Hader

[monty57]

Show of hands. Who cheered on Roger Dorn in Major League when he said he wouldn’t get in front of a hard grounder because he could get hurt and it would hurt his contract negotiations?

Who laughed when the coach peed on his contract?

[AKCheesehead]

1 hour ago, Brewcrew82 said:

It’s a Brewers discussion forum, and this clip came out yesterday. First time he publicly acknowledged why he refused to pitch outside of the 9th, and he blamed the Brewers.

The thing is, his situation would have been the same with any team (assuming he would have been a relief pitcher, of course) so his beef should have been with the system.  Now, one interesting thought: is Hader's skill set singular enough where over more time as the lockdown fireman he could have influenced change to the arbitration valuation?  I suppose probably not.  But anybody who watched saw how valuable he was. 

[Oxy]

2 minutes ago, AKCheesehead said:

The thing is, his situation would have been the same with any team (assuming he would have been a relief pitcher, of course) so his beef should have been with the system.  Now, one interesting thought: is Hader's skill set singular enough where over more time as the lockdown fireman he could have influenced change to the arbitration valuation?  I suppose probably not.  But anybody who watched saw how valuable he was. 

If the Brewers would have offered him the same amount as Edwin Diaz got his first Arby year, he would have signed AND been amenable to pitch more than just the 9th to wrack up saves and more arby money.  It would have cost a few hundred grand if I recall.  I'm pretty sure Stearns would go back and do that now rather than go thru the arby process and drama of the aftermath.

[SeaBass]

3 hours ago, monty57 said:

I had a longer answer, but it's not worth arguing. 

You'd choose to be a "me first" guy who says "sorry boss, I'm not doing the work." I've worked with people with that attitude, and I'd be happy if I never had to do it again, because I have to end up picking up their slack while they're off blaming the system.

Give me the guys who see the work and bust their butts to get it done.

Projecting your 9 to 5 work values on a pro athlete is both irrational and irrelevant.

You're seriously upset because he prefers to pitch one 3 out inning. C'mon. It's a team sport, laying all that blame on one person is unfair. If it were common for all closers to pitch multiple innings this wouldn't be an issue but it is not common. It's very nearly always one self contained 3 out inning every time.

I just think this is classic fan envy of the rich athlete. Josh Hader had an opportunity to earn generational wealth, meaning it doesn't only affect him it affects his kid's, their kid's and so on.

It's real easy to take pot shots at these guys from the cheap seats when you have zero stake in the game other than your fandom. Yeah, in his shoes I wouldn't care what anyone else thought either. It's a baseball game, it's entertainment. It's the same thing as watching a movie or a TV show, or reading a book, except the team competition concept and home city/state create an environment where people can form a natural rooting interest.

I'll repeat, Hader did what he was paid to do and he was extremely valuable doing it. That is a fact and it is indisputable whether you agree with the way he chose to ply his trade or not. It wasn't a secret to the Brewers how he preferred to be used, it wasn't a secret to Padres when they traded for him and it wasn't a secret to the Astros when they signed him as a free agent. Heck, now that he's finally signed that big contract it's possible he eases the restriction since he is now set for life whether he gets injured or not.

That's the other thing, he was protecting himself from the risk of unnecessary injury. He wasn't lazy, it wasn't that he didn't want his team to win or didn't care about the team or its fans. He happened to be a player with a very specialized job and whether folks like it or not that job valued a very specific stat that simply requires one to get, at maximum, the last 3 outs of a game while maintaining the lead.

If he had been a starter this would have never been an issue. If he wasn't in the top 3 to 5 players in the entire league at this very specific role it wouldn't have been an issue. But he was and he was made to recognize that due at least partly to an arbitration hearing where his employer tried to play down his value to suppress his earnings and in doing so unwittingly pigeon holed themselves into using him in exactly the way they argued was the most valuable for that role.

[wallus]

I remember Rickie Weeks getting a lot of crap for not being willing to switch positions during the season in a contract year.

What Hader did is more of a "me" move than that one.

[markedman5]

“That ain't Chuckie's game. Chuckie hacks on 2-0."

 

[Fear The Chorizo]

Hader was drafted out of high school and wasn't a big ticket bonus baby - even with that, he had to spend parts of 6 seasons logging about 550 IP working his way up through the minors before he wound up in Milwaukee as a reliever.  I don't blame Hader for a second wanting to try and maximize his arbitration value chasing saves, and then doing what he could to preserve his health after 11+ seasons of pitching professionally when he was at the doorstep of his one shot at a huge payday in free agency approaching 30 yrs old as a high leverage late inning reliever.  That being said, it's not the Brewers he's upset with/bashing - it's the arbitration system.

