team after winning consecutive MLB executive of the year awards.

[Brian]

After yesterdays win Milwaukee Brewers manager Pat Murphy had this to say, "it's only July 21st, emphasizing the ongoing nature of the baseball season and the need for continued effort."