Doubt he'll discuss/admit it, but I think his wife's pregnancy complications early in that 2022 season put alot about his baseball career and priorities for him and his family into a different perspective than the whole "aw shucks, I'll do whatever the team needs me to do" mentality.

 

[monty57]

1 hour ago, SeaBass said:

Projecting your 9 to 5 work values on a pro athlete is both irrational and irrelevant.

 

I’ve never heard the argument of “unlike normal jobs, sports doesn’t require hard work and a willingness to do what it takes to win.” Interesting take. 

1 hour ago, SeaBass said:

You're seriously upset because he prefers to pitch one 3 out inning. C'mon. It's a team sport, laying all that blame on one person is unfair. If it were common for all closers to pitch multiple innings this wouldn't be an issue but it is not common. It's very nearly always one self contained 3 out inning every time.

 

I’m not upset, but the point isn’t that he “prefers to pitch one 3 out inning,” it’s that he refused to pitch more than one inning, no matter the situation. As you said, it’s a team sport, and he’s not playing for the team or his teammates, he’s playing for a bigger contract. 
 

1 hour ago, SeaBass said:

I just think this is classic fan envy of the rich athlete. Josh Hader had an opportunity to earn generational wealth, meaning it doesn't only affect him it affects his kid's, their kid's and so on.

 

I have no problem with players getting paid, there’s plenty of money in MLB for that. Many/most athletes who have elite skills in their position haven’t come out and said that they wouldn’t do what the team asked them to do to win if they thought it might affect their paycheck. I doubt many ever will, as most say they’ll do whatever it takes to win. Those guys still manage to get paid a lot of money. 
 

 

1 hour ago, SeaBass said:

I'll repeat, Hader did what he was paid to do and he was extremely valuable doing it. That is a fact and it is indisputable whether you agree with the way he chose to ply his trade or not. It wasn't a secret to the Brewers how he preferred to be used, it wasn't a secret to Padres when they traded for him and it wasn't a secret to the Astros when they signed him as a free agent. Heck, now that he's finally signed that big contract it's possible he eases the restriction since he is now set for life whether he gets injured or not.

 

It wasn’t a secret to the Brewers, and it wasn’t a secret to the fans that the Brewers didn’t like it. Announcers, both local and national mentioned it a lot. It’s also no secret that the Padres’ strategy of amassing highly talented “me first” players completely bombed. Heck, now that he’s signed with the Astros and their new GM who seems to be eschewing their long-term winning strategy, he can ride with that team as it looks for one last hurrah before fading into mediocrity. 

 

 

1 hour ago, SeaBass said:

.That's the other thing, he was protecting himself from the risk of unnecessary injury. He wasn't lazy, it wasn't that he didn't want his team to win or didn't care about the team or its fans. He happened to be a player with a very specialized job and whether folks like it or not that job valued a very specific stat that simply requires one to get, at maximum, the last 3 outs of a game while maintaining the lead.

 

So if a guy refused to run out grounders because it would decrease the chance of pulling a muscle, and running out grounders won’t help his stats for arby, that’s alright? Maybe an OF who stops running at the warning track so he doesn’t hurt himself by hitting the wall? I already mentioned Roger Dorn, who I thought was a funny example of a guy who wouldn’t risk injury because of contract concerns until his catcher came to his house and said “if you ever tank a game again, I’ll cut your nuts off and shove them down your throat.” I’d have to guess there are players in real life who feel this way about “me first” teammates. 
 

As to the “want his team to win,” he made it clear that if the team thought their best chance of winning was putting him in for a four-out save, he wouldn’t do it. That’s been my point all along. Finally, there is no maximum of three outs for a save. I think that may have just been a typo on your part, but if not, there are plenty of saves with more than three outs. 
 

[Oxy]

17 minutes ago, monty57 said:

I’ve never heard the argument of “unlike normal jobs, sports doesn’t require hard work and a willingness to do what it takes to win.” Interesting take. 

I’m not upset, but the point isn’t that he “prefers to pitch one 3 out inning,” it’s that he refused to pitch more than one inning, no matter the situation. As you said, it’s a team sport, and he’s not playing for the team or his teammates, he’s playing for a bigger contract. 
 

I have no problem with players getting paid, there’s plenty of money in MLB for that. Many/most athletes who have elite skills in their position haven’t come out and said that they wouldn’t do what the team asked them to do to win if they thought it might affect their paycheck. I doubt many ever will, as most say they’ll do whatever it takes to win. Those guys still manage to get paid a lot of money. 
 

 

It wasn’t a secret to the Brewers, and it wasn’t a secret to the fans that the Brewers didn’t like it. Announcers, both local and national mentioned it a lot. It’s also no secret that the Padres’ strategy of amassing highly talented “me first” players completely bombed. Heck, now that he’s signed with the Astros and their new GM who seems to be eschewing their long-term winning strategy, he can ride with that team as it looks for one last hurrah before fading into mediocrity. 

 

 

So if a guy refused to run out grounders because it would decrease the chance of pulling a muscle, and running out grounders won’t help his stats for arby, that’s alright? Maybe an OF who stops running at the warning track so he doesn’t hurt himself by hitting the wall? I already mentioned Roger Dorn, who I thought was a funny example of a guy who wouldn’t risk injury because of contract concerns until his catcher came to his house and said “if you ever tank a game again, I’ll cut your nuts off and shove them down your throat.” I’d have to guess there are players in real life who feel this way about “me first” teammates. 
 

As to the “want his team to win,” he made it clear that if the team thought their best chance of winning was putting him in for a four-out save, he wouldn’t do it. That’s been my point all along. Finally, there is no maximum of three outs for a save. I think that may have just been a typo on your part, but if not, there are plenty of saves with more than three outs. 
 

Where is the line?  It is commonly thought that any NFL quarterback who refuses to slide is basically an idiot.  Why is not diving into the wall any different?

[Thurston Fluff]

It won't happen because teams just don't do it, but I'm curious if he'd be willing to go multiple innings in non-save situation now that he got his payday. I do think the Brewers can't tell him his value is in being used one way then tell an arbiter another and expect him to be ok with it.

[jerichoholicninja]

I understand his reasoning but it's still incredibly selfish. I'd be curious to know how his coaches and teammates feel about it because it certainly doesn't make him very endearing to fans. To me this isn't any different than your star short stop saying he's not going to dive for a ground ball because he can't use diving stops as a statistic to get a bigger contract and he could get hurt doing it. 

[sveumrules]

29 minutes ago, jerichoholicninja said:

I'd be curious to know how his coaches and teammates feel about it because it certainly doesn't make him very endearing to fans.

I’d imagine his teammates especially are far more understanding than the fans.

They live the business side of baseball everyday and are far more familiar with the actual real life stakes, we just observe and comment.

Either way, it came out that Hader had one of the cleanest health reports of any FA pitcher ever, and he got a record setting contract, and the Brewers never really lost a beat when he moved from fireman to closer man, and now we have Contreras, Payamps, and Gasser to show for it all…so I’d say it turned out pretty ok for all involved parties.

[eddiemathews]

On 2/9/2024 at 8:43 AM, Brock Beauchamp said:

This is the key to it right here. I can't fault Hader in the slightest bit. The system is set up so that a guy who is making under a million bucks goes into an arb system that tells him helping the team isn't valuable. At that point, who can blame him for protecting his own career so that he has a better chance of getting a nine-digit payday?

Fix the arbitration system, it's absolute garbage.

Absolutely. My main problem with Hader's comment...probably my only problem...is making it sound like the Brewers are the only team that use the process to their advantage. That's absurd. They all do.

[Sixtolezcano]

On 2/9/2024 at 2:24 PM, SeaBass said:

Yet the Brewers still got an absolute steal of a deal in that 596% raise. Will Smith earned a 3 year $40M contract coming off an All Star season that was a nice season but came nowhere close to the dominance Josh Hader put up.

Instead if he blows out his arm it's sayonara, better be frugal with that $4 million you earned that was at least 90% below what your actual performance was worth. Everyone take a long look in Brandon Woodruff's direction.

So yeah, I'm right back to "Sorry boss, I'm not pitching more than 3 outs in closing situations from here on out."

What does this even mean? He still did exactly what he was paid to do. I guess it wasn't bad for MLB either, look what they paid him after all his "selfish behavior." Gimme a break.

After signing a mega- contract with the Astro what do you think would happen if Joe Espada put Hader in to pitch the 8th and 9th innings in a regular season game and Hader would refuse to pitch? Would the Astros have every right to suspend without pay? Would Hader have any way or say in the matter without any compensation? Questions to ponder.

[TURBO]

1 hour ago, Sixtolezcano said:

After signing a mega- contract with the Astro what do you think would happen if Joe Espada put Hader in to pitch the 8th and 9th innings in a regular season game and Hader would refuse to pitch? Would the Astros have every right to suspend without pay? Would Hader have any way or say in the matter without any compensation? Questions to ponder.

I bet that situation occurred during contract talks.  I would think the Astros know of his comments in the past addressing the situation, you can probably be pretty sure this was discussed before the Astros contract was signed.

[eddiemathews]

On 2/9/2024 at 12:10 AM, AdvantageSchneider said:

I don't think it's that cut and dried in that I assume innings pitched has some value in arbitration, just that saves are worth that much more, I assume.  

His first two full years in the league he had 81 and 75 innings pitched.  Since then he's never had more than 58.  

How much in baseball is there where a winning player does something that they don't get paid for? There used to be a lot more of it, going in hard to break up a double play.  Nobody gets paid to do that but that helped win games.  Sacrifice bunts.  Nobody does that anymore either but nobody got paid for doing that.  In the game today it's probably stuff like hitting the cut off man, taking the extra base, taking a pitch (Chuckie hacks on 2-0).  Winning players make those plays even though that doesn't increase their arby figure or their free agent contract.

That San Diego team had a boatload of talent and they didn't win jack squat.  Team leaders with attitudes like Hader, Machado and Tatis Jr might explain why they underachieved.

 

Grumpy old man rant over.

Brewers offered him a raise. He wanted a bigger raise. Still ended up with a substantial raise.

[StearnsFTW]

On 2/9/2024 at 6:46 PM, Oxy said:

If the Brewers would have offered him the same amount as Edwin Diaz got his first Arby year, he would have signed AND been amenable to pitch more than just the 9th to wrack up saves and more arby money.  It would have cost a few hundred grand if I recall.  I'm pretty sure Stearns would go back and do that now rather than go thru the arby process and drama of the aftermath.

I think this is wildly unlikely. 

[LouisEly]

On 2/9/2024 at 9:11 AM, Brock Beauchamp said:

But you hit the nail on the head in a roundabout way. Teams value the stuff you listed *very highly* and track it down to minutia.

The problem is that there is a difference between what teams value and what arbitrators value.

Until those are more in sync, the system is not going to work for everyone.

[torts]

Don't care, not a brewer.  Girl bye

[OldSchoolSnapper]

Can't pay relievers $100m then get upset when they make self preservation decisions to get their $100m, especially when they are a) the best and b) listened to their team say saves are what are matters to save a few bucks on their arbitration contract. 

I don't see anything wrong with what he did or said. It all comes back to the fact that this league is broken when most teams have to do what the Brewers do and Houstons of the league can do whatever because they simply just can. If anything I appreciate his candidness. 

Both sides protected their best interests. The league is terribly structured. That's all there is to it. 

[stalton]

4 hours ago, OldSchoolSnapper said:

Can't pay relievers $100m then get upset when they make self preservation decisions to get their $100m, especially when they are a) the best and b) listened to their team say saves are what are matters to save a few bucks on their arbitration contract. 

I don't see anything wrong with what he did or said. It all comes back to the fact that this league is broken when most teams have to do what the Brewers do and Houstons of the league can do whatever because they simply just can. If anything I appreciate his candidness. 

Both sides protected their best interests. The league is terribly structured. That's all there is to it. 

I've been trying to put my opinion into a coherent statement and it's this 100%

[SeaBass]

On 2/9/2024 at 10:29 PM, monty57 said:

I’ve never heard the argument of “unlike normal jobs, sports doesn’t require hard work and a willingness to do what it takes to win.” Interesting take.

If your style is to put words into the mouths of people you disagree with by all means go for it, just admit that's what you're doing.

The average person is not accumulating generational wealth in their 9 to 5 job. I am a 9 to 5er, my job is important to me to earn a living but it's not going to make my family financially secure for the next 50 to 100 years or longer.

On 2/9/2024 at 10:29 PM, monty57 said:

I’m not upset, but the point isn’t that he “prefers to pitch one 3 out inning,” it’s that he refused to pitch more than one inning, no matter the situation.

And we know his reasons which I won't repeat. He also said that he would pitch multiple innings in playoff games. In fact he has pitched over 1 IP in two playoff games since the arbitration decision that went against him (he pitched multi-inning games in playoff games prior to his one inning limit days). He pitched 4 outs in the Brewers' 2020 wild card loss to the Dodgers and in game 2 of the 2022 NLDS he pitched a 4 out save for the Padres.

And again, there are other pitchers on the team, it takes everyone. When the Brewers used him in multiple innings that typically meant they rested him for a couple days after. If he is limited to pitching one inning he can be available to pitch two or three days in a row. There's always a give and take.

I also don't know how a player can "refuse" to play without breaching their contract. The employer can demand for the player to be used how they want to use him or take legal steps against him. Clearly the Brewers and Padres never took such a step. If a team were deliberately trying to abuse him physically the player would have a case but if a team used him like every other reliever there's not a lot he can do about it.

To me it sounds an awful lot like the teams agreed to use him in the role he preferred.

On 2/9/2024 at 10:29 PM, monty57 said:

It wasn’t a secret to the Brewers, and it wasn’t a secret to the fans that the Brewers didn’t like it.

I don't recall ever hearing a quote from a Brewers manager, coach or front office representative where they directly said they didn't "like" it or were upset in any way about the parameters of Hader's usage. If you'd like to provide a direct quote I'd be interested to see it. I have heard CC talk about it and never had the impression there was a major rift or disagreement there.

On 2/9/2024 at 10:29 PM, monty57 said:

So if a guy refused to run out grounders because it would decrease the chance of pulling a muscle, and running out grounders won’t help his stats for arby, that’s alright? Maybe an OF who stops running at the warning track so he doesn’t hurt himself by hitting the wall?

And now we've wandered into the land of the absurd. Fun.

Don't know if you have but I've witnessed pitchers bat and not run out grounders as hard as they could and it was fully understood that it was by order of the manager to prevent unnecessary injury. If MVP Yelich was playing through an injury (sore back, ribs, knee) and the manager asked him not to crash into walls or dive for catches I don't think there'd be a significant number of fans that would gripe about it. Healthy players are preferred, always. Even Josh Hader. It's why I suspect that despite speculation that the team didn't "like" his preference to exclusively pitch 3 outs they didn't push too hard against it because it is a way to minimize injury risk which works both for the player and the team. This team famously kept Corbin Burnes from pitching the ninth inning of a no-hitter because of pitch count superstitions.

On 2/9/2024 at 10:29 PM, monty57 said:

Finally, there is no maximum of three outs for a save.

I said "at maximum" which implies the 1 or 2 out save.

There were also comments saying that Hader was being selfish. Yes, he was. I never denied that. I just think his reasons are justified. He's earned some criticism, sure. I just fall on the side of not really having an issue with it and I stated my reasons for not judging him too harshly. Nobody is required to agree. I get a bit triggered over what I view as knee jerk reactionary criticism but ultimately people will have a spectrum of opinions. Fair enough.

My feelings about him as a player are mostly indifferent, he's not a Brewer anymore and I am a Brewers fan.

[SeaBass]

On 2/10/2024 at 3:33 PM, Sixtolezcano said:

After signing a mega- contract with the Astro what do you think would happen if Joe Espada put Hader in to pitch the 8th and 9th innings in a regular season game and Hader would refuse to pitch? Would the Astros have every right to suspend without pay? Would Hader have any way or say in the matter without any compensation? Questions to ponder.

I said this in one of my previous posts:

On 2/9/2024 at 7:56 PM, SeaBass said:

Heck, now that he's finally signed that big contract it's possible he eases the restriction since he is now set for life whether he gets injured or not.

I agree with @TURBO, they likely discussed his usage in contract negotiations.

I also had a speculation about "refusing" to pitch in certain situations in my post right above this one. I don't think he's refusing per se, I think he and management of the teams he's played for have discussed it and came to an agreement rather than it being simply a straight refusal on his part. I think teams would have liked him to be more open to pitching multiple innings but in the grand scheme there are pros and cons to doing that just like there are pros and cons to adhering to a static one inning only policy.

[Jopal78]

Once you realize 97% of pro baseball players (and their agents) do not care  where they ply their trade, as long as the money is right, none  of this matters. 
 

Fans might be dumb and refuse to believe,  but every MLB player who stacks success at a young age like Hader, likely has the date they can file for free agency circled on their calendar. Obviously the one exception is some Latin players who signed as teenagers for Pennies on the dollar compared to what top draft picks born in America get. 

The simple truth is Hader plays a game for money, and his career as a player will most assuredly be over in ten years or less. He’d be foolish to not try to secure as much guaranteed money as he can while he has incredible earning capacity. 

[AdvantageSchneider]

On 2/9/2024 at 9:05 AM, liveforoctober said:

I think we are a little hypocritical as fans though when we blame someone for "not being a team player" "not making winning plays" ... and then in the very next thread be arguing over whether Gary Sanchez deserves a roster spot because his OPS is percentage points lower than this next player..

I'm not sure why that's hypocritical.